RE: A nation out of control (Full Version)

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darkinshadows -> RE: A nation out of control (4/29/2005 10:50:06 AM)

quote:

so, if we don't agree with your ideas we are not thinking? you're praying for people to think ....perhaps you forgot to add "like me" at the end of that sentence.


No. I have ideas. You have ideas. Maybe we do not agree, however, that is the beauty of discussion. What is right for me, is not right for another.

I did not say that you are not thinking, you just said I am. If I had wanted to add 'like you' to the end of the sentance, then I would have. But that would have changed the sentance entirely and would have been a personal slur on you. And I had not singled you out. So I would be grateful if you did not place words that are not meant to be in my sentance.
quote:

that's exactly what you were doing in previous posts....placing the blame on the U.S., maybe you didn't come right out and say it in so many words but your insinuations were quite clear.


It is not my place to blame. So I do not do such. Again, I would be grateful that you did not insist on quoting me for doing something I have not done.

But what I do believe is that people who cast stones should first examine their own history first. I think you will see in my previous posts, how I feel about my own 'countries' history and understand that consequences occur, however, you have failed to mention this.

And before you state that I may be casting stones about America, I am not. I am only placing across another view, which may or not be my own.

I have my ideals and views. You have yours. Just because we do not agree, doesn't mean I would attack you personally, we would just agree to disagree.

I do have difficulty when people try to put words into my mouth in an attempt to nullify what I have written and defend their position, when I am quite capable of voicing my own views without having a need to justify them because as I have said before, that which is right, needs no defending.

And I do, take issue with the views of perfection and saviours, when history speaks for itself.



CTclay -> RE: A nation out of control (4/30/2005 8:24:27 AM)

dark-angel

I no longer have the energy to point out the many, many points at which one statement you make is completely inconstistent with some other statement. I think anyone who reads through just your own postings here can see it. I feel like I'm responding to different people, all using the same name.

dark-angel, a real argument provides both a clear conclusion and your reasons for holding it (statements of fact or principle connected by reasoning). It addresses opposing arguments rather than dismissing them or dismissing the people who hold them.

And you probably think that this is an attack, when everything I've just said is a criticism of what you've done, not who you are. There IS a difference.

I've tried, but I'm afraid you're not worth responding to.



darkinshadows -> RE: A nation out of control (4/30/2005 12:32:19 PM)

quote:

dark-angel, a real argument provides both a clear conclusion


In your opinion maybe...

But it is a good thing I do not argue then, isn't it?
[:D]

A wise man from Tibet once said 'Fools, argue - the reasoned, discuss'

Peace and Love



ruffnecksbabygir -> RE: A nation out of control (5/1/2005 1:44:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CTclay

dark-angel

I no longer have the energy to point out the many, many points at which one statement you make is completely inconstistent with some other statement. I think anyone who reads through just your own postings here can see it. I feel like I'm responding to different people, all using the same name.

dark-angel, a real argument provides both a clear conclusion and your reasons for holding it (statements of fact or principle connected by reasoning). It addresses opposing arguments rather than dismissing them or dismissing the people who hold them.

And you probably think that this is an attack, when everything I've just said is a criticism of what you've done, not who you are. There IS a difference.

I've tried, but I'm afraid you're not worth responding to.



enough said.



Youtalkingtome -> RE: A nation out of control (5/1/2005 6:12:34 PM)

dark~angel I know what I am talking about is not recent history but I felt it should be said.
The reason that the A bombs were dropped on Japan was that a German sub was found and brought to the surface off the coast of Maine after the Germans gave up.It was headed for Japan with the German nuclear technology on board.It was to be used in two weeks by the Japanese.So the U.S. dropped are own A bombs on Japan.
The town I was born in has a small airport on the American Canadian border.Before the U.S. was officially in the war because people didn't want to be in a war they would fly new planes to the airport and tow them up the hill.The hill was in Canada.Then the Canadians would fly them to England to fight over there.Most Americans don't even know this.
But I am not upset with you at all.
I have found in the past that most, not all subs/slaves are against war and freedom. And most Doms/Masters feel that freedom is worth fighting for.
We are the protectors of those who don't want to fight.



darkinshadows -> RE: A nation out of control (5/1/2005 6:30:44 PM)

Greetings Youtalkingtome

I have nothing but respect for those that fight for their country and believe without hesitation in freedom.

As for Americans during the war, one of my grandfathers closest friends in the RAF was an American who volunteered to fight before the USA'offically' joined. So I do know that there were Americans fighting for freedom, off their own backs, for something they believed in.

But I do believe that if war is to be fought, then the truth should be told, rather than lies to 'try ' to get people onto the governments side. Only today, there are documents brought to light that our governments lied, to try and justify war.

Sure, I am against war - and I maybe idealistic.
But even more, I am against liars and people who manipulate the truth. People crave honesty - what is so different in wanting honesty from those in government also?

As for the subs/slaves/Dominants and war - yes... we wish freedom and yes at times it might be at a price - but at least we can do it honestly.

I do not need a 'protector' because I don't wish to fight - What I need is to hear the truth.

Peace and Love



onceburned -> RE: A nation out of control (5/1/2005 7:09:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Youtalkingtome
I have found in the past that most, not all subs/slaves are against war and freedom. And most Doms/Masters feel that freedom is worth fighting for.


This is a interesting claim. But I do not know how to test whether it is true or false.

Certainly I am a submissive and I served honorably in the military. I feel that freedom is worth fighting for. Choice is fundamental to what we do - in our kink as well as in our wider lives.



stef -> RE: A nation out of control (5/1/2005 9:50:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

quote:

ORIGINAL: Youtalkingtome
I have found in the past that most, not all subs/slaves are against war and freedom. And most Doms/Masters feel that freedom is worth fighting for.


This is a interesting claim. But I do not know how to test whether it is true or false.

Yes, It's truly a dilemma. Testing baseless, fabricated statistics is always problematic.

~stef



Pavel -> RE: A nation out of control (5/1/2005 11:05:56 PM)

I initally had planned to make this an intelligent post, but given the 30 odd pages I've written for my poli sci 400ish classes in the last 4 days (yeah, I know, I'm sure someone out there has written much more, but not useing my brain), I'm not sure I'm going to make a whole lot of sense.

Anyways.

As to the original post. The United States is hardly the most moral nation in the world. Before some smug bastard out there decides that grants his/her nation some kind of higher moral ground, it doesn't. There are no countries without dirty laundry. (and as an aside, before someone suggests Vatican City, read up on the Papal States please.) Time and time again we support people who are nasty evil folks because they're our nasty evil folks, or they're somehow useful to us for the short term. Why? Because it's often a realistic solution to a realist world. Idealism is fine, idealism is great, idealism wouldn't stop an angry old lady at your gates. What has idealism done? I'm sure when the Kellog-Briand pact was signed, it made lots of sense, but what value did that piece of paper have once someone decided it didn't matter? Did that lil piece of paper actually make war illegal? It might have, but did that matter when the rubber hit the road, or as the case was, did that paper stop the Panzers at the Polish border?

We use nasty evil people because they are useful tools sometimes. The squeeky clean upstanding moral sort rarely has the skills and contacts we need for our own nasty work. I suppose what I'm getting to is this, nations only act within moral rules and standards if they either stand to gain from that compliance, or the consequences of violateing those standards are so dire that it's not worth the effort.

Anyways, I'm certainly not a fan of keeping an airline bomber as a guest of the US. I do think we should have deported him once we'd used him up....

And ok, my paper on globalism and strategy has sapped my will to continue typing. bleh.



pantera -> RE: A nation out of control (5/2/2005 5:59:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CTclay

quote:

When the government and individuals of a nation cry 'terrorist' and mock 'others patriotism' and scaremonger another nations 'nucular potential & threat' and are the only nation to ever decide to drop it on unarmed, individuals civilians (and their own).


So dark angel, because we dropped the atom and hydrogen bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we have no right to be concerned when terrorist-loving dictators also happen to have an itch to get nuclear weapons?

Those bombs we dropped saved far more lives than were lost. We dropped a lot of bombs in Germany, too, which saved the asses of people in England.

Sorry if I seem angry when you sneer at the efforts of my government and country to protect ourselves and others from some of the most evil people on the face of the earth. I'm just so gauche, so unchic, so untrendy, and really, those are the most important things, aren't they.



that's my boy CT!

people don't worry about how many lives those bombs saved, or even the fact that there was a Pearl Harbor before that. Maybe some of us wouldn't be here today...

About relativity in who and who is not a terrorist: just like with anything else, there is "grey" in everything... but it is always more clear and easier to see that there is WHITE and BLACK, right and wrong....some conveniently oversee the contrast-

I personally praise our government for doing what they are supposed to do: ACT AND PROTECT THE NATION.... the same people who criticize Bush for going to war would criticize him for not going.






onceburned -> RE: A nation out of control (5/2/2005 8:03:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pavel
We use nasty evil people because they are useful tools sometimes. The squeeky clean upstanding moral sort rarely has the skills and contacts we need for our own nasty work. .


Yes. In an NPR interview regarding Luis Posada Carriles, someone noted that "You are not going to find a saint who is willing to do this kind of work." This was in reference to the U.S. asking Posada to oversee the guerilla activities against the Sandinista government of Nicaraugua.

Goverment foreign policy is based upon self-interest. Rarely are policies purely idealistic. Sometimes policy objectives are not very moral or upstanding and the government must use people who are 'dirty'.

But where does the U.S. obligation to 'he's a dirty bastard, but he is our dirty bastard' stop?



darkinshadows -> RE: A nation out of control (5/2/2005 9:01:58 AM)

I just see the irony in a country who dropped bombs, trying to remove the same from others I guess.

quote:

people don't worry about how many lives those bombs saved


or how many lives were lost

quote:

Maybe some of us wouldn't be here today...


Lives are already lost. But that isn't our concern, is it?

quote:

I personally praise our government for doing what they are supposed to do:


Protect their country? Their people? Yup... all these are firm, beautiful codes, but I do wonder about the 'pick and choose' policy.

As has been mentioned by others, countries support and withdraw support when it suits and is the governments best interest. If you are going to go to war with a country, at least have the decency to use the truth of why.

Peace and Love



Pavel -> RE: A nation out of control (5/2/2005 10:57:40 AM)

One must always ask, why did we build and drop the atomic bombs? The answer is to stop such devices in the hands of others from being used on ourselves, and then to end the bloodiest most destructive war in history (one can argue that Japan was months or days from surrender anyways, but the Americans weren't aware of that, and given what we'd seen so far, it was easy to expect all of Japan to be doing the fighting to the death).

Pakistan and India have the bomb with the intent to use them if it's strategically adventagous in retakeing Kashmire. They're both only stiffled by a sort of mini-MAD between those two states. Iran wants the bomb to it can have the final trump card in any circumstances, and North Korea is trying to use it as blackmail to get sanctions lifted, so the Korean people can suffer through yet another half a century of "leadership."

We dropped the bomb with the intention to end a war, and the only reason we saw such a proliferation of such weapons was to counter the Soviet ones (granted, they had theirs to counter the few we had intitally, but that's the tragic comedy in arms races). We've just moved beyond the phase of human history in which the end of civilization in 20 minutes or your money back was a reality, and I think we'd rather not slip back into the mindset.



CTclay -> RE: A nation out of control (5/2/2005 4:15:24 PM)

quote:

But where does the U.S. obligation to 'he's a dirty bastard, but he is our dirty bastard' stop?


Actually, I don't think that's a hard question. Getting a get-out-of-jail card for committing crimes is not part of the deal with our bastards. They aren't supposed to commit atrocities while we're employing them, and if they do, they shouldn't have any expectation we'd look the other way.

If, afterward, they spit on the sidewalk, they deserve a ticket; hit a guy, get charged with assault; murder, get charged with it; commit an atrocity or act of terrorism, go before a court of law. I think our courts are allowed to try terrorism cases, even if they don't take place in the U.S., but if only foreigners were affected, I don't know -- that may be a dilemma. If the guy is credibly charged, we should arrest him and try him. I wouldn't ever give him over to a kangaroo court. Unless we were damn certain that he was guilty of an atrocity and there was no other way. But if that were the case, I'd have no problem with the CIA putting a bullet through his brain. As long as it wasn't done in the territory of the U.S.

I think the interesting moral questions come when you decide how to weigh using some bastard who's somewhat better than another candidate for a covert job, but who is more likely to be criminal. I think that's where it may get complicated. You probably just have to tote up how many lives you're likely to save by giving money or guns to some guy who might use either to kill innocents. That's a nasty judgment call.



CTclay -> RE: A nation out of control (5/2/2005 4:25:44 PM)

quote:

Yes, It's truly a dilemma. Testing baseless, fabricated statistics is always problematic.


Hey, take another look at what he said, sfgrrl. If you read what he actually said, he wasn't offering a statistic, just mentioning what he'd encountered in his own experience, and he even said he was generalizing. There's nothing baseless about anecdotal evidence. I'd love to know how you're certain that what he said is fabricated.

quote:

I have found in the past that most, not all subs/slaves are against war and freedom. And most Doms/Masters feel that freedom is worth fighting for.


I don't think it's unreasonable that people with submissive or dominant tendencies might have different views on life that affect philosophical or political views. Certain ethnic groups tend to vote the same way. Men and women, in general, have somewhat different politics, and it's been measured in poll after poll. Why not subs and doms?



onceburned -> RE: A nation out of control (5/2/2005 4:57:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CTclay
quote:

I have found in the past that most, not all subs/slaves are against war and freedom. And most Doms/Masters feel that freedom is worth fighting for.


I don't think it's unreasonable that people with submissive or dominant tendencies might have different views on life that affect philosophical or political views. Certain ethnic groups tend to vote the same way. Men and women, in general, have somewhat different politics, and it's been measured in poll after poll. Why not subs and doms?


I think there is merit in subs and doms having different outlooks. But in Youtalkingtome's quote he made two different comparisons:
1. favoring or opposing war.
2. fighting for or not fighting for freedom

I would not be surprised if, in general, subs tended to be more pacifistic and dom/mes more hawkish. Who knows, subs might be more willing to be conciliatory. This actually might make an interesting study - if anyone in the academic community is reading this.

But to say that subs value liberty less than dominants... that seems a stretch. I think that subs would be just as willing to fight for freedom if someone wanted to steal from them.



CTclay -> RE: A nation out of control (5/2/2005 6:56:52 PM)

quote:

But to say that subs value liberty less than dominants... that seems a stretch.


Well, OK, I can agree it's a stretch. I guess I discounted the exact language because it seemed to be more of a poorly worded shorthand on the part of Youtalkingtome. But Sfgrrl (stef) didn't seem to be objecting to that ... if you go by stef's exact language. ...



SenorX -> RE: A nation out of control (5/2/2005 11:31:49 PM)

I must side with ruffnecksbabygirl on this... to a certain point. politcal correctness is only deemed for a select few groups of minorities who apparently have the exclusive on crying 'discrimination'. If you are latino or asian, it's ok to be discriminated against... even by the very jews and blacks that have ancestrally experienced sterotypical racial discriminatory slurs.

In having daily matters involving hispanics in My area, I strongly resent those 'americans' who have the nerve to talk about illegal aliens, when they themselves are products of illegal aliens much more so than the 'mexicans' (around here anybody who is hispanic is automatically considered mexican) who are more native Americans than the ones who crossed a body of water (the atlantic ocean [ so european americans are 'wetbacks' too, actually]) to escape persecution, prosecution, and poverty (oh, so aren't the 'mexicans' doing the very same thing that most european WASP americans did or their ancestors did already?) . So, yes, there definitely exists a double standard here. And I maybe in the minority, but I applaud ruffnecksbabygirl for her vociferous convictions.

Best Regards,

X



SenorX -> RE: A nation out of control (5/2/2005 11:45:30 PM)

BTW... just a little food for thought.... We are allegedly fighting a war against terrorism and terrorists... Why then do We continue our dependence on foreign oil, buying that foreign oil from the very countries that allegedly support the terrorists? Why, with us having the technology in place (for well over 1/2 a century already) for realistic and practical applications of alternative fuels, do we still allow ourselves to be dependent on that very same foreign oil, thereby supporting the very terrorists which we are allegedly fighting????

Best Regards,

X



Youtalkingtome -> RE: A nation out of control (5/3/2005 8:54:31 PM)

onceburned,
You separated the two just like dark~angel might have.
I believe you can't have freedom with out war.Because someone will want to take that freedom and in order to keep it you must fight.
So they are different but go together. You can't have one with out the other.
So CT Clay was right about me.
In my first posts on this site I had said that I had done much research on the internet for my own purpose.Internet dating,vanilla and BDSM personals.About four years worth.
To make a long story short I have enough information to write a book but I am not going to do that.That was not the purpose.The purpose was to find a woman for me and I encountered many,many internet scams.
So what I said is based on what I have found.You don't have to believe me.But If I had wrote a book and sold it in book stores then you may believe it.
So maybe all who reads this should stop and think about their sources of information.
And a question for dark~angel,
Since you don't like war or the U.S. what do you think of the U.N. ?



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