"Bush returns to work on immigration plan"

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Vendaval -> "Bush returns to work on immigration plan" (4/9/2007 3:11:07 PM)
"Bush returns to work on immigration plan" By BEN FELLER, Associated Press Writer 37 minutes ago " YUMA, Ariz. - President Bush visited the U.S.-Mexico border Monday to tout a guest worker program for immigrants, pursuing a key domestic policy goal despite chilly relations with Congress. The trip, a bookend to the visit that Bush made to the same southwest desert city last May, comes as tension rises over a new immigration proposal tied to the White House. Bush's team is privately working hard to rally votes for what Bush calls comprehensive reform — a mix of get-tough security with promises of fair treatment for undocumented residents." http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070409/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush

popeye1250 -> RE: "Bush returns to work on immigration plan" (4/9/2007 3:20:36 PM)
Man, that Bush just does not fuckin listen, does he? More than 90% of Americans want our immigration laws enforced and he STILL doesn't get it.

caitlyn -> RE: "Bush returns to work on immigration plan" (4/9/2007 3:43:56 PM)
I hope he can work out a compromise, and get some badly needed legislation past. This would be a good first step towards securing our borders, while not bankrupting parts of the country.

Mercnbeth -> RE: "Bush returns to work on immigration plan" (4/9/2007 3:49:48 PM)
The "Boycott" is on! Just like last year the activists for the legalizing criminal activity group will be soliciting a boycott of all goods and services on May 1, 2007. To advance their cause they will tell their children not to be educated that day. To not buy any product, to not show up for work. Here is the 2007 campaign for a day without an immigrant: quote: A national day of multi-ethnic unity with youth, labor, peace and justice communities in solidarity with immigrant workers and building new immigrant rights & civil rights movement!Source: http://www.immigrantsolidarity.org/ A great day to shop till you drop, perhaps at a Wal-Mart. We'll be having our 2nd annual Merc & beth "Day at a Mexican Restaurant" party in Redondo Beach. Our friends, Mexican immigrants who came here legally jumping through all the hoops the USA put in front of them, have a great place on the Redondo pier and we buy the 1st round for anyone coming in to support legal businesses and legal workers. Although it will be a great day, it's a pity we can't have an entire month devoid of the criminal employees and their exploited, albeit criminal, workers. Think about it, if we didn't have these criminals in our country the majority of the homeless unemployed would have even more job openings than they have now. Without being able to pay criminals a below "fair" wage employers would have to raise wages to attract workers. Who are the people who support the 'status quo' or want to legalize criminal activity? Both political parties. President Bush and Senator Kennedy both support amnesty in some form. Their common background of privilege must see no harm or problem in these criminals getting in front of the line ahead of the 100,000's waiting in the long line that is common experience for legal USA immigration. The next level of support comes from the criminal Corporations hiring these workers. Actually that's only really one source. The money paid to the politicians by these Corporation produces the politics regarding this issue. It will be interesting to see how many will support the politics of President Bush and Senator Kennedy or the Corporations, whose best interests, they represent on this matter.

caitlyn -> RE: "Bush returns to work on immigration plan" (4/9/2007 3:58:40 PM)
Have you read the early draft of the proposal? It doesn't seem to grant any amnesty to those already here. The proposal is actually pretty tough, which I suppose is why it has a chance at success.

Mercnbeth -> RE: "Bush returns to work on immigration plan" (4/9/2007 4:07:42 PM)
caitlyn, Yes, I was speaking in generalities. Over the course of time both parties have made some sort of amnesty a cornerstone of their program. If memory serves this latest President Bush proposal sets a cost of $3,500 as a renewable fee for the workers. My question to him would be; why create another Washington bureaucracy to address a problem solved by simply enforcing the existing laws on the books against the employers? Eliminate the cause and you eliminate the effect. Allow the Mexican government take care of its own citizens and not export our employment problems to their people. The reaction from the illegal aliens supporters is across the board negative to the proposal.

caitlyn -> RE: "Bush returns to work on immigration plan" (4/9/2007 4:24:37 PM)
We have to keep in mind that all this is in the outline stage ... so nobody yet knows exactly what is being proposed (which won't stop many from insisting they do). The Z-Visa looks to have pretty tight controls. You have to prove you have been here ten years, and had gainful employment for that entire time period. The thought seems to be that you will either have enough to pay the fee, or are worth enough to a legitimate American business, that they will pay the fee for you. Keep in mind that it looks like this fee has a three year timetable, and has no provisions for family members. Points of interest, I can't find anything in the outline that allows the family of the workers, any access to the country at all. There is also wage control and the liability of employers to pay for health services of workers. I'm very impressed with the initial outline. To me, it seems like they did a) a good job keeping this a bill about working ... coming here to get a job to help support your family back home ... b) not making this a free ride into America. As to why ... your and Popeye's continual denial that parts of the nation wouldn't suffer greately if these people were just kicked out ... doesn't make you right. Kick these people out, and lots of American citizens are going to lose there jobs in some parts of the country.

Mercnbeth -> RE: "Bush returns to work on immigration plan" (4/9/2007 4:39:06 PM)
quote: As to why ... your and Popeye's continual denial that parts of the nation wouldn't suffer greately if these people were just kicked out ... doesn't make you right. Kick these people out, and lots of American citizens are going to lose there jobs in some parts of the country. caitlyn, You will have to show me how kicking out criminals will put USA citizens out of work. I believe the people who would "suffer greatly" are those exploiting these illegal workers. If that's the case - they SHOULD suffer! Meanwhile, with law enforcement we will know the cost of a quart of strawberries picked by a US citizen or documented worker. If the wages required to facilitate that make the cost go up to $10.00 a quart - it should go up $10.00/quart. There is an interesting parallel in our history. When the argument concerning slavery in pre-Civil War USA got off the moral grounds it was common to make an argument that the cost of goods produced by slave workers would throw the Country into a spirally inflationary economic time. Would you argue that the reason would have been sufficient to support ongoing slavery? In effect thats what these people are. They are slaves to the people who exploit them. Being paid $1/hour is little different than being paid $0 as a slave. People and businesses profiting from the work should face consequence. If I become a people affected by higher prices for goods I'm prepared to face that eventuality. It would be preferred to living in country benefiting from criminal corporate exploitation of illegal workers. I'm prepared to be wrong and will say so, if you can point to legitimate businesses and people, not currently benefiting from illegal hiring, negatively impacted if all illegal workers were eliminated.

farglebargle -> RE: "Bush returns to work on immigration plan" (4/9/2007 5:00:39 PM)
These "Z-Papers" are going to be the closest thing to Legal Slavery since 1865. The way it'll work is that a BOSS will be plenty willing to front the victim the 3500 bucks.. .Hell, here's 4 grand, send the other 500 bucks back to the family. NOW, the Slave owes the Boss 4 thousand dollars, PLUS INTEREST. But it's ok, he'll be able to take it out of his pay. Oh, there's nothing left over? That's ok, we'll loan you a bit to carry you through, and you can run a tab at the Company Store. As you can guess, the principle on the debt will never get paid down, And the total cost to the BOSS is what? 4 grand over 3 years + room & board? I gotta buy me some lettuce farms.

caitlyn -> RE: "Bush returns to work on immigration plan" (4/9/2007 5:17:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth You will have to show me how kicking out criminals will put USA citizens out of work. I believe the people who would "suffer greatly" are those exploiting these illegal workers. If that's the case - they SHOULD suffer! Keep in mind that I've said from the start, that this is a regional problem. The impact in California, is different than the impact in Texas. To me, this is a best part of the proposed proposal [;)] ... it lets the states fix the number of guest worker Visas that will be allowed. In the RGV (Rio Grande Valley), here in Texas, an area with almost no unemployment the local economy is built around these workers. Now, the big businesses that employ them ... you are correct, they are breaking the law. No pity to be had there. What about the restaurant, the Mom & Pop store, the guy that owns one apartment complex, all American citizens, and all SOL if we just "enforce the law" as you put it. Lets go further ... at the large companies that employ these people, who do you suppose supervises them? Further still, what about that small fry American citizen with the lawn care service. I bet he would love to hire citizens to work for him ... but the dynamic set up that he is currentl operating under, was probably in place when he was in the thrid grade. Big business is going to do fine either way. They will raise prices, and people will pay them. Strawberries is an essential ingredient in a strawberry shake. It's the small fry that will get fucked, because the government just can't change the rules in the middle of the game. As an aside, my foster father is an executive for a large Texas corporation that hires many, many illegal workers ... (top three in the state). Workers start at $8 and hour, and have access to Texas Med Clinic, if they are injured on the job. His company spends a huge amount of money, trying to attract legal workers. More than half the ones they hire, never show up for the first day of work. About 20% get their first paycheck, and vanish.

Vendaval -> RE: "Bush returns to work on immigration plan" (4/9/2007 5:37:41 PM)
That makes a greal deal of sense to me. The numbers and types of work varies from state to state. California and Texas both have huge Hispanic populations, legal and illegal. The rest of the South West will also be effected. It is going to be interesting to see the final draft of the proposal. quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Keep in mind that I've said from the start, that this is a regional problem. The impact in California, is different than the impact in Texas. To me, this is a best part of the proposed proposal [;)] ... it lets the states fix the number of guest worker Visas that will be allowed. (/quote]

Vendaval -> RE: "Bush returns to work on immigration plan" (4/9/2007 5:44:02 PM)
Hi Merc, I lived for many years in a city with a high level of legal and illegal immigration, primarily in the agricultural industry. It was not just the farmers and ranchers who benefited from the illegal labor, but many of the landlords, used car dealerships, restaurants, hotels, construction, landscaping, maid services, car detailers, mechanics, etc. Many of the businesses that would be effected are not only the larger ones, but the smaller ones. Many of the smaller businesses will pay illegals below minimum wage and under the table. And it is almost impossible to find a job in that city that did not require you to be bilingual in both Spanish and English because the proportion of Spanish speaking customers and clients is so high.

caitlyn -> RE: "Bush returns to work on immigration plan" (4/9/2007 7:10:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Vendaval And it is almost impossible to find a job in that city that did not require you to be bilingual in both Spanish and English because the proportion of Spanish speaking customers and clients is so high. I noticed that a major portion of the draft put forward, was that people are absolutely required to learn to speak English, to get a work permit longer than 30 days (which don't seem to be renewable). I see this as a major step. It's unrealistic to deny American citizens opportunity to work at even menial jobs, because they don't speak a foreign language.

Griswold -> RE: "Bush returns to work on immigration plan" (4/9/2007 10:04:50 PM)
Merc, I generally follow everything you post, and even when I don't, I always re-read what you wrote and appreciate the fact that your comments are always well thought out, but...I have to disagree (unless of course this doob has caused me to entirely misread your post lol). I don't have time (nor the desire) to debate all the fine points but (and there are certainly many)...with exception, criminals (and yes...I know all illegals are criminals....but you understand my drift), they're here doing work we won't....and fruit is rotting in the fields. True, Ford made a great move in the early 1900's causing his employees to be in a financial position to afford their own products and efforts like that changed the world as we know it...but.... You yourself have argued in favor of WalMart et al....simply because they aren't going away.... Neither are these folks. This isn't an argument for the poor Mexicans who need to come up here to support their families....or an opportunity to make a better life.... They're here illegally...no argument...but they're not going away....in your lifetime or mine...and be assured....a 30 foot, 10 kabillion mile long wall won't keep them out. The whole globilzation feud is over....China, India, Mexico, Brazil, Paraguay, Stalingrad....they all won...they're coming in, whether we rent them an apartment or not. We need to quit fighting them and accept the fact that it's smarter to show them where the local hardware store is, welcome them into our neighborhoods, allow them to legally pay taxes, let them participate in our schools (since we're paying for them to be there anyway) and let them add to what this place has always been about... A chance.... (Which is all most of them are asking for anyways).

Vendaval -> RE: "Bush returns to work on immigration plan" (4/9/2007 10:58:37 PM)
I agree, caitlyn. The ESL classes here are usually full and the demand is only going to be higher. The students usually work during the day and take ESL at night.

UtopianRanger -> RE: "Bush returns to work on immigration plan" (4/9/2007 11:38:44 PM)
quote: We'll be having our 2nd annual Merc & beth "Day at a Mexican Restaurant" party in Redondo Beach. Our friends, Mexican immigrants who came here legally jumping through all the hoops the USA put in front of them, have a great place on the Redondo pier and we buy the 1st round for anyone coming in to support legal businesses and legal workers. Although it will be a great day, it's a pity we can't have an entire month devoid of the criminal employees and their exploited, albeit criminal, workers. Milargo!!!! I can't make it.....but send me the tab and I'll cover the second, third and fourth rounds for such a valiant effort ; } - R

Mercnbeth -> RE: "Bush returns to work on immigration plan" (4/10/2007 7:06:52 AM)
quote: This isn't an argument for the poor Mexicans who need to come up here to support their families....or an opportunity to make a better life.... They're here illegally...no argument...but they're not going away....in your lifetime or mine...and be assured....a 30 foot, 10 kabillion mile long wall won't keep them out. The whole globilzation feud is over....China, India, Mexico, Brazil, Paraguay, Stalingrad....they all won...they're coming in, whether we rent them an apartment or not. Griswold, I am an unabashed 'USA First' person. Surrendering to the pragmatic fact that "they are here"; applies for issues such as Wal-Mart because, like it or not, fundamentally they were created legally, operate legally, and pay taxes - albeit as little as possible. None of these statements can be applied to those in this country illegally. All social services, from the school systems to emergency medical care suffers as a result of non enforcement of our immigration laws. There is an "underground" economy; why allow it to continue when enforcement would be relatively easy? The pressure for the use of tax dollars for social programs is severe. Before adding more money enforce and deport 4-6 Million criminals and reduce the pressure. Work programs for the unemployed, housing for the homeless, reallocation of school funding away from bi-lingual programs all would have a positive impact on USA citizens. In theory our elected official represent USA citizens and should be pushing for other ways to better the conditions of the poor and unfortunate USA citizens. Is there a better, easier way? Believe it or not I am empathetic to those whose country of origin have exporting poor people as there basic social engineering program. Any program I support is based upon enforcement at the employee level. Those here and not responsible for additional criminal activity should simply be deported. The employers should pay the price for deportation. The employers would incur the fines. Ultimately those running the companies would be incarcerated if they continue to hire illegal workers. People can come here now from anywhere. I encourage them to do so. I've personally sponsored a few to work for my company. It is yet another reason I have to be against the legalization of this criminal activity. Why create a 'fast-track' system to facilitate citizenship to a people who have broken the law? Making it easier for those who broke the law the longest makes no sense. It would be as if you got away with not paying your taxes for 10 years and getting an achievement certificate, but if you only were caught cheating twice you go to jail. How many other ongoing criminal activities could be expunged if the criminal was given credit for the time he/she got away with the activity. Thank you for your perspective. I hope I have clarified mine.

popeye1250 -> RE: "Bush returns to work on immigration plan" (4/10/2007 10:42:28 AM)
What the hell is the problem with this govt? If they can't or won't enforce the laws on the books now how is another "program" supposed to help? And who is supposed to manage this? Are they going to hire another 100-300,000 people to Administer this new "program?" This is real simple stuff, enforce the laws on the books now!

Griswold -> RE: "Bush returns to work on immigration plan" (4/10/2007 6:28:28 PM)
As always...you make some good points.

cyberdude611 -> RE: "Bush returns to work on immigration plan" (4/10/2007 6:37:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 What the hell is the problem with this govt? If they can't or won't enforce the laws on the books now how is another "program" supposed to help? And who is supposed to manage this? Are they going to hire another 100-300,000 people to Administer this new "program?" This is real simple stuff, enforce the laws on the books now! But enforcing the laws on the books now causes two problems... 1. It interferes with Bush's dream of a North American Union. 2. It is bad for business.

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