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refusing to use safeword - 4/7/2007 2:57:04 PM   
CreativeOwner18


Posts: 12
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline 		In my experinces as a dom ive ran across a few subs that refuse to use a safeword when they are beyond there limits because they are trying to please me regardless of how much they are suffering. I mean i could cut off there arm with a meat cleaver and they would offer there other one up to be chopped off as well instead of using a safe word.

I have to persuade them and coach them, almost pressure them into using there safeword and they always say it with such displeasure, like they are failing me. Its so hard to train these some into accepting there are limits and they have the right to use the word when they need to and not go beyond what they can handle.

am i the only one whom has encountered this problem? does anyone have any suggestions for these situations?
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RE: refusing to use safeword - 4/7/2007 3:06:39 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Yes.  Get to know your submissive inside and out, eliminate the safeword, and rely on general communication instead. 

My Master was my first experience with BDSM.  I never had a safeword.  I was, and still am, required to report to him by way of detailed journal, after every time he uses me, no matter how hard or how mild.  Through this, he can pretty well predict exactly how far he can push me, and what's going on in my head at the time.  He has also come to gauge my reactions - a mere eye flicker will catch his attention, or a change in yelp, etc.  And the few times I felt I was in trouble, the only thing that came to my mind anyway was to shriek out the body part I thought was in danger.

I believe safewords give a false sense of security, as opposed to knowing your subject intimately.

Then again, this is simply my experience; others will have different opinions.  There are those who play casually, without intimacy, and I suspect safewords would work well in such situations.

There's always the idea of requiring your submissive to use it, and letting her know she is disobeying by not.

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RE: refusing to use safeword - 4/7/2007 3:18:08 PM   
mydezire


Posts: 7
Joined: 2/4/2007
Status: offline 		When one truly trust the other there really isn't a need for a safeword. That it is good to get know the sub inside and out.

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RE: refusing to use safeword - 4/7/2007 3:18:32 PM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline 		where's the problem?

You make the rules, you want them to use a safeword. If they don't follow your rules then you don't play with them.

As to the comments about moving to a time when you don't have to use a safeword... that's all well & good but it doesn't address the question being asked. Not all play/training styles HAVE to move toward a time when no safeword is used. I personally don't use one but that is beside the point.

Point is... he's the top in the scene & it should go down like he says & if by gosh he wants his bottom to utilize a safeword in their training then they are defying his authority buy not doing so.... period.

< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 4/7/2007 3:56:30 PM >

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RE: refusing to use safeword - 4/7/2007 3:24:04 PM   
CreativeOwner18


Posts: 12
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Yes.  Get to know your submissive inside and out, eliminate the safeword, and rely on general communication instead. 

My Master was my first experience with BDSM.  I never had a safeword.  I was, and still am, required to report to him by way of detailed journal, after every time he uses me, no matter how hard or how mild.  Through this, he can pretty well predict exactly how far he can push me, and what's going on in my head at the time.  He has also come to gauge my reactions - a mere eye flicker will catch his attention, or a change in yelp, etc.  And the few times I felt I was in trouble, the only thing that came to my mind anyway was to shriek out the body part I thought was in danger.

I believe safewords give a false sense of security, as opposed to knowing your subject intimately.

Then again, this is simply my experience; others will have different opinions.  There are those who play casually, without intimacy, and I suspect safewords would work well in such situations.

There's always the idea of requiring your submissive to use it, and letting her know she is disobeying by not.


but thats the problem. i do as well ask for a diary but i also have them have a safeword that for whatever reason they know they can stop, and i learn them inside and out and thats what im saying, is when i know i am pushing beyond there limits they still refuse to use the safeword, im trying to get them into the habit that its okay to use it but they dont want to. they dont want me to stop my pleasure for them, how can i make them understand that its okay to use it when they need too and to actualy do it when they need to instead of continueing to go on and on and on no madder how hard it is for them.

edit: also for passion, i love the 2 girls i currently have. im not just going to dump them because something comes along that isnt perfect. what kind of master would i be if i didnt try to train them and just abandoned my girls at the first glimpse of some trouble?


< Message edited by CreativeOwner18 -- 4/7/2007 3:26:05 PM >

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RE: refusing to use safeword - 4/7/2007 3:33:47 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeOwner18

I have to persuade them and coach them, almost pressure them into using there safeword and they always say it with such displeasure, like they are failing me. Its so hard to train these some into accepting there are limits and they have the right to use the word when they need to and not go beyond what they can handle.


You do realize that some people play to a point that a Bottom will not be able to use a safe word or anything for that matter.

You do realize that to try to persuade, coach and pressure such individuals is setting them up to fail and will do more harm to the situation.

You do realize that the Top shares in the responsibility to stop the play when they see it's too much for the Bottom to go any farther.

If they feel like the fail you because they use a safe word.. it would seem you are failing them.

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: refusing to use safeword - 4/7/2007 3:37:37 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeOwner18

but thats the problem. ...


um no... here is where the problem is

quote:


is when i know i am pushing beyond there limits they still refuse to use the safeword,


and this is how you failing them as well.

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: refusing to use safeword - 4/7/2007 3:45:36 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		One of the many reasons I don't support the use of safewords.


http://www.collarchat.com/m_600704/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#600756
forgetting the safeword

http://www.collarchat.com/m_563513/mpage_2/key_safeword/tm.htm#563814
Safeword usage over time

http://www.collarchat.com/m_355604/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#355604
Safewords are NOT for novices!

http://www.collarchat.com/m_232414/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#232414
safewords?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_228130/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#228130
safeword

http://www.collarchat.com/m_137937/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#137937
Forcing your sub to safeword?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_131432/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#131432
Safe words

http://www.collarchat.com/m_93603/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#93603
Overuse of a safeword?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_69981/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#69981
safewords not allowed?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_14335/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#14335
should a slave in training be allowed safewords?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_668940/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#669011
The use of safewords

http://www.collarchat.com/m_679370/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#679401
safe words:  To use or not to use



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RE: refusing to use safeword - 4/7/2007 3:52:08 PM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeOwner18

edit: also for passion, i love the 2 girls i currently have. im not just going to dump them because something comes along that isnt perfect. what kind of master would i be if i didnt try to train them and just abandoned my girls at the first glimpse of some trouble?



Who said dump them... I said don't play with them. If they want to play bad enough then you tell them by gosh it won't happen until they follow your rules, your training methods. For you to continue playing with them after they defy your authority you have just allowed them to turn the tables & it is you that now serve them in the manner that they wish to be played with. This may not be what they wanted but you haven't done anything to stop it.

who is training who


< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 4/7/2007 3:54:59 PM >

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MstrssPassion


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RE: refusing to use safeword - 4/7/2007 4:00:32 PM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline 		here is a copy of what I said:

"You make the rules, you want them to use a safeword. If they don't follow your rules then you don't play with them."

Plain, simple & to the point. How did you some how misunderstand this to read "Dump them".

Communication is essential & if you misread simple, direct comments,  such as the one I offered you above, then you might be lacking the ability to effectively communicate more complex & elaborate exchanges.

Think about it

< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 4/7/2007 4:03:39 PM >

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MstrssPassion


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RE: refusing to use safeword - 4/7/2007 4:37:12 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeOwner18
but thats the problem. i do as well ask for a diary but i also have them have a safeword that for whatever reason they know they can stop, and i learn them inside and out and thats what im saying, is when i know i am pushing beyond there limits they still refuse to use the safeword, im trying to get them into the habit that its okay to use it but they dont want to.


Some questions, if I may:

Why would you ever push beyond what they could handle?

As for pursuading and coaxing and pressuring them - do they not just follow orders? 

And who said anything about dumping them?

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Good is the enemy of great.

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RE: refusing to use safeword - 4/7/2007 4:46:29 PM   
Kinkypupper


Posts: 713
Joined: 9/26/2004
From: Portland oregon
Status: offline 		Some submissives feel saying a safeword is like "a cop out" and some when you take them that far just have no comprehension.
thats why YOU need to know them sometimes better then they know themselves

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Portland Oregon

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RE: refusing to use safeword - 4/7/2007 4:55:56 PM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		Since they feel that using safewords is equivalent to failing you, don't give them a safeword. Instead have them tell you on a scale of one to ten how intense the pain is. One being she could sleep through it and ten being the most she can take. And then you need to ask her whenever she clenches or changes yelps where on the scale she is. She won't be able to space and answer but for the learning curve no subspace.

Some of us can't talk at all at certain points, I can't if I'm deeply spaced and I also can't talk if things go bad. Because of this he's learned to read my body language. If I'm relaxed and limp everything's fine, if my body gets rigid and frozen with hunched shoulders then something's gone drastically wrong and I need help. But instead of you waiting for her to volunteer information, ask for it.

Ask "do you like that", ask "can you take one more", ask if she's in need of stopping. Once she's used to giving feedback it will be easier for her to initiate it. So teach her to give feedback by asking for it and pay attention to what you get.

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RE: refusing to use safeword - 4/7/2007 6:54:20 PM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		As someone who has yet to safeword, even when things became difficult, I'd like to put forth another reason why some of us don't - or at least why I don't/haven't.

My focus isn't so much on trying to please him, although it admittedly is a component. My focus is usually that I've just fallen out of pace with what he's doing and I am working hard on "catching up." There is this mind set of "I've taken this much, maybe, just maybe, I can take a bit more." And so I attempt it.

Fortunately for me, he's taken a long time to play that hard with me and despite my desire to go farther, do more, he is more than aware when I've reached my limit and stops without a safeword.

I never really hit subspace, so I am generally present in the moment. The thing is, once we're done THAT'S when I kind of disappear for a while, so...thankfully, he pushes me hard and knows when to stop, cause I'd just want to keep on going - even though it's probably not the best idea.

juliet

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RE: refusing to use safeword - 4/7/2007 7:30:33 PM   
bayboundse


Posts: 288
Joined: 10/29/2005
From: Oak Ridge, TN
Status: offline 		We do not currently use a safe word. Our play no longer needs one as we know each other well. When we first started seeing each other and tested out our relationship as Master/slave we used a safe word. But after a long time of learning each other safe words became something of the past. We also like the use of ball gags wich kinda put a "kink" (pun intended and not lol) in the use of a safe word. So learning your partners and their limits in pain and play just from their responses is something all should seek.

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RE: refusing to use safeword - 4/7/2007 7:53:51 PM   
sweekles


Posts: 1
Joined: 4/7/2007
Status: offline 		hm. two girlies. might they be in competition with each other, whether consciously so or not? so neither wants to be the first one to 'be a wuss.' (sic; not my judgement on sw use, merely a guess at the topical situ)

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RE: refusing to use safeword - 4/7/2007 8:01:41 PM   
N4SDChastity


Posts: 327
Joined: 2/27/2006
Status: offline 		One practice I use to use, back when I "played" in Germany, was to cache the "safe" word in how they responded.  For instance:  Although they were NEVER permitted to tell me "No," for fear of permanently ending our association, if I asked for a particular thing to be done (doesn't matter what, and I'm hoping you guys are able to generalize, here), the expected response was, "Yes, My Prince."  If that which I asked wasn't something they wanted to do, but were WILLING to do to please me, the expected answer was, "Only if it pleases you, My Prince."  If there was a chance that they were willing to end our relationship because of something I asked of them, and NO frikkin way they'd do it unless I ABSOUTELY insited (the implication being that they WOULD perform or I was through with them), the expected answer was. "NOT unless it pleases you, My Prince."  It allowed a free exchange of information while maintaining the D/s dynamic.  In this way I was able to define and determine limits without forcing an issue.  During play I habitually monitor my pets, visually and verbally.  If there is something going on that prevents a sub/slave from responding verbally (ball gag, dental-dam, my d1<k), I generaly use a hankerchief, placed in her hand.  If it falls free voluntarily or involuntairly, playtime ends, then and there.  Again, I get to find out what the limit is without conflict since, even IF they're trying to "endure" for MY pleasure/favors, involuntairly releasing the hanky lets me know I've hit a HARD limit.

My $0.02

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RE: refusing to use safeword - 4/7/2007 9:00:17 PM   
oneofliberty


Posts: 7
Joined: 4/6/2007
Status: offline 		I have a safeword with my Master, and when he gave it I told him I would never use it, and I stand by that. Yes I know it is there and if I really really really REALLY (you get the point) had to then I would use, it, but I would feel like I was letting myself and my Master down by doing this. I want him to push me, I don't want an easy way out.
I trust my Master enough that he would know where my true boundries were and not go over them to far, he knows this and yet he still gave me the word, I respect that it is there but we both never wish for it to be used.

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RE: refusing to use safeword - 4/7/2007 9:19:33 PM   
Noah


Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeOwner18

but thats the problem. ...


um no... here is where the problem is

quote:


is when i know i am pushing beyond there limits they still refuse to use the safeword,


and this is how you failing them as well.



Can you flesh out this last claim, Knight? It seems to imply that to push someone beyond her limits (if they're there) is to fail her. Is this your contention?



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RE: refusing to use safeword - 4/7/2007 9:37:50 PM   
N4SDChastity


Posts: 327
Joined: 2/27/2006
Status: offline 		I think he meant to post in the crying thread...

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