RE: What I find hard to understand.

RE: What I find hard to understand. (Full Version)

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KnightofMists -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/13/2007 6:45:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra When people talk about stuff like this, what usually ends up showing is that they are, in effect, continuing to use the person that was abused. Juliet this is an excellent point.

BOUNTYHUNTER -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/13/2007 6:45:46 AM)
I would say its hard to validate some one that post so often and basically says the same damm shit...bounty

jauntyone -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/13/2007 6:48:35 AM)
quote: There is considerable literature that supports my claim that psychodrama is and can be an effective form of therapy Greetings I would like to see the literature please I wish you well melissa

WhipTheHip -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/13/2007 6:55:31 AM)
> for me, the role playing would be more of a changing the ending This is too is part certainly part of it. I didn't get a chance to mention thisaspect under the berrage of negative comments. By changing the ending, the survivor feels they now have the control they did not have in the past. The experience is empowering and self-affirming. For someone trained to always take it, to fight back and succeed, can be transformational. It is not just a matter of revenge, but releasing poisonous emotions. > i have found helpful int he past...and the Daddy dom I was > with at the time discovered this (I do not know if this is his > ususal MO but with me we did do some role play where i > actually defeated or won so to speak) and it was an > empowering victory.... but that is just the humble > opinion of this little one red This is exactly one of the things I like to do with subs who were sexually abused. Some get really upset at the idea, the ones who actually try it like it, and find it builds their self-esteem.

KnightofMists -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/13/2007 6:56:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jauntyone quote: There is considerable literature that supports my claim that psychodrama is and can be an effective form of therapy I would like to see the literature please Just enough truth to be accurate.. but not enough to give the appropriate picture. I believe when you look the literature... I believe you will see that to use the approach effectively takes um training... which generally leads to a useless piece of paper. One should also focus on the significant risks associate with the approach as well... hense the need for effective training.... you will likely learn that using this approach is very much dependent on the person themself. meaning that many this approach would be more harmful than helpful in alot of cases.

puella -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/13/2007 6:57:37 AM)
Good luck with that Melissa, He still has not responded to any of my questions and explanations and I am a clinician in the field... He is just trying to be outrageous for attention.

jauntyone -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/13/2007 7:10:09 AM)
Greetings puella Yes, I know that he will never be able to produce any literature to support his claims. He side-steps requests such as that with the clumsiness of a one year old. Greetings Master Knight LOL you are very correct in that to produce such literature would indeed nullify his claims that training and degrees are useless. I may very well get in trouble when Master reads this thread for being so disrespectful, yet, to see one such as he make such statements sends shivers of distaste and loathing down my back. I wish you all well melissa

WhipTheHip -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/13/2007 7:31:59 AM)
> The dungeon is not the place for therapy. Who says? The dungeon is an excellent place for therapy. It has been used successfully as a place for therapy by many survivors. Who are you to tell them they are wrong? If it works for them, who are you to tell them otherwise? Especially since you have never even tried it? How the hell would you know? > These women are very right about the > situation going too far and loosing control. None has gone too far. I encourage them to let all their emotions out. I have two "safeties" in the room that prevent things from going too far. Many "survivors" do go wild lashing the masochist, flailing away with all their might. The whip used is carefully chosen for this very activity. I am also very careful to screen who I allow to do this, and who I don't. I've become very adept at picking the right individuals. We spend many hours talking before a session. > If they are functional in their present daily > lives why would they want to go back into > that level of torment? 1. Desensitization 2. To turn the tables, and get a better outcome which happens to be a common use of psychodrama. 3. To channel repressed anger that has been eating away at them and hurting their relationships. 4. To get the revenge fantasy they always dreamed of having, that obsessively replays in their mind over and over again. 5. To hear their perp beg for mercy, and ask their forgiveness. 6. To get the answer to the question that has always been burning in their mind: "Why?" 7. To build self-esteem, strengthen their ego, to feel empowered. 8. To release the anger they have always directed at themselves. 9. To release some of the anger they feel towards all men. 10. To achieve catharsis. 11. To get over their anger. I could go on, but see no point because when people's minds are closed and made-up, when people are emotionally upset they can't think straight. > What would be gained? The eleven points above just for starters. > They may well have a complete mental and > emotional breakdown. You forgot to mention, they also could be struck by lightning. > Victims of physical and sexual abuse and rape > are best dealt with by professional psychologists > and psychiatrists. That is your opinion. I help "survivors" (not victims), who have spent half their lives unsuccessfully trying to get help from psychologists and psychiatrists. They tell me again and again, that I've helped them more in a few hours of talking with them, than all the hours they have spent talking to countless psychologists, psychiatrists and therapists. I am very good at what I do. But I can't help anyone who does not want to be helped or those who start with the belief that only licensed professionals can help them. You can't dissaude most people from any strongly held conviction, no matter how good you are.

thetammyjo -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/13/2007 7:35:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip > Your OP read like you were saying that all abused people should feel this way and should do this. I don't know how you possibly could have come to this conclusion. Nothing I wrote remotely implied this. > In short, you are attempting to tell us, survivors, what we should feel and do, Never in my life have I ever attempted to tell *ANYONE* what they should feel or do. > at least that is how your posts to this point in this thread are reading to me. I don't know what I wrote that possibly could be construed the way you say. Which of my words are you getting this from? > Why can't you just accept our reasons for us? I do. > What makes you want to change our minds? I don't want to change your mind. I can't imagine why you would think that. Here's the original post: quote: I know some females in the scene were badly mistreated by some male at some point in their life. I don't get why they seem to have little interest in acting out some kind of role playing revenge fantasy. Some say they are afraid of losing control and going too far, but there could always be a third party present to prevent that from happening. I would think that would be theraputic. Yet, survivors shy away from such a role reversal dramatization. I know if I was a female and a victim of abuse, I know I would to channel my anger onto some male. You say you don't understand why someone would not want to do this yet when people explain their reasons you start making arguments that you have done this with people and that it helped them -- you keep saying it over and over again. You further then started to suggest that if we didn't do this then we were not giving our partners (whom you assume are masochists and would make this offer) what they want. If you were looking to understand our reasons why offer these counter arguments or examples of how it has worked for some you know unless you want to change our minds? The only logically reason I can think of why you would argue it is a good thing to do is that you want to convince us that it is. I think this is what others picked up on and have been arguing with you about. Not the original idea that you wanted to understand but that you have shown you do not want to understand by trying to counter every reason people give for why they would not do as you say some women have done with you.

wandersalone -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/13/2007 7:37:13 AM)
Okay, I have now read all of the replies and have a couple of comments/questions- question- Was your intial post a disengenuous way to let everyone in the forums know that you are masochist wanting women to take their anger out on you? comment- You have mentioned that you are not providing therapy to people however your comments about helping dozens of submissive women through allowing them to channel their anger towards past perpetrators seems to suggest the opposite and suggesting that it will be helpful for them to act out their feelings on you also suggests some sort of therapeutic relationship. If you were registered as a psychologist in Australia you would have to abide by a code of ethics and my feeling from reading your posts is that you would be sailing close to the wind - I am pasting a few of the guidelines that they have to meet in Australia II Competence Members shall bring and maintain appropriate skills and learning in their areas of professional practice. (a) Members must not misrepresent their competence, qualifications, training or experience. (b) Members must refrain from offering advice or undertaking work beyond their professional competence. Members must avoid dual relationships that could impair their professional judgement or increase the risk of exploitation. Examples of such dual relationships include, but are not limited to, provision of psychological services to employees, students, supervisees, close friends or relatives. Members must not exploit their professional relationships with clients sexually or otherwise. SECTION G PUBLIC STATEMENTS AND ADVERTISING 1. Public statements include, but are not limited to, communication by means of periodical, book, circular, brochure, list, directory, business card, television, radio, facsimile, or electronic transmission such as email or the Internet. Public statements made by members in announcing or advertising the availability of psychological products, publications or services, must not contain: (i) any statement which is false, fraudulent, unfair, misleading or deceptive or likely to mislead or deceive; (ii) testimonials or endorsements that are solicited in exchange for remuneration or have the potential to exploit clients or other service recipients; (iii) any statement claiming or implying superiority for the member over any or all other members; (iv) any statement intended or likely to create false or unjustified expectations of favourable results; (v) any statement intended or likely to appeal to a client’s fears, anxieties or emotions concerning the possible results of failure to obtain the offered services; (vi) any claim unjustifiably stating or implying that the member uses exclusive or superior apparatus, methods or materials;

WhipTheHip -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/13/2007 8:00:41 AM)
> Yet, survivors shy away from such a role reversal > dramatization. For many of the mistaken, illogical beliefs presented here. > Most will because they want live in the present, > not in the painful past. When a survivor tells me this I immediately move on to another. This is a valid reason. But many survivors can't let go of the past and are stuck in the past. Those who are no longer effected by the past have no reason to use my suggestion. I never said it was for everyone. > It is because you are neither that you do not understand. > You are projecting your own point of view, a typical male > response to "fight back!" Yes, you are partly right about this. Anger can either be directed inwards or outwards. Females tend to turn all their anger inward, and this is not a good thing. Men tend to turn all their anger outward, this is also not a good thing. The femeale survivors I've talked to tell me they try to turn all their anger inward, and it has led to lifelong depression, alcohol and substance abuse, to feelings of hopelessness and self-hatred, to low self-esteem. And even so, they say they have so much anger some of it explodes outward from time to time and hits innocent victims like their own children and their partners. I've written this now about a dozen times, yet these words go ignored and unaddressed. If you go to any survivor forum you will hear all the anger, and their desire to hurt their perps in every way possible. So, no, this is not just coming from a male who was not a victim of abuse projecting his own feelings, comes from my listening to thousands of female survivors. >This also assumes a more equal level of physical > strength and fighting ability. No it doesn't. In my psychodramas the survivors always win the day, no matter how weak they are, no matter how poor their fighting ability. They always manage to get the upper hand. In my psychodramas, they always have the power of Xena and the Power Puff Girls combined. In my psychodramas, the underdog always wins, and the evil perp always is punished. That is why people watch movies like "Home Alone." How many movies involve people getting revenge. Every see the movie: The Burning Bed, First Blood, or Dirty Harry. These movies are a kind of therapy and release for people who always at the short end of the rope. > Most female victims will attempt to survive and > escape without direct physical confrontation. > Physical size and strength is not usually in their favor. It is always better to escape without direct physical confrontation, even if you are a man with superior physical size and strength.

WhipTheHip -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/13/2007 8:15:43 AM)
> You say you don't understand why someone would not want to do this My statement was rhetorical. After having spoken to thousands of survivors I know very well why many don't want to do this. Some have very valid reasons like they are no longer angry and they have moved on with their life. Most make no sense at all making arguments like they don't want to become their perp. Many submissives have convinced themselves that violence is always wrong even in self-defense, that retaliation is never right, that all anger should be internalized, that they should never admit they want to hurt their perp because this would make them evil, that whipping a consenting adult masochist is just as bad as sexually assualting a female child. Many subs have their heads sewed on backwards and have grown so used to taking every form of abuse, that the only person they see fit for punishment are themselves. They reason if I whip a masochist today, tomorrow I may shoot the president of the United States or go on a rampage and molest every child in sight. They are so terrorfied to give outward expression to their emotions for fear they will not be able to control themselves. So they just lock the door of a room in their brain that is filled with monsterous thoughts, and unacceptable desires. Rather than deal with their past, and try to learn a little self-control, they just sweep it all under the carpet and pretend it is not there and it will go away on its own.

Sinergy -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/13/2007 8:17:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip > to encourage romanticism of revenge in a victim is beyond unhealthy, it is, clinically speaking, unethical. I am talking about channeling and directing anger at masochists. I tend to think that directing anger at a masochist is an unhealthy and unsafe method of dealing with one's inner issues. I dont view my submissive as a punching bag to vent my angst and issues. I view her as somebody to share the journey to find peace and harmony in the expression of our needs. quote: Many male masochists would relish the opportunity. Many male masochists seek out females who were hurt for this very purpose, so both their needs can be met. Do you spend much time with these "many masochists?" Venting unhealthy emotions is not really what I look for in a submissive. She wants to vent she can seek professional help. quote: That is what many male masochists seek. Do you spend much time with these many male masochists? I cant recall any I have met who wanted their Top to lose emotional control and vent their anger and rage at them. quote: I don't think submissives realize that their (sic) are male masochists who crave what they would enjoy dishing out. I have met quite a few masochists in my time, and I really cannot say I have met any that sought out anger management class candidates to top them. quote: Female survivors who try this feel empowered. So you personally know female survivors who try this and feel empowered? Or is this simply your perception of reality? quote: But temporarily allowing out that angry monster they bottle up in them is not always a bad thing. That is what therapists are for. To allow an angry monster out of it's cage when the bottom is tied up, helpless, and within reach of potentially lethal weapons seems like a poor idea to me. Before you respond, I want to remind you that I work professionally as a mock assailant in full-contact self defense, and I spend a lot of time with people (some are survivors) letting the angry monster out of the cage to beat the living crap out of me. The fundamental differences are: 1) She has a coach who coaches her and keeps me safe. 2) I am well protected by virtue of training and equipment from being hurt if the angry monster causes her to lose control. No matter how angry she/he gets, no matter how hard he/she hits me, I get tired but am not in danger of being seriously injured. 3) In other words, I am not pinned and helpless and forced to endure whatever savagery this angry person brings to the table without being able to keep myself safe. Sinergy

juliaoceania -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/13/2007 8:22:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip quote: ORIGINAL: bandit25 You really need to step away from the computer. Your claims are laughable not to mention just plain ridiculous. Get a clue, dude, no one is buying. Unlike others here, I have to say this for you: You're logic is indisputable. You got me. --New ideas are always ridiculed. Then they are labled dangerous. Finally, they are so obvious, they go without saying. The herd is often wrong. You know what you have described is experimenting with human beings with no training and no license. It sounds as though you have a God complex to me. Edited to add, if you are having women that were victimized abuse you to satisfy your kink to get beaten savagely in anger this is further abuse of the person you are dealing with... sexualizing their abuse by having them take their anger out on you seems very unethical and sick to me

WhipTheHip -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/13/2007 8:47:53 AM)
Please forgive me, but I don't have time to read and respond to every post. I was going to stop posting her, but then I saw some questions asked that I thought needed to be answered. > I think you are missing the point. That is always posssible. I am human. But have you considered the possiblity that you may be missing the point? > Not all our desires come from a healthy place. I agree. As I have stated in the past many desires, including the desire top, pillage and rape come from the archipallium. > If what you want is unhealthy for you at that time, it may be > unethical to give it to you. I believe it is *HEALTHY* to channel anti-social desires of the archipallium into moral activity like bdsm. Many of my bdsm desires come from an unhealthy place. I have many immoral sexual desires. I see nothing wrong with channeling them into bdsm activities. > Fox has a bad reaction to too many diary products, it can > make him very sick. So if he wants to eat and eat and eat > ice cream he will hurt himself. Not if he takes Lactaid. I am also highly lactose intolerant. > I would be an unethical owner if I just kept giving him > and giving him ice cream in my opinion. Okay, we are in agreement here. Though, I don't see its relevance. > If he wanted to be hit because he thought that he was a > bad person and deserved it, I wouldn't hit him. Why not? > I'd be reinforcing his negative view of himself if I did. Let me play along with you here. > I want him, as his owner, to have a healthy and happy > view of himself. So how does that relate to me as a > survivor working anger on someone who asks me too? I'm glad you are asking this question. Suppose your sub legitimately had a negative view of himself and rightly felt he deserved to be whipped. What then? Suppose your sub a positive view of himself, but got pleasure from you taking out you anger on him? You are aware that many bottoms don't enjoy pain but endure it to give their tops pleasure. Is this immoral. Sometimes masochists get vicarious pleasure. By helping you they get satisfaction. Why not let a masochist be a knight in shining armor? Why not let his pain give you pleasure? That is what bdsm is all about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > sigh I wonder about repeating this because I > don't think you understanding or willing to accept > other's own ethics and limits on these issues. You sound just like people who are against bdsm because they think masochists and subs are being abused and taken advantage of. > I'll try again: By doing things in anger, especially such > displaced anger that rightly would belong on the abuser, > I run the risk of creating a negative connection to my > sadism and to my Ds relationship. Not if that is what your subs or masochists want and crave! If everyone benefits, I don't see the problem. > My sadism and my Ds relationship are far too valuable > for me to risk that. I care more about myself and my slave > to risk it. I agree. But many masochists would be delighted and pay you to take your anger out on them. Where is the harm there? > Others may feel it is worth the risk. No one feels it is worth the risk. No one has suggested you engage in risky behavior. You keep making up strawmen arguments. There are very legititmate reasons not to do what I suggest, but you have not named one. It sounds to me like you will think some masochist will take what you do to them personally and be mad at you or you will reinforce some wrong idea in some pathetic masochist who does not know which end is up. I don't think you give masochists enough credit. They know what is good for them and what is not. I am not trying to tell you what is best for you. I was just trying to start rational dialogue. You are the ultimate arbiter of what is right or wrong for you. Likewise you ought to give masochists the same respect. You shouldn't presume to know better than they do what they need. If survivors feel they don't need my suggestion and would not benefit from it, hey, who am I to tell them otherwise. But I can say when a survivor is making an irrational claim, like they will become their perp by topping a consenting masochist.

WhipTheHip -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/13/2007 8:52:33 AM)
> unless you want to change our minds? I don't want to force people to change their minds. I want to educate people then let them make their own decisions. > The only logically reason I can think of why you > would argue it is a good thing to do is that you > want to convince us that it is. I'd like to convince some survivors that it is in their best interest, but not others. Like I said, it is not for those who have gotten over their anger, and it is not for every sub who still has anger. Every person is different.

sublizzie -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/13/2007 8:55:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania You know what you have described is experimenting with human beings with no training and no license. It sounds as though you have a God complex to me. Edited to add, if you are having women that were victimized abuse you to satisfy your kink to get beaten savagely in anger this is further abuse of the person you are dealing with... sexualizing their abuse by having them take their anger out on you seems very unethical and sick to me Exactly. It's scary to think of being put in a position to "service" such a sick kink by whipping/caning someone with the anger of a victim who needs some good psychological therapy. Using drama to deal with one's anger is one thing. To actually HIT someone in anger to deal with one's victimization is to re-victimize the victim. It keeps them a victim. Blech. I'd rather be a survivor who has overcome the majority of my victimization. MUCH better to be beyond that cr*p and in a healthy place. I can't see the draw to helping him martyr himself.

thetammyjo -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/13/2007 9:29:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip > My sadism and my Ds relationship are far too valuable > for me to risk that. I care more about myself and my slave > to risk it. I agree. But many masochists would be delighted and pay you to take your anger out on them. Where is the harm there? > Others may feel it is worth the risk. No one feels it is worth the risk. No one has suggested you engage in risky behavior. You keep making up strawmen arguments. There are very legititmate reasons not to do what I suggest, but you have not named one. It sounds to me like you will think some masochist will take what you do to them personally and be mad at you or you will reinforce some wrong idea in some pathetic masochist who does not know which end is up. I don't think you give masochists enough credit. They know what is good for them and what is not. I am not trying to tell you what is best for you. I was just trying to start rational dialogue. You are the ultimate arbiter of what is right or wrong for you. Likewise you ought to give masochists the same respect. You shouldn't presume to know better than they do what they need. If survivors feel they don't need my suggestion and would not benefit from it, hey, who am I to tell them otherwise. But I can say when a survivor is making an irrational claim, like they will become their perp by topping a consenting masochist. You still don't understand my point at all. This isn't about the bottom who offers himself. It is about the person who feels the anger. I don't care if a masochist wants me to take out anger on him, it isn't all about him. I have to take care of myself first and foremost and for me it risks damaging what I enjoy by confusing it with negatives. That's my choice and my decision; it is not yours or any other masochist's choice. Offering oneself to be a target for someone to work out their angry on when you have been told they do not want to do that signals you are not interested in anything other than your own pleasure and your own interpretation of what the angry person should do. It becomes selfish in a bad way because it is attempting to run someone's life and tell them how to heal. If I'm not supposed to know better than a masochist then why do you claim to know better than me or multiple others who have said we won't do this? I haven't said nothing disrepectful about masochists at all -- you have told those of us who say will with not play out our pasts or with angry that we are being bad to those who want us to. That's a double standard that I will not accept from you or anyone else. As for my strawman arguments -- they are based on my own life. Are you going to claim that you know more about my life and my experiences than I do?

WhipTheHip -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/13/2007 10:46:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greeneyes1962 I have found that being able to actively forgive my abuser has helped me significantly in my recovery. I agree this is the secret to recovery. I tell this to every survivor. If the abuser was a relation, I tell them they can hate the part of the abuser that hurt them but love the part of the abuser that loved them and was good to them. Now some abusers are just plain evil sociopaths who drank, and robbed and took from every person whatever they could, and hurt others without caring one bit. I tell them that sometimes certain compulsions can be a sickness. Just like some people compuslively wash their hands, some people have sexual compulsions. We should know this better than most since bdsm is for many of us a sexual compulsion. Now you might say, we don't hurt anyone. But suppose the only way we could get our bdsm fix was by hurting others. That would be a pretty hard ho to row . . . I mean row to hoe. Granted most of would be able to exercise control over our desires. But the laws of nature dictate their will always be some people unable to keep their desires in check either because their compulsions are abnormally strong or their will-power and self-discipline abnormally weak. I can understand sex offenders because I know how much will-power, self-discipline, morality and empathy I have to have not to be one. If I had been brought up differetly, I could easily have been another person. > I know this is probably just feeding into the beast but reading this thread has made me > wonder if, perhaps, Whip has some demons he needs to deal with so he has people > who are angry at their abusers beat him. That way he can make it seem like he's doing > this great service for the victims when really all he's doing is penance for his evil ways. > It's just a ploy to get someone to beat on him regularly. I could be wrong, of course. > Hopefully I am. But after having read Whip's threads over the past few months it seems > like he enjoys this kind of thing. I never claimed to be doing any great service. To the contrary, I tell survivors they will be helping me. I like to let survivors think I have an evil past because that gives them more satisfaction, and my satisfaction comes from their satisfaction. It is not a ploy, it is a mutally beneficial relationship. I make no bones about that. It is a win-win situation. I do enjoy playing the role of perp, and getting my cumuppance. The truth is I really would much rather top. But when long periods pass when I am unable to fullfil my real desire, and the urge to "top" is really strong, i.e. the desire to take a female, tie her down, and have my way with her while flogging and sexually torturing her, I am forced to direct all this energy inwards at myself. So it is therapy for me, too. If I didn't direct this energy inward at myself, I could become a rapist and sex offender. You can only take so many cold showers. And self-help does not scratch the itch or replace the need to fulfill a specific craving. As it is I am a sado-masochist. I enjoy inflicting sexual pain. I enjoy tying females up, rendering them helpless and vulnerable and using them like sex toys. Most of my fantasies involve non-sensual conduct and sex. Some are fairly extreme. If I didn't fear, respect and obey the law, if I had no morals, if I didn't feel the emotional pain others feel, I would enjoy being a rapist and a sexual predator. Because I do fear, respect and obey the law, because I do have a very strict moral code, because I do feel the emotional pain others feel, I do not eat mammals or fowl, and I do not rape and plunder. Seeing females forcibly held down, tied-up, raped, flogged and sexually tortured turns me on. Yes, I feel a lot of guilt over this because of my deeply held religious convictions (even though I am an atheist I have deeply held religious convictions), and because I have so much empathy. Because I am so empathic, I get pleasure by giving pleasure, and get satisfaction by giving satisfaction. I would get zero satisfaction from a Domme topping me for money. I get a lot of satisfaction from a survivor taking out her anger on me, but only if she gets satisfaction from it, and only if she is helped by it. In fact, it is her satisfaction that gives me pleasure, and the notion that my sacrafice is helping her. If she gets nothing out of it, I get nothing out of it. If she is hurt by it, I am hurt by it. I also believe there is a little part of every person in me, that if not for the grace of God or happenstance of nature, I could be any person, even you. That is why I care for every person and love every person no matter who they are. I may hate people like Hitler and Stalin for what they did. But I also love them because I understand them. I understand the psyche of every human being from Richard Dahmer to serial killers to ax murders to the worst sexual offenders. I also feel guilt for the crimes they commit. I know if I were in their shoes with their exact genetic make-up and their exact upbringing, I would have acted exactly as they did. If instead of a compulsion for bdsm, I had some other monsterous compulsion, I can't say for sure I would not be some monster. Where society sees monsters, I see victims. When I come across a vicious pit bull be it human or animal, I have sorrow because I know this creature did not choose its nature. It most likely had a genetic predisposition for viciousness, and it most likely was unloved, and physically and emotionally abused. I believe there is a rational scientific reason why every human and animal acts the way they do. A lot has to do with the gene pool containing every random combination and permutation allowing the environment to indifferently select which genes will increase in number and which will decrease in number. I know my view is a minority view today. I know most people think they made themselves who they are, that they had free choice to be good or bad. People who are good think to themselves: "I had to struggle hard with my evil impulses, and I almost lost, but if I could succeed and choose good, anybody can succeed and choose to be good, because nobody went through what I went through." But the truth is we were all born with different resources, different coping mechanisms and different parents. Nobody can say with certainty they would not act exactly like another person, if they had that person's identical genetics, and that person's identical childhood environment. This means we could all be Hitler or Stalin or the worst child molester on Earth. That realization makes for some humility, some self-hate and some understanding. As a sexual sadist who fantasizes about non-consensual sex and torture, I don't have to try too hard to pretend I was that survivor's perp. My empathy, my ability to feel what other people feel allows me to feel what he felt, it allows me to feel the pleasure he felt. When survivors whip me they are whipping someone with an archipallium not so different from the archipallium of the perp who hurt them. It is a cathartic experience for both of us, it helps both of us. No one can really know the pain another person has gone through, but I can tell you I understand the pain survivors went through a lot better now, than I did before I started this. I never would have imagined.

daniL -> RE: What I find hard to understand. (4/13/2007 10:47:49 AM)
Actually, I would be very worried about the masochist who volunteers for this. I would be very worried because they are taking advantage of the survivor of the abuse in this situation. They use the abuse that this person suffered in order to get their end off, and that sounds like a person who should be in therapy. I love the masochists, love them a lot, but this doesn't sound healthy for anyone. Also, WhipTheHip, when you replied to me, you grouped me in [either purposely or by accident] with professionals. I am an undergraduate in college. I am far from a professional. I hope to do a counseling internship soon, but that'll be guided by a licensed professional. Within my post, I did in fact use the term victim. However, I used it in quotations because I was referencing the fact that I felt that this form of therapy can arguable be another form of abuse-- mental abuse from a non-professional who cannot help a person make healthy life choices [a part of my previous post which I never saw you respond to, by the way], and another form of mental abuse from masochists who use the top only to take advantage of their tender mind state. I would argue with your use of the word survivor-- survivors are people like the women-- and I'm sure some men-- who have commented or wanted to comment on this thread because they have moved on and survived. A victim is someone who is still being victimized, by either the physical presence of the person, or the mental scars which they have left. A survivor, coincidentally, is someone who survives. The type of person that you claim to be treating are, unfortunately, still victims. I say this not to offend anyone, especially not those victims, but they need help not seeking revenge but finding other parts of their lives to live for.

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