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RE: Manipulation. - 4/20/2005 4:44:11 AM

EmeraldSlave2

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

In my world, testing is the same as manipulation- it's setting things up how YOU want them to go and seeing if they follow the path you want them to take. If they DONT take that path, then they fail. Submissives scream bloody murder when they are subjected to this but justify it all over the place when they want it.

You are either secure or not, if you feel insecure, you bring it up and work on it. If you are so insecure that you can't even bring it up honestly and openly, you've got bigger problems than "testing" will solve.

IMO the best dominants are the ones who simply won't allow "testing" at all.

There is such a thing as "getting to know someone" openly and fully. Life brings its own tests. The measure of security for ME, is how a person's character is expressed during times of real-life stress, NOT during any manipulative passive aggressive show of insecurity on my part. You learn the mettle of someone when there's a crisis or a problem in life and dealing with it together, NOT by pusing buttons to get them to jump through a hoop.

(in reply to smilezz)

Post #: 21

RE: Manipulation. - 4/20/2005 4:47:44 AM

FuriousAngel

Posts: 102
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline

I've been pondering this thread since I saw it up as I find it interesting.

I've witnessed 'manipulation' within Dominants more times than I can count. In most cases, it presents itself as a subtle passive-aggressive behaviour to get answers to questions they aren't (for whatever questions) able to ask directly. I've also been aware of times the manipulation is designed to sway my feelings towards them.

Having said that, I've reached two thoughts thus far.

1. When I encounter manipulation tactics, I make a conscious choice to ignore them. For me to engage rewards the other with whatever it is they seek to gain via the tactics. I suppose it could be said that it makes perfect sense for me that Dominants who experience this from submissives feel the same and simply choose to ignore it for the similar reasons.

2. I do not view manipulation as a representation of 'level of submissiveness', or genuine desire to submit to another. I've seen the tactics flow in both directions over time. The need to communicate wants/needs or try to control the outcome/actions/behaviour of others via manipulation seems to know no gender or role, in or outside the lifestyle.

I have no doubt that I've exerted my own share of manipulation tactics in my time, but if I have I don't feel it was done in attempt to test a Dominant. It was because I didn't know how to ask for what I wanted, or feared rejection on some level. Manipulation is easy for the average intelligent person to recognize; so I wouldn't view a Dominant's ability to do so as a reflection of his Dominance.

A submissive who finds it safer to operate with the realms of manipulation could really just have problems communicating their needs and wants openly. It wouldn't make her any more or less submissive in my eyes. I view it more as an issue of the individual and communication skills. When a person addresses the tactics directly; again to me it is the individual, not an indication of the ability to Dominate me.

This is just my own thought process at the moment based on my observations and experiences. I realize this does not speak for everyone here and I'm not dismissing anyone else's reasons for the behaviour.

< Message edited by FuriousAngel -- 4/20/2005 4:49:09 AM >

(in reply to lil1v)

Post #: 22

RE: Manipulation. - 4/20/2005 4:59:23 AM

smilezz

Posts: 2156
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline

I do understand what you are saying Emerald, i guess i am just not able to type what i mean. This subject is just a little to close to home, so to speak.
Thank you for your input, i suppose i need to think how i can get what i am thinking and how i type that to come across more clear.

~smilezz~

_____________________________

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(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 23

RE: Manipulation. - 4/20/2005 6:40:45 AM

MrThorns

Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lil1v

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns
I have to admit a bit of concern at those that feel that manipulation is a form of healthy, loving "test" in which they can find their twue dominant. How would those of you who feel this way respond to being tested by your dominant without your consent?

quote:

I found this entire post insulting. If you want a slave who can be tied up for 12 hrs, or watch you have sex with someone else, or take a tattoo on her ass.. then by all means make that your criteria. But activities don't a sub/slave make. Just as wielding a whip doesn't make one a Dom.

I think you missed the point of what I was saying...or I didn't make myself clear in the post. To clarify; I detest the thought of people playing games and then expecting honesty and respect in their relationships.

My example of non consentually "testing" a submissive was designed simply to make you think about how you would feel. Many would scream "Abuse! Abuse!"...and post all sorts of horrible things about the person who did this to them...register the person on some "Predator Alert" website, etc. But a submissive testing the dominant in the relationship is perfectly ok? Has the submissive negotiated this with the submissive prior to getting involved? No? Then how is it a consentual act?

And then...once this dominant has passed the test by recognizing the manipulation and behaving in a manner that the submissive feels is appropriate..then what? If it were me, she would be out on the street looking for someone else to play her games with.

quote:

As far as I've read the initial question, this "manipulation" was in the begining. I read in other posts on various other topics that Good Dom/mes love a challenge. So I don't get your post really. As far as I can see, this girl just wants to see if the Dom can really handle her before she gets too far into it.. Is this really that bad of a thing? (or would you rather her suppress this and come out with it later once you've collared her?)

So...as the manipulation was being done in the beginning, the place where initial trust is being developed, that makes it ok? Seems to be counter productive to what so many submissives' claim they want. Here's some quotes from profiles I have read over the years:
"No games or game players"
"Honesty is a must"
"Must be able to communicate"
So...if these are some of the things that a submissive wants in the relationship, how does playing manipulative games be anything other than blatent hypocrisy?

As far as surprssing my ability to handle a girl before I collar her...

I don't give out collars like halloween candy. The are not made of tissue, velcro, or some form of virtual material that you find so many online submissives in. I take my time and get to know the people I am with before I assume ownership. Perhaps if one is comfortable with rushing into relationships and doesn't see patience as a valuable asset, then playing manipulative games to determine if someone is "The One" may be the best option. I value patience, so I will just have to be content with not playing games and developing my relationships with some adult level of honesty.

My intent here is not to insult anybody. This is something that I feel very strongly about, especially when people claim to value honesty and mutual respect in their relationships. If a submissive were scened without her consent, it's illegal. Why should it be any different when a submissive plays games non consentually with a dominant?

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to lil1v)

Post #: 24

RE: Manipulation. - 4/20/2005 6:59:59 AM

stormsfate

Posts: 849
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline

I disagree...if someone is looking for a certain type of person...one who says what they mean and means what they say, I see nothing wrong in trying to ascertain where those boundaries are. I don't see this as topping from the bottom, or manipulation, and I'm not referring to being bratty or disobedient here either.

As for not allowing testing at all...that in itself is a boundary. My nature is such that if I can take control...I will...because I don't know how not to. I am *not* a submissive, although I am submissive to my owner. In my relationship, it isn't an issue and I learned that early on. His will is stronger than mine and I don't batter myself against it.

If you are much into psychological, you will already know that structure and boundaries DO as a rule give a sense of security. I don't like to speak in generalities usually, because there are always exceptions to the rule, but many people (and children in particular) thrive in a structured environment where there are clear cut and established boundaries.

More often than not...this works both ways. I won't go into my personal experiences, but more than one submissive/slave has found herself put to her knees at the airport to see if they were sincere. I see nothing wrong with that either.

Just as a dominant who requires that their submissive request permission for every trip to the bathroom, drink of water, or morsel of food would not be for me...neither would be a dominant who did not possess a stronger will than I.

best regards,
fate

Edited to add: I've been trying to think of an example based upon my own experiences, and to be honest, its been so many years, I just can't recall anything...but I know early in the relationship I tried to define just where his boundaries were. So perhaps its not really the "testing" of boundaries as much as it is establishing what they are. I understand what Mr. Thorns is saying about the game playing...and in that sense, I agree...games and manipulating a response would be tiresome and I know few who would tolerate that. At the same time, I think part of the growth of this type of relationship often includes the establishment of where boundaries lie as well as the reactions of a submissive/slave in regard to their sincerity and willingness to serve.

If you

quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

In my world, testing is the same as manipulation- it's setting things up how YOU want them to go and seeing if they follow the path you want them to take. If they DONT take that path, then they fail. Submissives scream bloody murder when they are subjected to this but justify it all over the place when they want it.

You are either secure or not, if you feel insecure, you bring it up and work on it. If you are so insecure that you can't even bring it up honestly and openly, you've got bigger problems than "testing" will solve.

IMO the best dominants are the ones who simply won't allow "testing" at all.

There is such a thing as "getting to know someone" openly and fully. Life brings its own tests. The measure of security for ME, is how a person's character is expressed during times of real-life stress, NOT during any manipulative passive aggressive show of insecurity on my part. You learn the mettle of someone when there's a crisis or a problem in life and dealing with it together, NOT by pusing buttons to get them to jump through a hoop.

< Message edited by stormsfate -- 4/20/2005 7:11:48 AM >

_____________________________

Vision? What do you know about MY vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions and the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you! Now ask yourself, are you really ready to see that vision? [/size

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 25

RE: Manipulation. - 4/20/2005 7:16:36 AM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

I don't believe in a dominant version of "Spidey Sense", just as I don't believe that dominants are psychic. We are...believe it or not...human. The woman you are referring to may very well be as submissive and slave-like as humanly possible, but if she wants a relationship, I would recommend that she try using some honesty and communication to find what it is she wants.

This is absolutely true. As dominants we are not endowed with any special powers of perception. We try to be as perceptive and alert as we can, but that is never a perfect thing. As I said before, anyone can be manipulated. If a submissive chooses to try to manipulate me rather than being open and honest with me about her desires, her fears, her wants and her needs... then at that point she has given me reason to question how much I can trust her, she's shown me she lacks the ability to openly communicate with me. Its been said over and over like a mantra how important communication is in this lifestyle, why would I choose a submissive who can't do that openly?

quote:

Personally I totally agree with that sub. I would never accept a Dom I could manipulate. I would lose all respect for him.

I've seen this repeatedly, one of the reasons I see submissives do it is that they want the sense that a dominant can't be controlled, that the dominant can overpower them... the reason being is that this gives them a sense that such a dominant could then protect them, make them feel safe... give them a sense of security. While I understand the need for that sense of security, you should consider what I said just above. Anyone can be manipulated or deceived if you try hard enough, and that being the case are you not then creating unrealistic expectations?

quote:

Most people aren't skilled enough in practical psychology to manipulate people easily. Plenty of Doms and subs are in this group. If this girl has the ability, then it's not necessarily evil. She's looking for someone that can beat her at her own game. I don't see much wrong with that. He probably will be the right one for her. A lot of subs advertise that they are difficult to control and only a very dominant type can master them.

I think you need a reality check, you don't need to know thing one about psychology to manipulate anyone. Visit a highschool sometime and watch some cute cheerleader manipulate the football team... she knows nothing of psychology but she's quite good at it just the same. Watch one of those Nanny shows they have on now and watch children manipulate their parents... they certainly known nothing of psychology but they have those parents wrapped around their wee lil fingers. Having a knowledge of psychology enables you to understand how it works, but that knowledge is not necessary to being able to manipulate another, nor is it proof against being manipulated.

quote:

I don't think its uncommon to test boundaries to see if they are there and if they hold up initially. I don't think many would tolerate it for long, but I've seen it come up in discussion a few times and most seem to recognize it for what it is. Knowing those boundaries are there provide a sense of security for some.

I'll go one step further and say that, in my experience, its very common for submissives to test their boundaries with a dominant. Its something I think most dominants tolerate to a point because we know its part of the nature of a submissive to need to be sure where those boundaries are. That's fine, give that wall a lil push to assure yourself its solid. You are also correct that we won't tolerate it forever, or for too long.

But testing boundaries does not equate manipulation. That is, for example, say a I have a submissive and I tell her she has a 10 PM curfew. A week later she decides to test that boundary to see how serious I am about it, she deliberately breaks the curfew. I catch her at it, she may even admit it, and I correct and discipline her for it. That's testing. Manipulation would go something like this. Same scenario except this time the submissive decides to conceal things as much as possible because she wants to test not only if the boundary is real but she wants to see if I'm going to investigate her activities far enough to find out if she is really obeying. This is bad because in reality the only way I can keep up with all her activities is if I have her under surveillance... and in all honesty, what dom wants a submissive you have to keep under surveillance because you can't trust them to obey? Another form of manipulation would be the submissive contriving a scenario where she had an excuse to break the curfew, "but Master..." she whines "I had to because my friend, Lil Victim, was having yet another crisis in her life an needed me to be there for her. You wouldn't want me to just abandon my friends would you?" And the dominant is now in the position of having to choose between either enforcing his curfew, or showing compassion for her friend... and either way he can't win. If he enforces the curfew he comes off as an asshole for not being compassionate and she'll be complaining on msg boards (like this one) about what an asshole he is and get all kinds of sympathy from unsuspecting submissives and dominants who don't know the whole story and quickly judged someone they haven't even met (as I have seen happen on this very msg board). If he relents because of the special circumstance the submissive looses respect for him because she knows she was really trying to manipulate him and she succeeded. Its dishonest as hell, and its destructive to a relationship.

Testing the metal of a dominant is fine if what you are testing is their integrity, their honesty, their reliablity. Its fine if you keep those tests honest and ethical. For example, if a submissive wants to know that I really have the experience I claim, and chooses to test that by quizzing me over a period of a couple months asking me questions herself or even having me talk to an experienced mentor to see if my actual knowledge matches my claims, that's an honest test. A good dominant, in my opinion, would not have a problem with that. This is very different from tests that are manipulative, deceptive and dishonest. For example I've had submissives tell me things about themselves that weren't true because they wanted to see how I would react, they lied to me an as soon as I caught them in their lie (or they admitted it) I said goodbye... without exception. Honesty and trust are far too important in this lifestyle for those kinds of head games.

Being manipulative is something I have seen quite a few submissives try over the years as a test. Personally I think its a bad idea because it creates a situation that is more likely to end badly than have a fair outcome. For example, a submissive tests a dominant by trying to manipulate him thinking this will show her how "domly" he is. What the submissive doesn't know is that the dominant in question isn't trying to dominate her because he considers them just friends, he finds her behavior annoying but ignores it. The submissive, expecting him to "call her" on it and correct her is disappointed when he doesn't and wrongly assumes he's either not very "domly" or is a fake. In the worst cases such a submissive goes on to tell her subbie friends her opinion and slanders his reputation all because he didn't live up to a false expectation on her part. Another example would be a submissive who tests a dominant by trying to manipulate him. However in this case he responds, corrects her and moves on. The submissive, thinking she might have something here tests him again. The dominant corrects her again, decides she's a brat and wants nothing else to do with her. The enterprising submissive just screwed herself out of what might have been a great dominant because she was being manipulative instead of taking the time to get to know him openly through convesation and regular interaction.

There are no shortcuts to getting to know someone. And the best and most reliable method I know of is still taking the time to communicate openly and honestly over time. Being manipulative, in my experience, causes more trouble, more misunderstandings and more failed relationships than anything else. Its not a good or a fair way of testing a dominant. Disagree with that if you choose. But if you choose to be manipulative, don't whine to me when it blows up in your face.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to smilezz)

Post #: 26

RE: Manipulation. - 4/20/2005 8:55:46 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

In business I "test" people all the time. It's important to know who I can trust and how much I can rely on them.

In my relationship, if I felt I had to "test" beth, I'd end the relationship. I don't have any doubts about her and she has none of me. Even at the beginning, I never tested her. I knew everything about this lifestyle was new for her, first munch, first club visit, first public play party. Going wasn't a test, but before I would consider her as my slave I wanted to know if she was compatible and liked doing what I enjoyed. After each time we would discuss how she felt, but there was no "pass/fail" evaluation. Afterwards we just knew each other better then before. Knew what each of us expected. she developed her trust in me and I in her.

beth read this and pointed out one test I gave her. The test was if she would show up to our first scheduled meeting. she's right. I guess that was a test. btw - she passed.

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 27

RE: Manipulation. - 4/20/2005 3:36:34 PM

lil1v

Posts: 125
Joined: 4/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

[As I said before, anyone can be manipulated. If a submissive chooses to try to manipulate me rather than being open and honest with me about her desires, her fears, her wants and her needs... then at that point she has given me reason to question how much I can trust her, she's shown me she lacks the ability to openly communicate with me. Its been said over and over like a mantra how important communication is in this lifestyle, why would I choose a submissive who can't do that openly?

You shouldn't. Communication and trust and honesty are paramount. Sometimes though people unknowingly use manipulation. There are things I now know I do that are manipulative that others have said.. "Whoah what the hell are you pulling?" I am sure there are many more that remain unseen to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
I've seen this repeatedly, one of the reasons I see submissives do it is that they want the sense that a dominant can't be controlled, that the dominant can overpower them... the reason being is that this gives them a sense that such a dominant could then protect them, make them feel safe... give them a sense of security. While I understand the need for that sense of security, you should consider what I said just above. Anyone can be manipulated or deceived if you try hard enough, and that being the case are you not then creating unrealistic expectations?

You might be right here about "the sense that the dominant can't be controlled".. And true, anyone can be manipulated or deceived if you try hard enough. Frankly, both Doms and subs do this. I've had the "Are you submissive enough?" battles with "Doms".. as you talk about having the "Are you Dom enough?" head games with subs. I don't like head games anymore than you do.

But I am realistic. I know me. I am a brat. Its not a game I intentionally play, or a roleplay.. its just part of me... like a mood that passes through me from time to time. Most times I feel it coming on, and sometimes I can figure out its "trigger" and relay it. Sometimes I can't. Knowing this, I tend to avoid those that display a dislike for this type of personality.

quote:

Padriag

But testing boundaries does not equate manipulation. That is, for example, say a I have a submissive and I tell her she has a 10 PM curfew. A week later she decides to test that boundary to see how serious I am about it, she deliberately breaks the curfew. I catch her at it, she may even admit it, and I correct and discipline her for it. That's testing. Manipulation would go something like this. Same scenario except this time the submissive decides to conceal things as much as possible because she wants to test not only if the boundary is real but she wants to see if I'm going to investigate her activities far enough to find out if she is really obeying.

Hmmm.. There are many reasons why a sub would do that. Mostly for attention. Most good subs realize this behavior eats at trust, and wouldn't pull crap without a good reason. Did you ask yourself why your sub felt the need to do this? Being ignored or neglected is an awful feeling. Sometimes communicating these feelings to a Dom is a two edged sword. You're either considered an attention whore, or you're too demanding.. or you're giving them guilt trips. Or (god forbid) you're not really a sub, but a player.

quote:

Padriag
Another form of manipulation would be the submissive contriving a scenario where she had an excuse to break the curfew, "but Master..." she whines "I had to because my friend, Lil Victim, was having yet another crisis in her life an needed me to be there for her. You wouldn't want me to just abandon my friends would you?"

Sadly I've been in that position, and for me it wasn't contriving, it was the truth. Why would you keep a sub who made up stories/lies? This goes back to rules YOU set up for her. In my situation, I was given a curfew but no rules on how to deal with crisis situations. My best friend's ex-bf died and she needed someone to talk to, I felt it a justified reason to stay up. He thought she could call back during normal hours. I was then after not allowed to answer my phone after curfew, even though my friends might need me. It went against my grain, but I obeyed.

quote:

Padriag
And the dominant is now in the position of having to choose between either enforcing his curfew, or showing compassion for her friend... and either way he can't win. If he enforces the curfew he comes off as an asshole for not being compassionate and she'll be complaining on msg boards (like this one) about what an asshole he is and get all kinds of sympathy from unsuspecting submissives and dominants who don't know the whole story and quickly judged someone they haven't even met (as I have seen happen on this very msg board). If he relents because of the special circumstance the submissive looses respect for him because she knows she was really trying to manipulate him and she succeeded. Its dishonest as hell, and its destructive to a relationship.

Wow.. where do you meet these people? *writes down to thank God she's not a Dom* Trust goes both ways. Lies are never acceptable by either party in my mind. And bad mouthing someone because they made a decision you didn't like? And in my case, had my Dom let me off because of it.. I would not have lost respect for him. If anything I did lose a bit of respect for his compassionate side because he showed little to none to my best friend who was going through a really rough time. But it was his decision, it was my decision to obey or leave.

quote:

Padriag
Testing the metal of a dominant is fine if what you are testing is their integrity, their honesty, their reliablity. Its fine if you keep those tests honest and ethical. For example, if a submissive wants to know that I really have the experience I claim, and chooses to test that by quizzing me...

Honest and ethical.. exactly. I hate being quizzed though. Course most of the "quizzes" i get tend to be on the manipulative/deceptive side.. trick questions where no matter what I answer I'm fucked. LOATHE those.

I don't even want to touch your complaint on lying.. I don't accept lying. PERIOD.

quote:

Padriag

Being manipulative is something I have seen quite a few submissives try over the years as a test. Personally I think its a bad idea because it creates a situation that is more likely to end badly than have a fair outcome. For example, a submissive tests a dominant by trying to manipulate him thinking this will show her how "domly" he is. What the submissive doesn't know is that the dominant in question isn't trying to dominate her because he considers them just friends, he finds her behavior annoying but ignores it. The submissive, expecting him to "call her" on it and correct her is disappointed when he doesn't and wrongly assumes he's either not very "domly" or is a fake. In the worst cases such a submissive goes on to tell her subbie friends her opinion and slanders his reputation all because he didn't live up to a false expectation on her part. Another example would be a submissive who tests a dominant by trying to manipulate him. However in this case he responds, corrects her and moves on. The submissive, thinking she might have something here tests him again. The dominant corrects her again, decides she's a brat and wants nothing else to do with her. The enterprising submissive just screwed herself out of what might have been a great dominant because she was being manipulative instead of taking the time to get to know him openly through convesation and regular interaction.

I'm not sure if you're more upset about the manipulation or about the subs blabbing it all over tarnation. In my mind there are good guys and bad guys. Good guys - They're honest and trustworthy.. and I don't think they'd ever kill someone. Bad guys - They're a bit shady. I don't trust them with a 10 foot pole. I'm not sure if they have people buried in their backyard or not. I still don't know where you're meeting these subs, and I don't want to. Sheesh. We're adults can't we leave the petty gossip to the teenagers?

And yes.. subs that use manipulation should know that they're going to chance being dismissed for attempting it. Some believe it an acceptable risk. And I agree, if you get what you ask for.. don't whine about it.

Getting to know people takes time.. Take your time. And don't get all bent out of shape if they're not what you wanted. Move on and find someone who fits what you need.

_____________________________

V

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 28

RE: Manipulation. - 4/20/2005 4:01:30 PM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lil1v

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Some here know I went through a "submissive" phase a few years back. I play a perfect little sub when I want to. But I wasn't submitting to anyone. I was little miss top from the bottom and I *always* got what I wanted. The few who called my bluff sent me packing and they are the few who are my friends today. I did find one that I didn't want to buck against, that is my mentor and friend Rapier.

- LA

I know you're a Domme, and actually what you said here made me really question .. am I sub or Domme? Well I know I'm not Domme.

But I do like what you've said here about being "Little Miss top from bottom".. and Then those that won your respect by calling your bluff. And then the one you "didn't want to buck against"..

I think thats maybe the key here... Finding that one that fits you. For a sub, the one you don't want to buck against.

I do think it's about finding the one you won't buck against. Just because you get off on being submissive doesn't mean you have to submit to everyone that identifies as dominant. This isn't the army where you have to differ to every superior when you are a cadet. So you can have the desire to submit to a very few people and that doesn't take away from your desire to submit one bit. In fact, I think it makes you more attractive, from my perspective anyways.

I think of one of my boys, a very brilliant, strong man. He went on about 10 dates with Dommes he met online and even though he was really, really wanting to have a BDSM experience, he turned them all down because he didn't feel he could submit to them. We met and we were a fit. I had the qualities in a Domme that he was seeking. He wouldn't settle for anything less.

As for my situation, it's kind of a particular one. I have some switchiness to me when it comes to S&M but I know full well I cannot be someone's submissive. I just can't do it. I have way too strong a Domme personality. Even when I'm bottoming in S&M I'm usually co-directing with my Top, in a playful, seductive way of course. In my situation with Rapier, he didn't play the D/s up as much as the mentoring, the kinky sex and the S&M. I think that's why it worked as well as it did.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to lil1v)

Post #: 29

RE: Manipulation. - 4/20/2005 6:45:58 PM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lil1v

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

I've seen this repeatedly, one of the reasons I see submissives do it is that they want the sense that a dominant can't be controlled, that the dominant can overpower them... the reason being is that this gives them a sense that such a dominant could then protect them, make them feel safe... give them a sense of security. While I understand the need for that sense of security, you should consider what I said just above. Anyone can be manipulated or deceived if you try hard enough, and that being the case are you not then creating unrealistic expectations?

You might be right here about "the sense that the dominant can't be controlled".. And true, anyone can be manipulated or deceived if you try hard enough. Frankly, both Doms and subs do this. I've had the "Are you submissive enough?" battles with "Doms".. as you talk about having the "Are you Dom enough?" head games with subs. I don't like head games anymore than you do.

But I am realistic. I know me. I am a brat. Its not a game I intentionally play, or a roleplay.. its just part of me... like a mood that passes through me from time to time. Most times I feel it coming on, and sometimes I can figure out its "trigger" and relay it. Sometimes I can't. Knowing this, I tend to avoid those that display a dislike for this type of personality.

To some degree I believe all submissives want to know the dom can't be controlled by them, that he is absolutely in charge. That isn't a problem and in fact you can make a strong argument its necessary for that condition to exist. The problem is in how some submissives go about getting that feeling for themselves.

The second half of your statement I've debated about how to respond too. I'm going to try to be careful here not to embarass you, but I realize this can be a touchy subject. Please keep in mind that nothing I'm about to say is intended to embarass or belittle you in any way. However, I felt the topic is important enough that it needed to be addressed and this is a good opportunity for others to learn from.

My experience has been that submissives who describe themselves as brats and are prone to manipulations do so because their childhood environment fostered this behavior. I find that almost without exception that environment was one where they were frequently unable to obtain things they wanted through direct means, and so learned to use subterfuge and manipulation to get what they wanted which eventually created the pattern of behavior. The reasons for this vary, sometimes its an older child who was displaced by younger siblings and resorted to manipulative behavior to again get the attention they previously were accustomed too. Sometimes its the middle child who felt lost in between the eldest and the youngest. Sometimes its the youngest who discovered that by acting childish, playing out the role of the baby of the family, they could get what they wanted. In some cases there is a domineering father or mother who simultaneously engendered both submissive behavior and manipulative behavior as a response to the overly controlling parent. Whatever the case, the manipulative and bratty behavior was a response to an environment where the submissive did not feel they could successfully get what they wanted by direct means, such as by simply asking for it. I often find that these same submissives are often, at their core, very insecure and sometimes have low self esteem. This is an extension of that same childhood environment, which caused them to feel they could not compete against others, could not be successful, etc and again reinforced the need to achieve their goals through indirect and often manipulative methods.

However, behavior can be changed if the submissive is willing. Manipulative behavior can be curtailed through some very simple and direct methods of retraining how you get what you want. The simplest example is a dominant refusing to give the manipulative submissive what they want until they learn to directly ask for it. Want to be spanked? Fine, ask for it; but no amount of acting out or deliberately misbehaving will result in a spanking... you may spend an aweful lot of time sitting in a corner with your nose to the wall, but you will not be spanked until you both learn to behave and to directly ask for what you want in an appropriate way. What is an appropriate way of asking for a spanking, ask your dominant. It might be exactly that, "Sir I would very much like to have may ass spanked." Or it might be more playful, such as bending over your dominants lap and wiggling your ass invitingly. Such details are best left to individual dominant since they are not universal. The point is, manipulative behavior can be changed and retrained if the submissive is willing.

Sadly, some are not willing and in at least one case I personally dealt with it was because the girl was too insecure to cope with even the possibility of change.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to lil1v)

Post #: 30

RE: Manipulation. - 4/20/2005 6:54:39 PM

BlkTallFullfig

Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2
In my world, testing is the same as manipulation-

You are either secure or not, if you feel insecure, you bring it up and work on it. If you are so insecure that you can't even bring it up honestly and openly, you've got bigger problems than "testing" will solve.

IMO the best dominants are the ones who simply won't allow "testing" at all.

There is such a thing as "getting to know someone" openly and fully. Life brings its own tests. The measure of security for ME, is how a person's character is expressed during times of real-life stress, NOT during any manipulative passive aggressive show of insecurity on my part. You learn the mettle of someone when there's a crisis or a problem in life and dealing with it together

Exactly what I wanted to say since I saw the beginning of this thread but Emerald said it so much better. Thanks, M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 31

RE: Manipulation. - 4/20/2005 7:27:48 PM

MrThorns

Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
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Padriag,

Thank you for putting (so eloquently) the words I hadn't been able to find.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 32

RE: Manipulation. - 4/20/2005 7:29:19 PM

lil1v

Posts: 125
Joined: 4/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

My experience has been that submissives who describe themselves as brats and are prone to manipulations do so because their childhood environment fostered this behavior.

Btw.. Don't worry about offending me. I'm not offended.

Many of the behaviors we have today we develope as children, thats when most of our coping strategies come into being.

I was the youngest of 4 children in a family with an extremely controlling mother. So you could be right that my "brattiness" is due to growing up in that household.

And I'm sure you're right that the "brattiness" could be unlearned. It would take effort on the part of the sub as well as Dom. A good friend of mine, also a Dom, once told me that for me to be his, I'd have to agree to be broken and rebuilt. I can only guess this might have been why (he didn't want to go into details).

Asking for what I want directly.. well that is a slow process. I know why I don't always ask. Letting people know what I like has usually had disastrous consequences in my past and am coming to terms with it and trying to be proactive when I see myself doing it. I'm still learning and adjusting to accepting things I've tried to hide or deny about myself for years. I'm not up to tackling everything at once.

As for your sub that didn't want to change, I'm not sure how much she really understood herself. Or maybe she just started liking herself for who she is, and the fact that you wanted to change her just rubbed her wrong.

_____________________________

V

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 33

RE: Manipulation. - 4/20/2005 11:38:06 PM

darlingjade

Posts: 54
Joined: 1/31/2005
Status: offline

I've been reading this thread off and on all day in hopes of gathering my thoughts enough to be able to put them into some conherent order. I'm not sure how well I've succeeded, however, I'm ready to give it a shot.

First, how does one define manipulation? And are ALL forms of maninipulation taboo as a submissive?

Personally, I enjoy creating pleasant surprises for the Dom I'm in service to. Maybe I'll stop by a lingerie/leather/hardware store and buy something I know he'd like then surprise him with it the next time I see him. Am I manipulating him by doing this? Sure I am. What if I take it further and call/e-mail him and tease him by saying that I have a surprise for him for the following day that I know he'll love?

Suppose I have bad news I need to share with a Dom that I know will distress/irritate/anger him. Instead of hitting him with it as soon as he walks through the door after a long, tiring day I choose to wait until he's had his down time and is in a more relaxed mood to tell him whatever it is that I need to tell him. Am I being manipulative? Yep.

As for asking for anything you want from a Dom, I totally agree with that in theory. However, as with so much else , asking can be a double edged sword not because you may not get what you want or need but because there's all those interesting lables for those of us that DO ask for things such as the "do me sub", the needy sub, the nagging sub and the topping from the bottom sub. Honestly, it can be a very fine line to walk(or crawl) especially given the fact that each and every Dom defines the above differently from other Doms.

For example, Mr. Dom tells me that we're going to be doing (a) soon. I say errr ok, I don't know much about (a) but if that's what you want then I'll do my best. Me being me, I mull it over for a few days to see how I feel about (a) then I'm hot into researching every possible aspect of (a) available to me. I'm polling subbie friends that I suspect know about (a), talking to Doms to get that perspective and going to every link online that I have time for. A week later I ask about it and am told it'll happen soon. Same thing happens the next week with the same results. Six months later (a) still hasn't occured and I'm getting frustrated because I've gotten myself geared up and nothing has happened and, in fact, (a) has never even been mentioned again.

Here's where the choice comes in. Do I ask Mr. Dom "hey, what the heck ever happened to (a)"? Do I decide to forget about the whole thing even though by now it's become entrenched in my mind because I psyched myself up for it and I know that he's interested or he wouldn't have mentioned it in the first place? Or do I take the more subtle approach and send him some of the links I've found in my research and ask him detailed questions about what I've found out about (a), thereby making him aware of my interest? I'd do the last because I've already asked several times in a straight forward manner and because I'd wonder if my initial lukewarm response might not be the reason (a) hasn't occured.

It's late and I'm tired but it just occured to me to wonder if a subtle approach to asking for what you want(much like someone's idea of asking for a spanking by draping yourself over the knees of a Dom then wiggling your behind instead of asking with words) might be misconstrued as being manipulative? Hmm..Something to ponder tomorrow.

(in reply to lil1v)

Post #: 34

RE: Manipulation. - 4/21/2005 7:02:41 AM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darlingjade
Personally, I enjoy creating pleasant surprises for the Dom I'm in service to. Maybe I'll stop by a lingerie/leather/hardware store and buy something I know he'd like then surprise him with it the next time I see him. Am I manipulating him by doing this? Sure I am. What if I take it further and call/e-mail him and tease him by saying that I have a surprise for him for the following day that I know he'll love?

How is this manipulative? To me this sounds like taking some initiative and creating a very pleasant surprise I think most dominants would enjoy. I know I certainly would and would be pleased with a girl who did such a thing for me. You are doing something nice for him, to please him, that's a good thing. Nothing in your post gave me any reason to believe you were being manipulative at all, but you are showing initiative, which I consider to be a good thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: darlingjade
Suppose I have bad news I need to share with a Dom that I know will distress/irritate/anger him. Instead of hitting him with it as soon as he walks through the door after a long, tiring day I choose to wait until he's had his down time and is in a more relaxed mood to tell him whatever it is that I need to tell him. Am I being manipulative? Yep.

Nope, you aren't. You're are being considerate of him however, again a good thing. You've taken into account his well being, considered what would be best for him and acted on that in a way you thought would be most helpful to him. Again, this is a good thing and it sounds to me like you are being a very good girl. The only caution I will throw out is one from personal experience. Six years ago I had a girl who was an absolute doll, she was very sweet and kind. There was one particular week however when I just wasn't feeling 100%. A letter came in the mail for me from someone she knew was trouble. Not wanting me upset when I wasn't at my best she decided to hide the letter until I felt a lil better. Unfortunately, several days passed and she forgot about the letter. It was a month before she finally remembered and gave it to me. I was not amused. As it turned out the letter was in fact annoying, but trivial... and I was a good deal more annoyed she hid my mail. We sorted it all out and I made her swear never to do anything like that again and soon after all was right with the world again. Moral of the story, don't hide his mail.

quote:

ORIGINAL: darlingjade
As for asking for anything you want from a Dom, I totally agree with that in theory. However, as with so much else , asking can be a double edged sword not because you may not get what you want or need but because there's all those interesting lables for those of us that DO ask for things such as the "do me sub", the needy sub, the nagging sub and the topping from the bottom sub. Honestly, it can be a very fine line to walk(or crawl) especially given the fact that each and every Dom defines the above differently from other Doms.

For example, Mr. Dom tells me that we're going to be doing (a) soon. I say errr ok, I don't know much about (a) but if that's what you want then I'll do my best. Me being me, I mull it over for a few days to see how I feel about (a) then I'm hot into researching every possible aspect of (a) available to me. I'm polling subbie friends that I suspect know about (a), talking to Doms to get that perspective and going to every link online that I have time for. A week later I ask about it and am told it'll happen soon. Same thing happens the next week with the same results. Six months later (a) still hasn't occured and I'm getting frustrated because I've gotten myself geared up and nothing has happened and, in fact, (a) has never even been mentioned again.

Here's where the choice comes in. Do I ask Mr. Dom "hey, what the heck ever happened to (a)"? Do I decide to forget about the whole thing even though by now it's become entrenched in my mind because I psyched myself up for it and I know that he's interested or he wouldn't have mentioned it in the first place? Or do I take the more subtle approach and send him some of the links I've found in my research and ask him detailed questions about what I've found out about (a), thereby making him aware of my interest? I'd do the last because I've already asked several times in a straight forward manner and because I'd wonder if my initial lukewarm response might not be the reason (a) hasn't occured.

It's late and I'm tired but it just occured to me to wonder if a subtle approach to asking for what you want(much like someone's idea of asking for a spanking by draping yourself over the knees of a Dom then wiggling your behind instead of asking with words) might be misconstrued as being manipulative? Hmm..Something to ponder tomorrow.

I don't see how honestly communicating your needs and desires would earn you a label of being nagging or anything else. That sounds like some unfair remarks made by others. It would only become nagging if you kept asking for the same thing over an over even after having been told no. It is not topping from the bottom to express what you want or need, you have a responsibility to inform your dominant about those things. Doesn't mean he will give in an do what you want, but he does need to be aware. If he resents being aware, then the problem is with him.

I found your example a little troubling. I think you get a little over excited, but thats natural an not really a problem. Actually what I found to be the problem was the dominant you describe doesn't follow through on things and isn't communicating effectively. It does sound like you need to discuss with him why (a) hasn't happened and also to explain how its affecting you when he doesn't follow through on things. It may be that he lost interest, which is fine, but he needs to make you aware of that. As is so often said, it all hinges on the communication which has to flow both ways.

I'm being a little facetious in what I'm about to say next, but its not entirely a bad idea. Buy a copy of "The New Topping Book" by Dossie Easton and Janet Hardy. Turn to page 43 and at the top where it says You Are Responsible For Following Through On Your Promises... highlight that entire paragraph in bright yellow... maybe add a bookmark... then give him the book. Its a good book with some very good ideas in it, I enjoyed reading my copy quite a bit. That particular passage deals with almost exactly what you describe in your example.

Expressing a desire or playfully wiggling your ass is not being manipulative. The kind of manipulation that provokes such a negative reaction in so many dominant, and which can also be so destructive to a relationship is that kind that involves deceitful behavior. The kind of manipulation where the submissive tries to use various meqns, often less than honest, to get what she wants regardless of what boundaries the dominant has set or how many times he has said no. Its selfish and self centered, its wanting what she wanst regardless of any consideration for anyone else. An that is most definitely bad because it makes the submissive a very difficult person to get along with.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to darlingjade)

Post #: 35

RE: Manipulation. - 4/21/2005 7:37:56 AM

lil1v

Posts: 125
Joined: 4/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

Expressing a desire or playfully wiggling your ass is not being manipulative. The kind of manipulation that provokes such a negative reaction in so many dominant, and which can also be so destructive to a relationship is that kind that involves deceitful behavior.

I don't agree with you on this.. and maybe thats where we differed earlier so much. Manipulation to me is any screwd handling of things (often deceptive) in order to bring about a certain outcome. Just because you like the results doesn't make it any less manipulative.

If I know I've been bad, and cook him his favorite meal to butter him up.

If I wear something I know he'll find extremely sexy in the hopes that I'll get sex.

If I make certain to bend over JUST right so he sees an "excellent view" to turn him on.

If I tell him there's no plans for his birthday, but we just have to swing by his favorite restaurant.. to find a surprise party.

Its all manipulative. You just don't mind it when it works in your favor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: darlingjade

asking can be a double edged sword not because you may not get what you want or need but because there's all those interesting lables for those of us that DO ask for things such as the "do me sub", the needy sub, the nagging sub and the topping from the bottom sub. Honestly, it can be a very fine line to walk(or crawl) especially given the fact that each and every Dom defines the above differently from other Doms.

I totally agree with this. Despite what Padriag says.. it happens. Its probably a communication problem between the sub and Dom, but it happens. And yes, every Dom is different. What constitutes manipulation with one, would be just being playful with another.

While most men won't say no if you say "I want to go have sex"... If they happen to be watching an endless day of football, and you ask you might get a "Later honey".. But if you put on something sexy, bring out the favorite paddle and lay yourself on his knee, you're about 99% assured you're going to get what you want. (the other 1% is my hubby who wouldn't notice naked models in the room if football was playing).

_____________________________

V

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 36

RE: Manipulation. - 4/21/2005 7:56:56 AM

EmeraldSlave2

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

I think the most cogent part of Padriag's statement is that the manipulation we are discussing is reliant upon the submissive working for the submissive's desires, to the point of disregarding the dominant's desires and their commitment to the dominant.

If the dominant wants you to be able to dress sexy and try and turn him on, and if you accept that sometimes he might not response how you want him to without getting pouty, I wouldn't consider that manipulation. It's out in the open, you're trying to have fun. The dom knows exactly what you're doing when you're doing it, and you're not hiding what you're doing and what you REALLY want.

But once it becomes trying to get what YOU want, trying to save YOUR ass, trying to prove YOUR standards of dominance, even to the point of disobeying, it's a problem.

Though I have to say the idea of "buttering the dom up" when I had done wrong would be the worst thing I could do since it would be considered not accepting responsibility for what I'd previously said I would be responsible for.

(in reply to lil1v)

Post #: 37

RE: Manipulation. - 4/21/2005 8:17:34 AM

lil1v

Posts: 125
Joined: 4/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

I think the most cogent part of Padriag's statement is that the manipulation we are discussing is reliant upon the submissive working for the submissive's desires, to the point of disregarding the dominant's desires and their commitment to the dominant.

True, that is what you all were discussing. Which I understand NOW. *laughs* I was encompassing a much larger and broader view of manipulation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2
Though I have to say the idea of "buttering the dom up" when I had done wrong would be the worst thing I could do since it would be considered not accepting responsibility for what I'd previously said I would be responsible for.

I don't understand this. You're already in the doghouse, why would doing something he likes or "buttering him up" be not accepting responsibility? For me, its a way of saying "I'm sorry and to prove it I went through all this extra effort." I've always been one to believe actions speak louder than words. And while I would never expect a "lighter sentence" from buttering him up, I would hope that it would help ease any hard feelings.

But maybe thats a just difference communication styles.

_____________________________

V

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 38

RE: Manipulation. - 4/21/2005 8:42:08 AM

darlingjade

Posts: 54
Joined: 1/31/2005
Status: offline

quote:

Expressing a desire or playfully wiggling your ass is not being manipulative. The kind of manipulation that provokes such a negative reaction in so many dominant, and which can also be so destructive to a relationship is that kind that involves deceitful behavior. The kind of manipulation where the submissive tries to use various meqns, often less than honest, to get what she wants regardless of what boundaries the dominant has set or how many times he has said no. Its selfish and self centered, its wanting what she wanst regardless of any consideration for anyone else. An that is most definitely bad because it makes the submissive a very difficult person to get along with.

Thank you for this. It's exactly what I was looking for. Why? Because this is one of those threads that gets people thinking hard and searching themselves and I wanted to point out that a.)not all forms of manipulation are hurtful or bad(I certainly disagree with you about the examples I gave not being manipulation) b.) at first reading I knew exactly what ya'll were talking about but I'm not sure that a newbie would and c.)sometimes in reading the boards I've found that everyone tends to speak in absolutes and forget about the gray areas we all so know and love...

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 39

RE: Manipulation. - 4/21/2005 9:01:09 AM

EmeraldSlave2

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lil1v
I don't understand this. You're already in the doghouse, why would doing something he likes or "buttering him up" be not accepting responsibility? For me, its a way of saying "I'm sorry and to prove it I went through all this extra effort." I've always been one to believe actions speak louder than words. And while I would never expect a "lighter sentence" from buttering him up, I would hope that it would help ease any hard feelings.

But maybe thats a just difference communication styles.

For us it would be because it would be perceived as equating doing something ELSE good somehow cancelling out doing something wrong.

Trying to do well and exceeding expectations is always good, but not for the intention to "butter him up."

(in reply to lil1v)

Post #: 40

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