RE: What I find hard to understand.

RE: What I find hard to understand. (Full Version)

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dcnovice -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/12/2007 4:24:44 PM)
quote: I actually stole the tagline from another user who correctly attributed it to Einstein, whose every quote I know by heart. I attribute it to Calvin for irony and comical effect. Calvin the theologian, Calvin the cartoon kid, or Calvin the designer?

hisannabelle -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/12/2007 4:25:37 PM)
greetings whipthehip, i am responding to the original post and haven't read the entire thread. as a female and a rape survivor, i cannot imagine such a scenario being at all therapeutic for me. i've forgiven my rapists, and while i definitely still have psychological issues over it and the whole thing is really painful for me, acting out, encouraging, or otherwise holding onto and indulging anger tends to only make things worse - in all areas of my life. i try not to hold onto anger or let it rule my life. i imagine for some such a scenario could be "closure" or whatever; for me it would be a pointless and perhaps further psychologically damaging exercise. i don't want to take my anger and hurt about it out on the people who did it; i want them to get help so that they won't do it again and i want me to get help so that my life doesn't revolve around the fact that i was gang-raped at fifteen. neither of those desires of mine really fit in, as i see it, with the idea of taking my anger out (especially on someone who wasn't even involved in the first place) in a roleplay. to be honest, i personally don't understand what about this kind of scenario is attractive...to anyone. i guess i can understand it, if you are really, really angry about it and are open to taking out that anger in whatever way possible, but that's just not who i am. there's nothing wrong with that, imho...everybody deals with stuff in different ways. and if that's a constructive way to deal for some people, awesome. it's not for me. annabelle.

hisannabelle -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/12/2007 4:32:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip > Fox isn't the a-holes who abused me, Tom isn't them either, they don't deserve that anger. Some masochists crave feeling this anger. By not sharing it with them you deprive them of something they need, just like you may feel the need to be lashed. There is a difference between real revenge and acting out revenge on someone who craves it. Even though I keep repeating this, others write as if I am actually advocating actual revenge. i don't have a responsibility to endanger my own psychological health in order to fulfill some masochist's fantasy of me taking revenge out on them. sorry. even if i were ever going to do something like this, i would not do it on someone who craved it and who felt i owed it to them. if i did it, it would be about the therapeutic experience - the whole thing being made about getting someone else's rocks off simply makes the entire experience degrading. i don't want that kind of negative energy in any kind of play i do, and we do rape play and other types of play that touch on the things i've experienced in the past. quote: They fear becoming their perp. They fear they might go too far. They just have anger at their perp. They are past the anger stage. They just can't bring themselves to consciously direct their anger outward at a masochist, even though they are often violent females always getting into fights with their partner and with other females. The few who who actually go through with it find it very helpful, and want to do it again and again. i'm not a violent female, He and i don't fight with each other, and i rarely fight with anyone else. i would -never- encourage a revenge scenario, but i would find it especially unhealthy to encourage if someone wanted to do it over and over again. that is just feeding their issues with the rape, not dealing with the underlying issues. i do NOT want my life, my s&m life, my sex life, my relationship, ANYTHING in my life, to revolve around my rape and getting my anger out or whatever. repeatedly acting out anger is NOT healthy; for some people, acting anger out can be healthy but if you want to do it over and over again it's likely that it's actually very unhealthy. kind of like, yelling and screaming about a family problem to get the temporary intense anger out can be healthy, but rehashing it and rehashing it just makes you feel worse. annabelle.

WhipTheHip -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/12/2007 4:34:52 PM)
This is my last post on this subject, since people here are less interested in understanding what I am actually saying than in attacking like a swarm of mindless killer bees. > Okay WhiptheHip, you have made a bunch of assumptions about those > that have been abused No I haven't. I have not made a single assmption. > but have you ever stood in those shoes? You can help others without ever having been in their shoes. I've talked to enough survivors to know how they feel. > Have you had true and total fear for your life at the hands > of another? I don't experience fear. > I am talking about having someone hold your life in their > hands not knowing if they are going to step over that line > or not? Actually, I have had this happen many times, but I don't see the relevance. > Have you ever been at the wrong end of a weapon held by > someone who claims to love you? No, but I have often been at the wrong end of a weapon held by lunatics who claim to hate me and want me dead. But I don't understand the relevance of this question. You are asking me a lot of questions whose relevance to this discussion I do not see. > Everyone has different life experiences and different > reactions to things. Right. Therefore we should throw out all medicine. Is this what you are saying? > To assume *ALL* that have been abused feel anger and > want revenge is incorrect. I *NEVER* made this assumption. When people don't like what other people say, instead of disputing their position they exaggerate and distort it. The easiest way to do this is to add the word "all" or "every" to their position. This ususally turns a reasonable statement into one that is silly and false. Why people on the internet do this over and over again is beyond me. I guess since people can't attack what others actually say they are forced to engage in intellectual dishonesty and attribute to others extreme statements and positions of their own making that were never expressed. When people mistate your position over and over again, I can only conclude they are not really interested in the truth. They are so emotionally distraught they can't think straight, and feel compelled to invent all kinds of nonsense. The one thing they can't do is actually confront the true position set forth by the person who is trying to communicate with them. It is easier to communicate with an ant than get a neo-Nazi with a 180 IQ to understand racism. When people don't want to accept something their brains will work overtime to not understand what others are really saying. > I am sure there are those who feel that way and channel those feelings > into their kink but I can tell you a large number do not. So we are in complete agreement. Haliluja. > Some of us are better than to let hate and revenge rule our lives. This is very self-righteous of you. Some survivors can't control their emotions because they were fragile and their trauma great. Finally, I did not advocate true revenge. But as long as you can confuse the issue why not do so, right? > We are stronger and more intelligent than to blame ourselves > for the shortcomings of our previous spouses/lovers/friends/S.O. > We survive and move forward. So now you are attacking survivors who are weaker and less intelligent than you, who find they have trouble surviving, and have trouble moving forward. You are a very brave, courageous person to do this. You are so much better than these other less intelligent, weaker survivors. > I would never, ever, channel anger into play. And this I suppose makes you a superior peson. I feel an ego ready to burst at the seems. > Nothing makes a traumatic event go away I've said this about a dozen times, myself. It's funny you don't address the other thing I said. Did your brain just black-out when it read the rest this sentence? I wrote several times: Nothing makes the traumatic event go away, there is no cure, but certain things can help. Why is it always black and white with you folks? If it doesn't make the trauma go away it has no value. This is your false implication. What other point would there be to making such an obvious statement? > but the past is the past. It cannot be changed or > altered but can be overcome. My point exactly! Now you are stealing my words. > Don't make such obtuse assumptions about so many people because you are terribly wrong. You are the one who has made an obtuse assumption. You are the one who is terribly wrong. But hey, this is a free country, and you can believe what you like. You want to say I advocate killing all Danes, that is your prerogative. I like Danes. I made no comment about so many people. You just concocted this in your head. Or you terribly misinterpreted something I wrote. I am finished with this thread because in post after post I have been accused of saying things I never said. The fact is people on the Internet do this all the time. I guess they do it because they can't dispute something another person said that rankles them to the core. Hence they feel compelled to distort the other person's position. They don't even bother to ask the other party what they meant. They just concoct wild statements and willy-nilly attribute them to whoever they choose. How would you like if I asked you to defend some silly offensive statement you never made?

hisannabelle -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/12/2007 4:38:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip You can help others without ever having been in their shoes. I've talked to enough survivors to know how they feel. you can help survivors but you will NEVER know how they feel, just like every survivor can't know how every other survivor feels. my experience of rape and the survivors i know, we have all dealt with it very differently and we experienced it very differently - emotionally, psychologically, and physically. i have never met a non-rape survivor who has shown me that they know what it's like to experience a rape. you don't. just like i don't know what it feels like to experience living and working in a war zone, or being robbed at gunpoint. i can try to imagine it, or what i would do in such a situation, and i can empathize with the person, but i do not know how they feel and can't even come close to making a claim like that until i've been in that situation as well - and even then, we are two different people, we may have two completely different experiences. to claim anything else is sheer arrogance and stupidity, in my humble opinion. annabelle.

WhipTheHip -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/12/2007 5:11:49 PM)
> One time, she handed me a baseball bat and told me to beat a > pillow with it so I could get in touch with my anger. I can tell you why that doesn't work. A pillow has no feelings. It feels no pain. This is not a valid form of role reversal. > Its sounds alot like what you're suggesting in your op > except you suggest I beat a person with the baseball bat. I would never advise beating another person with a baseball bat. You need to ask yourself how it is possible you could so distort my position, when I made myself perfectly clear. Do you think I ever invited anyone to beat me with a baseball bat? I've had survivors visualize doing similar things to their perp, but that there is a big difference between visualization and actual conduct. > I tried it, felt silly, and stopped then explained that I > didn't feel any anger. Bad for you therapist. I only advocate what I do to survivors who still have a lot of anger. I ask them point blank if they have a lot of anger toward their perp. If they say no, I move on. Anger is a stage. Many get past it. Some can't. Some people are more prone to anger than others. Like killer bees and rabid participants here on collarme.com. It doesn't take much to set them off. On the other had domestic bees are compartively tame and docile. They won't attack unless they are really attacked. They don't read into words things that were never said so they can attack without just cause. Beating a pillow is silly under any circumstances. Whiping males when you are filled with anger and you hate all males makes a lot of sesnse, especially if those males consent and need for their own reason to feel the brunt of your anger. Once again, survivors who are not angry don't need this. That is why this is the very first question I ask survivors: "Do you still harbor a lot of anger toward your perp? If you could do anything would you still want to hurt them? Do you have a distrust and aversion toward all males due to the way this particular male treated you?" "Yes, I wish I could cut his privates off and stuff them down his throat. I wish I could pour acid on him and watch him dissolve. I wish I could whip him with fishing hooks on the end of each cat of nine tails. I wish I could stick an ice pick in him again and again. I'd like to shove a broomstick up his ass and out his mouth. I'd like to set him on fire. I wish I could shoot him, but what good does it do me, the law won't let me do anything to him. No one believed me. Yes, I try to repress my anger but it often bubbles to the surface. I often get angry at my boyfriend, and my children for no reason. I often get in fights with other females. I often push my boyfriend away because I am in a bad mood caused by flashbacks." When I get answers like this, I feel there is some benefit to cathartic psychodrama. Over a period of ten years and having tried this with several dozen participants there has not been one complaint. The lines I love the best in this thread are ones by submisives who say it is wrong for one person to hurt another even with consent and even if the receiving adult finds the action pleasurable. The subs don't even see the irony in their own criticism.

Shanadair -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/12/2007 5:12:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip This is my last post on this subject, since people here are less interested in understanding what I am actually saying than in attacking like a swarm of mindless killer bees. +++I deleted the rest of his BS for spatial factors. Read above++++++ I love how when blocked in a corner by a number of people you blatantly tear apart intelligent posts from them and then run away before anyone can respond. You obviously think your right, regardless what anyone says. You know better than anyone how those abused feel or what will "help" them. Enjoy living in your delusion. Eventually you will "help" someone right into a psych ward or worse. I'm just glad you post publically so everyone on collar me can be aware of you and those like you and clear a wide berth. Knowledge is power!!

WhipTheHip -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/12/2007 5:14:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hisannabelle quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip You can help others without ever having been in their shoes. I've talked to enough survivors to know how they feel. you can help survivors but you will NEVER know how they feel, just like every survivor can't know how every other survivor feels. my experience of rape and the survivors i know, we have all dealt with it very differently and we experienced it very differently - emotionally, psychologically, and physically. i have never met a non-rape survivor who has shown me that they know what it's like to experience a rape. you don't. just like i don't know what it feels like to experience living and working in a war zone, or being robbed at gunpoint. i can try to imagine it, or what i would do in such a situation, and i can empathize with the person, but i do not know how they feel and can't even come close to making a claim like that until i've been in that situation as well - and even then, we are two different people, we may have two completely different experiences. to claim anything else is sheer arrogance and stupidity, in my humble opinion. annabelle. I agree with everything you wrote. And I have written what you wrote almost word for word myself many times. When I said I have spoken to enough survivors to know how they feel, I meant in a very general objective sense, not in a subjective sense.

KnightofMists -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/12/2007 5:22:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip No, but I have often been at the wrong end of a weapon held by lunatics who claim to hate me and want me dead. But I don't understand the relevance of this question. Convenience Store Clerks seem to have this problem alot.... Well ... that's if you take the Simpsons to be an accurate protryal of the life of Convenience Store Clerk.... You know it just hit me... you look like Homer with hair.

WhipTheHip -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/12/2007 5:28:29 PM)
> You know better than anyone how those abused feel After spending countless hours talking to them I should. They tell me what they feel. And I take them at their word. They have no reason to lie. > or what will "help" them. I see with my own eyes. They thank me. > Enjoy living in your delusion. I will. Thank you. > Eventually you will "help" someone right into a psych ward or worse. Eventually, you will explode and murder your children. You have no more basis for making your statement, than I have for making mine. Your statement is an unsupported assertion to be taken on faith. You offer no support for it whaterver. It is a hit below the belt. You can't logically attack what I actually said. Then you hysterically attribute to me statements I never made. Now, you are are a psychic and prognosticate the future since past events support my claim, not yours. It is pretty hard for me to dispute your prophecy. Unlike you, I don't have a time machine. I believe use of past data is the best way to predict the future. That is the scientific method. But you are a prophet. Next you will be telling us you are God, and therefore know I'm going to hurt someone. You are the threat. You are the danger. Your irrationality and hysteria are responsible for all kinds of evils. I know you would not bet money on your claim. You don't even believe it yourself. You are just rabid and are trying to find anyway to attack me you can.

ownedkitten -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/12/2007 5:31:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: puella Not everyone works on that level. It is not inherent to my nature to fantasize about, want to seek out or take pleasure from revenge. Perhaps I am too practical but, to me the time is much better spent healing myself as best I can and doing what it is that is natural to me... giving. Well said! It took me a few years to make my peace with what happened to me, and I have no desire to cut open those wounds again. I have been much better served moving forward and doing things that bring me happiness.

hisannabelle -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/12/2007 5:32:04 PM)
whipthehip, what i find hard to understand is why, if you supposedly know a bevy of people who have chosen to do this and benefited from it, why you are posting this thread to talk about being confused about why people don't do it and don't reap such wonderful benefits. you're the one with all this experience you keep talking about, and you keep devaluing the words of actual survivors of rape and abuse who have posted on this thread, so clearly you know better than the rest of us. why post in the first place? this reeks of simply wanting to toot your own horn, in my opinion. annabelle.

WhipTheHip -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/12/2007 5:34:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip No, but I have often been at the wrong end of a weapon held by lunatics who claim to hate me and want me dead. But I don't understand the relevance of this question. Convenience Store Clerks seem to have this problem alot.... Well ... that's if you take the Simpsons to be an accurate protryal of the life of Convenience Store Clerk.... You know it just hit me... you look like Homer with hair. Convenience store clerk is the most dangerous profession of common professions. Crab fishing off Alaska is the most dangerous. Homer is a nuclear plant operator. When people can't attack your position, they attack you personally, your appearnace, whatever they can. You are like a bunch of school children. This is the kind of behavior observed in school yards. What are you going to say to me next? My daddy is bigger than your daddy? Have fun folks. Call me names. Say what you like. In the spirit of things here: Sticks and stones will break . . . oh never mind.

hisannabelle -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/12/2007 5:36:07 PM)
well, we've tried attacking your position. it's boring, because you refuse to accept that anyone other than you could ever possibly be right, even when the majority of posterso n this thread, a number of whom are survivors, voice differing opinions. we start attacking your appearance when attacking your position bores us to death. be happy...you made it 5-6 pages before that happened. most people don't make it that far.

WhipTheHip -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/12/2007 5:37:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedkitten quote: ORIGINAL: puella Not everyone works on that level. It is not inherent to my nature to fantasize about, want to seek out or take pleasure from revenge. Perhaps I am too practical but, to me the time is much better spent healing myself as best I can and doing what it is that is natural to me... giving. Well said! It took me a few years to make my peace with what happened to me, and I have no desire to cut open those wounds again. I have been much better served moving forward and doing things that bring me happiness. Good for you. A lot of survivors feel like you, and my suggestion is not for them. If the shoe doesn't fit don't try it on!

WhipTheHip -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/12/2007 5:52:43 PM)
> what i find hard to understand is why, if you supposedly know a bevy of people > who have chosen to do this and benefited from it, why you are posting this thread > to talk about being confused about why people don't do it and don't reap such > wonderful benefits. Good question. Since this suggestion seemed to be so successful with people who tried it, once they got over their irrational objections, I thought I might answer some of the common objections which make no sense. Some objections make a lot of sense. If you have no more anger, there is no point in reliving a traumatic event from your past. If you still have to repress a lot of anger, then this is something you might want to consider since you have access to a lot of masochists here willing to help you out. Many of these masochists will only be too happy to work with you. You shouldn't feel you are victimizing them any more than you feel like your top or Dom victimizes you. In any event, many male masochists are much more willing to take being topped out of anger than female subs. If your experience differs from mine, great. We can agree to disagree. There is no need to personally attack me. But if it makes you feel better go right ahead. Maybe you are closer to your perps than you realize. I have noticed this among survivors. they tend to be very aggresive even to the point where they attack each other. Go to any board with adult suvivors and it is one big brawl and slug fest. Suvivors of sexual abuse tend to be more emotionally abusive than others. It is just too bad for male masochists that they can't channel a little bit of this hostility into topping. No, that would be immoral. In the mean time they have no problem verbally attacking others. I have not personally atttacked anyone here. But just look at all the personal attacks directed at me. Not at my position, but at me personally. Now only if you took all this pent-up anger and hositlity and channeled it some place where it would do yourself and others some good. By the way, sorry I don't spend a lot of time proof-reading my posts. Good spelling and grammar are not signs of high intelligence. Even a brainless computer can correct spelling. This is mostly a matter of memory or careless typing. My grammar errors arise mostly because I change parts of sentences midstream, then fail to go back and correct subject and verb aggrement. Or midsentence I will decide to change what I am saying, you are left with parts of two sentences in one sentence. Most intelligent readers can figure out what I am saying. I do not write these posts for posterity.

unsung -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/12/2007 5:55:28 PM)
ya know when I am down and out entering a depressive state I often find myself invisioning myself cuffed to a fence and being whipped til my body is exhausted and my energy level near non-existent, and the welts from the whip tearing into my flesh making the pain unbearable, yet I am too weak to cry out or express any level of mental state. I have been abused in my past, I was abused because I am not an abuser. Had I fought back for the luv of hell the phk'er that took his pleasure in doing such would have been some sorry ass he ever did violated me the way he did. Now whip you want me as a victim of your theapy, omg with my pent up anger you might change your flowery image of the assistance and dare I say short range assistance you will be granted. This might just manifest itself into a new dynamic for me, I can go out and take revenge for every ass that ever crossed me the wrong way, looked at me funny or whatever. Whip your theapy is not therapy, it is a short term method you are attempting to justify as a long term solution. Cause I tell you in 20 years from now when I have a flash back I will come back looking for you. Get the picture? Probably not but maybe I sold it to a few.

jauntyone -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/12/2007 5:57:32 PM)
quote: Many of these masochists will only be too happy to work with you Greetings would you please give reference to these masochists who you feel are more than ready to step up and be abused in such a way. I would really like to talk to them myself as I am sure they could answer some questions that I have. I wish you well melissa

gypsygrl -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/12/2007 5:58:02 PM)
quote: Over a period of ten years and having tried this with several dozen participants there has not been one complaint. You've been doing this for 10 years, presenting it as a therapeutic practice, and have helped at least 36 people, depending on your definition of 'several dozen.' At the very least, I would suggest you get connected with your local community of practitioners dealing with issues of abuse in order to share your ideas there. The larger point of my post was that even if you choose to go the lay counselor route, and not worry about things like degrees and credentials which I feel is a perfectly valid alternative to traditional psychology, there are still a variety of ways to sort out legitimate practioners. The impression I'm getting from what you've written is that you're going it alone which means you're not subjecting yourself to community standards of practice. Presenting yourself as a lay practicioner does not absolve you from seeking out the criticism and support of your peers in your area of practice. The fact that you haven't had any complaints from those who have participated in your brand of play isn't enough to protect you from the charge of being a quack.

hisannabelle -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/12/2007 5:58:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip I have noticed this among survivors. they tend to be very aggresive even to the point where they attack each other. Go to any board with adult suvivors and it is one big brawl and slug fest. yet again, i am calling bullshit. i belong to a message board that's been running for five years and has had over 500 members, about 200 of which are still fairly active. most of us are abuse survivors, almost all of us have eating disorders and deal with a host of other issues, among them anxiety, schizophrenia, chronic physical pain, borderline personality, etc. tensions do get high sometimes as they would in any group of people that large, and we've had our disagreements, but no one on that board is any more or less aggressive because of being abused. i am not an aggressive person and i do not interact aggressively on the boards; i am a survivor of rape. two of my closest friends from the boards, who i have stayed with or have had over to my house for long periods of time and have been around long enough to see their personalities, are some of the quietest, kindest people i have ever met. the idea that survivors are somehow more aggressive than anyone else, or that survivors cannot interact with each other just as peacefully as everyone else, is another bit of bs, in my mind. it only takes one exception; i would consider our community a pretty big exception to your rule. and by the way, i'm not attacking you. i'm attacking some of the things you are saying, which are blatantly untrue, grossly overgeneralizing, etc. annabelle.

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