RE: Single Femdoms - what was lacking?

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undergroundsea -> RE: Single Femdoms - what was lacking? (4/15/2007 10:58:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha If it all comes down to compromise, still, someone must be willing to be on the short end of the stick. There's no pretty way to paint that. Compromise can still be win win by a modification to the original idea. Compromise can be an entirely different third idea that delivers what is important to each. Or compromise can occur not because one person is giving up his or her interest but because one person sees the appeal in the point the other person holds. And compromise where one person is giving up his or her interest can be where it is defined by relative importance and the bigger picture of the relationship (prior compromises, more) rather than by role only. quote: Ultimately, one person has the authority to have the final say - period. I think the applicability of this statement varies with the relationships. Cheers, Sea

AAkasha -> RE: Single Femdoms - what was lacking? (4/15/2007 11:01:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: undergroundsea You indicate that in your relationship, you include the input of the sub and use your authority responsibly. I can imagine a situation where the dominant's decision is not as responsible. I can imagine someone new to dominance where ego or intransigence drive a decision not adequately contemplated, and the role is used to justify it. And even when the sub's input has been invited and there is disagreement, I think the resolution follows similar principles as the case when no input is invited. What happens if you have invited the input of a sub but you two still disagree and he feels very strongly about the matter? Cheers, Sea I can see a very bad situation when a sub does not agree and says "You are just being stubborn and want your way because you are the femdom. Well, I want my way, because I am right." Here's another way to avoid this situation: don't partner with someone you find dangerously irresponsible. Most subs indicate they want to partner with a woman who is as intelligent as he is, if not more. When it comes to matters of money, of needs (especially sexual) in relationships, there are often disagreements. When two people can't agree, there has to be a default person to make the decision, or else there will be tension and resentment. A man has to be big enough to let it go when he wants the woman in charge, he can't just do it when it is easy and feels good. A good woman can be fair and balanced and also learn from her mistakes, and recognize poor decisions and learn from them. Two people also have different perceptions about risk/reward, for example. In the situations where my man objected to my idea of what was a necessary purchase but I vetoed him anyway, there have been times I have looked back and said, "You were right. That was unnecessary." There have been times since then that he's given an opinion and I said ok, I agree, as much as I wish I could overrule you on this, but your logic resonates with me. There have been times that I have made the same compulsive type purchase, overriding his opinion, because I am in charge. If he ever started to challenge me on being the one with the final say, the dynamic of our relationship would change completely and it would be terrible. You can't have it both ways. You can't just expect to give a woman control of the relationship but reserve the right to veto her BECAUSE she is the femdom. Both people can't be in charge. There will be disagreements in a relationship, no matter how healthy. In order to avoid a stalemate, a fight, or resentment, someone has to be given the final say. The rule can't be "the femdom is in charge unless it is something the sub feels he knows more about and is very serious about his opinion." I actually don't think it's a hard dynamic when it's working and both people are devoted and mutually invested in the relationship. I would be a fool to totally step all over my husband when he has valuable opinions, especially with regards to finances. But he would never flat out tell me "no" -- period. Akasha

LadyBeckett -> RE: Single Femdoms - what was lacking? (4/15/2007 11:21:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: undergroundsea quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold I think I would really like to have an example of something that might cause you such magnitude of concern, after getting to know and living with a Lady that could cause you to end the relationship. For me, examples of major decisions are city of relocation, where to purchase a house, matters regarding beginning or ending my career, maintaining family ties, etc. If there is a disagreement, it does not necessarily mean an end of the relationship, and I am suggesting an approach similar to what is taken by couples without a D/s dynamic. I think a decision that has the support of both partners has a stronger basis than one that relies only on authority defined by D/s roles. Sure, such a disagreement could mean the end of the relationship. More often, I hope it leads to a compromise. I think the outcome--whether it will be a compromise or an end of the relationship--will depend on how important the matter is to each and how important the relationship is. If the matter is of moderate importance to the domme, and high importance to the sub, I imagine the domme would compromise and vice versa, or a different alternative would be sought. If the matter is of equal importance, and there is no third alternative, there may well be a stalemate. quote: I am not a "My way or the highway" in every single area. But when I know I have more experience or knowledge regarding something, and My input is completely refused because "he knows best" it is more of an indication that this is someone who is not going to let go of much control. Especially when it happens early and often. I am not suggesting a unilateral decision by the sub and favor a mutual decision. I am instead describing the opposite: when a sub does have experience or knowledge but his input is rejected based on the role (dominant knows best). In my opinion, the role itself does not define expertise or better judgment. Sometimes the domme knows better, sometimes not. I sense you agree. You indicate that in your relationship, you include the input of the sub and use your authority responsibly. I can imagine a situation where the dominant's decision is not as responsible. I can imagine someone new to dominance where ego or intransigence drive a decision not adequately contemplated, and the role is used to justify it. And even when the sub's input has been invited and there is disagreement, I think the resolution follows similar principles as the case when no input is invited. What happens if you have invited the input of a sub but you two still disagree and he feels very strongly about the matter? Cheers, Sea Greetings Sea, I always enjoy your posts so much. This one caught my attention in such a way that I simply had to respond. What a coincidence that the other post (on another thread) that I felt inspired to respond to also involved Dusty (we really must keep meeting like this [;)]). At any rate, all this talk about agreeing and disagreeing leaves out a very important factor in the equation...the scenario is being presented as *a relationship. With that understanding I am thinking the parties involved know one another fairly well...or should. The value of D/s being acknowledged in a relationship is that the communication, if the relationship truly is D/s, is 100% honest 100% of the time, therefore, like it or not there are very few, if any, surprises. Then* beyond that...within the situation there may be one in the relationship who is firmly locked in whatever position they brought to the table, while the other is fine with compromise. It could be either one of them in either position, and within the D/s structure and understanding, that would be just fine...as long as the structure of the relationship wasn't damaged and the communication remained 100% honest 100% of the time. It's all a matter of consideration and what is best for all. I suppose the level of commitment, by both parties involved, is a real consideration also. Dedication is a two way street. You asked, "What happens if you have the input of a sub but you two still disagree and he feels very strongly about the matter?" That question is what caught my eye as I browsed the topics. What does happen? I would be interested to know the sub perspective on that, but mine is that the matter should be either tabled to allow more time for researching the issue being considered for more information, for the parties involved to "rest their minds" from the issue for a little while which will allow them to approach it fresh and refreshed later on, or allow that ultimately one must compromise for the good of the relationship, if the relationship is meant to have any longevity at all. It takes two to...tango [;)] Do write on! you are such a pleasure to read.

littlesarbonn -> RE: Single Femdoms - what was lacking? (4/15/2007 11:39:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyBeckett You asked, "What happens if you have the input of a sub but you two still disagree and he feels very strongly about the matter?" That question is what caught my eye as I browsed the topics. What does happen? I would be interested to know the sub perspective on that, For me, once it hits the point where it is obvious that we're at an impasse, I'm going to give ground here and check my ego at the door. In the end, it's going to be her decision, even if I disagree with it. What that would say to me is that if she's REALLY in charge of the two of us, there has to come a point where she is going to REALLY be in charge of the two of us. That translates to decisions, politics, religious questions, to practically everything. I may disagree vehemently, but if she's listened to my protest and has decided that she's still right, the true test of the relationship and its power dynamic is whether or not I am going to go along. I teach debate to a nationally ranked university team, so if I can't convince her of something I believe in, then perhaps it's time to check my opinion at the door and realize that perhaps this is one battle best not fought.

undergroundsea -> RE: Single Femdoms - what was lacking? (4/15/2007 11:47:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHugs I see both sides brissle when there is strength show and a command/demand tone about one another. At times, it takes 'skill' in wording things as to be dominant without being domineering. In addition, there will always be personality conflicts that will crop up. Communication really has to be mutual and respectful on both sides. I agree. On a related note, my sum response is a mix of responses of different parts of me: my submissive part, my personality, more. My submissive part responds to a my-way-or-the-highway approach one way. My personality responds to it much like one does outside the context of D/s. That's one point. Also, I respond defensively upon suggestion that a sub is a lesser person. Hearing a my-way-or-the-highway approach seems to suggest to me that a sub's needs and wants matter less, and creates that feeling in me. For some subs this feeling is fine and even desired. For me, some degree of parity about the fundamental worth and respect for each person is important. So how something is presented can determine whether it feels to me in the context of roles consensually chosen, or as something that challenges my sense of self worth and, consequently, makes me defensive. So how something is presented can touch the submissive in me, or the part of my personality that responds like those outside submission. This idea is relevant for a domme with whom I am involved for how to better reach me (what buttons disrupt a submissive space or mindset), and for me to check against the defensive response via appropriately processing and realigning perspectives. To continue to comment on the nature and benefit of this discussion, I think each side is also focusing more on scenarios problematic from their angle. I think seeing the scenarios from the different angles is fair enough because it helps complete the overall picture, and each will walk away with a little more insight about matters that matter to the other. Also, I think this discussion is useful for achieving self awareness and defining compatibility. It seems there is a spectrum for the role D/s plays in one's life: from a sexual expression only (bedroom only) at one end, to a sexual and romantic expression (bedroom and beyond but not necessarily M/s) in the middle, to an all encompassing relationship expression with high level of detail about the scope of the control at the other end. Really, this description of the spectrum does not cover all possibilities but it conveys the general idea about relevance of such a spectrum for compatibility. It helps me think about where I fall on this spectrum, and leads me to think about where a domme falls on this spectrum. Gosh, the odds of finding compatibility just became tougher ;-) Cheers, Sea

undergroundsea -> RE: Single Femdoms - what was lacking? (4/16/2007 12:20:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyBeckett You asked, "What happens if you have the input of a sub but you two still disagree and he feels very strongly about the matter?" That question is what caught my eye as I browsed the topics. What does happen? I would be interested to know the sub perspective on that Hello Lady Beckett, Thank you for the appreciative words about my posts! I will gladly respond to your question. For disagreement on a matter about which I feel strongly, I expect it would be addressed as companions rather than in the D/s context. Accordingly, I think it would involve communication and an attempt at resolution outside invoking the authority provided by the roles. I think being told to accept a decision with which I did not intellectually connect simply on the basis of the roles would leave me unconvinced and might cause resentment. How I feel about this matter is likely tied to my feelings about parity regarding worth of each individual (that my concerns and happiness similarly matter), and to where I fall on the spectrum of D/s relationships. Perhaps with time, or within a given relationship I will change where I will feel differently about the issue of parity and self worth. I am reflecting on the core of this feeling and am wondering if it is a pride and ego issue. And perhaps as a given relationship grows, it will move the balance further along the spectrum (I currently see D/s to be a sexual and romantic expression and do not see it to encompass the entire relationship). Cheers, Sea

SusanofO -> RE: Single Femdoms - what was lacking? (4/16/2007 12:24:35 AM)
[:)]Off-topic but felt compelled to remark anyway: Wow, you teach debate, to a nationally-ranked university team, little sarbonn? Cool! I never knew that. That is cool! - Susan

undergroundsea -> RE: Single Femdoms - what was lacking? (4/16/2007 12:40:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha I actually don't think it's a hard dynamic when it's working and both people are devoted and mutually invested in the relationship.. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyBeckett At any rate, all this talk about agreeing and disagreeing leaves out a very important factor in the equation...the scenario is being presented as *a relationship*. With that understanding I am thinking the parties involved know one another fairly well...or should. I agree and was reflecting on a similar idea when I wrote the post in respond to Lady Hugs, and it is an idea on which I sometimes reflect in general. Sometimes the forum discussions take an us versus them flavor that is inconsistent with what I see in life. I am happy to say that there is not a rival or unilateral dynamic when the relationship is happening. Cheers, Sea

AAkasha -> RE: Single Femdoms - what was lacking? (4/16/2007 12:07:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn quote: ORIGINAL: LadyBeckett You asked, "What happens if you have the input of a sub but you two still disagree and he feels very strongly about the matter?" That question is what caught my eye as I browsed the topics. What does happen? I would be interested to know the sub perspective on that, For me, once it hits the point where it is obvious that we're at an impasse, I'm going to give ground here and check my ego at the door. In the end, it's going to be her decision, even if I disagree with it. What that would say to me is that if she's REALLY in charge of the two of us, there has to come a point where she is going to REALLY be in charge of the two of us. That translates to decisions, politics, religious questions, to practically everything. I may disagree vehemently, but if she's listened to my protest and has decided that she's still right, the true test of the relationship and its power dynamic is whether or not I am going to go along. I teach debate to a nationally ranked university team, so if I can't convince her of something I believe in, then perhaps it's time to check my opinion at the door and realize that perhaps this is one battle best not fought. This is totally different, though. When you are talking about opinions on things like politics, religions, etc. if your femdom has a different viewpoint, that doesn't mean you should. That would translate into the sub being a mindless drone who just gives up his own belief system to appease or kiss ass. Not the same thing at all as having input and final say on a decision that will have immediate impact; ie making a large purchase, having sex or not, or where to go on vacation. That's different from opinions on political, social or philosophical issues. Two adults can happily coexist with different views on everything - that's what makes us all unique and special. My husband and I often debate on things, and it would be silly for me to think he should accept my views as right just because I am the one that has the final say on what we do. Here's a good example. He grew up in an extremely religious family and can cite Bible passages better than anyone. He's also now an athiest, and has done more reading on science, biology, evolution, all those things than anyone I know - he is about as pure an athiest as they come. I did not have a religious upbringing, but I consider myself a spiritual person, and someone on a spiritual path every day, trying to get close to a greater understanding (but - not a big believer in organized religion, although I have tried a few churches). Do I expect him to become spiritual because I am ordering him to believe in what I do? Hell no. Do I demand him to not debate me when we have 2-hour long discussions where I challenge him with, "Well, how does science explain what love feels like? Surely you can't say it doesn't exist, you know it does, you know it in your heart - just like I know spirituality in my heart, I can feel it" (and he can quote me a study from an Economist article or whatever where scientists have identified the chemical secretion in the brain that causes "love"). I love being able to have these kinds of debates with him, and he is very much entitled to his view. But, when I want to go to church for a nice change, just because, you better believe his ass is sitting next to me in the pew, and he's saying his prayers like he learned them as a kid. Even though he is an athiest, and he would much rather be out surfing that morning. If I want to go to church, I'm not going without him - and he's right there with me, and there's no debate. Akasha

pixelslave -> RE: Single Femdoms - what was lacking? (4/16/2007 12:49:23 PM)
I see my original post has stirred some responses that I'll try to respond to with the little time I have available after having been away from the forum for only a day or so... quote: ORIGINAL: TigressFL quote: ORIGINAL: pixelslave I think you are truly quite right! There are several schools of thought that seem to abound here. Some of the ladies here are very rigid here in their expectations and not at all willing to compromise in the least. They seem to be looking for total submission from a man. Frankly, it is indeed very rare to find a man who is capable of giving a woman (or another man) that kind of submission. Like anything, there are degrees to which men & women are submissive by nature. There are those, who seem to be less common, that are looking for more of a submissive, but partner oriented kind of relationship. Personally, I think they have a better chance at successs, provided they're still willing to compromise at least somewhat in what they seek. Then there seem to be those that are looking for service slaves of some kind, cuckholds, non-sexual submissive relationships, complex poly relationships, or multiple subs with varying purposes for each. Clearly, there's a large variety of what women are looking for out there which is difficult for some of us to discern. On the flip side of the coin, I'm sure it's probably as varied with the men. What I see more than anything, regardless of what people are looking for is a "shopping list" of qualities or characteristics they expect potential partners to have and no desire or ability to compromise when someone comes close to meeting their list. Its as if those who are looking forget that the others they are meeting are people too with their own unique talents. abilities and experiences they have to offer as an added bonus we don't always see. How rigid do we have to be on our lists of wants and desires? What's the cost to us in lost time and pleasure when we could be having fun with someone who we just might be very compatible with us? Perfection is a myth. Unless you're truly perfect yourself, don't expect your ideal partner to be either. If you really think you are perfect, I'd suggest you seek help from a mental health professional. Having good self esteem is one thing, but being out of touch with reality and out of touch with what your strengths and weaknesses are is an entirely different matter. My point is that I see long lists of why things didn't work out. Most look about the same. Obviously some issues on the lists are quite valid. Yet others are perhaps less so. Only those who wrote them will ever really know. My only suggestion is that for those who are searching, that you really think about what is most important to you, and what things on your lists that you're willing to compromise on (to me, life is a series of compromises). Once you do, you may just find there's someone out there who could be exactly what you are looking for. - pixel Wow, I read this reply over and over again and each time I was more floored than the last. You make it sound as if the only chance we have is to settle for a male that will let us "Top" him from time to time but for the most part be a vanilla relationship. I do not know what circles you travel in outside of CM but I assure you there are many males that live a life of surrender to their owner (in and out of the bedroom). It is not as uncommon as you seem to think it is from my personal observation. I will concede that the pool of available ones is much smaller but there are still plenty out here! When it comes to laundry lists, standards and compromise, I think that there is such a thing as having unrealistic expectations, however, who is to say they are unrealistic outside of the person trying to meet them? You certainly cannot decide that for me nor can I decide that for you. It was never my intent to tell anyone what they can or cannot find, nor whether or not their expectations were realistic, only that often I've found in the vanilla world that those who have been searching for a very long time for a partner have very rigid and unrealistic expectations and are quite often unwilling to compromise on things of little importance to most. Nothing I said was meant to be interpreted as a personal judgement of anyone's situation or circumstances. [&:] I'd also like to add, that my definition of compromise doesn't at all equate to "settling". In part, it was used in the context of "big things" vs "little things"; i.e. priorities or choosing what is most important to you. In other contexts, and of equal importance, there is also a skill to be learned for creating "win-win" situations that can often be used as a part of creating compromises, which is far different from settling or leaving two parties feeling as though one of them "won" and the other has "lost". [8\|] In my opinion, learning to use that kind of mindset in dealing with others would go a long way toward creating a lot of good will and happier relationships around the world. quote: Those that I have met including myself are simply looking for someone that is "perfect for them". That's a far better way of phrasing it than I did. Thank you for doing so! [:D] quote: Keep the faith ladies! Do not allow messages of gloom and despair hinder you from what you seek. My post was not meant to be one of gloom and despair, instead one to encourage those who read this forum to be honest and realistic with themselves about what qualities they have to offer, what they want from a sub/slave/partner (pick as appropriate for your situation), and what the men or women they are meeting have to offer, as well as the potential those people they are meeting may possess given the opportunity. [:)] quote: MisPandora Pixel -- Am I hearing you right in that you expect the dominant woman to forgo all of what she expects in order to accomodate other's needs? What about hers? Clearly, I've misunderstood what you're trying to say..... No Ma'am, I think you need to have your hearing checked. [;)] As a sub (the "slave" part of pixel originated many years ago from my occupation, where I sometimes felt like a slave to my work), I think for a *relationship* to work for the long haul (please note the emphasis on relationship), both parties must be getting their needs met. To my way of thinking, both a Domme's needs and a sub's needs are equally important. If a sub isn't happy, he's not going to be inclined to do his best to make his Mistress happy; nor is he likely to continue to be her sub for a lifetime. I can say that as a submissive who is speaking from the experience of having found the courage to walk away from his Mistress and divorce her following 15 years of marriage; a Mistress who had increasingly became verbally and emotionally abusive - a woman he'd unselfishly served who all too often didn't care in the least if his needs or desires were being met. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m23.gif[/image] The gist of what I was saying is that a little bit of compromise in what one is looking for and willing to give in return, might make for a very sucessful relationship in which both parties would be very happily getting their needs met. [&:] That's all the time I have at the moment to respond to any of the comments that were made in response to my original post. I hope that helps clear up more questions about what I had to say than it adds to any confusion about it. [:)] - pixel

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Single Femdoms - what was lacking? (4/16/2007 4:37:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha quote: ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn For me, once it hits the point where it is obvious that we're at an impasse, I'm going to give ground here and check my ego at the door. In the end, it's going to be her decision, even if I disagree with it. What that would say to me is that if she's REALLY in charge of the two of us, there has to come a point where she is going to REALLY be in charge of the two of us. That translates to decisions, politics, religious questions, to practically everything. I may disagree vehemently, but if she's listened to my protest and has decided that she's still right, the true test of the relationship and its power dynamic is whether or not I am going to go along. I teach debate to a nationally ranked university team, so if I can't convince her of something I believe in, then perhaps it's time to check my opinion at the door and realize that perhaps this is one battle best not fought. This is totally different, though. When you are talking about opinions on things like politics, religions, etc. if your femdom has a different viewpoint, that doesn't mean you should. That would translate into the sub being a mindless drone who just gives up his own belief system to appease or kiss ass. Not the same thing at all as having input and final say on a decision that will have immediate impact; ie making a large purchase, having sex or not, or where to go on vacation. That's different from opinions on political, social or philosophical issues. I agree with you AAkasha, but I also don't think that littlesarbonne was necessarily limiting this to political and/or religious views. I am one that is always up for a nice debate also, and I would not be bothered if My slave had a different opinion. Provided, of course, that he wasn't terribly unhappy that I opposed his views. I have found that some people feel so strongly about certain matters that they will bring it up at any opporrtunity and try to shove it down your throat. That I don't like. I would not do it and I would not accept it being done to Me. However, it is interesting to note that little sarbionne, for one, would not place so much importance on some of those passionate things that he couldn't just maintain the status quo and make his Lady's comfort and happiness a bigger priority. Now I go back to pixelslaves examples of life altering decisions: quote: For me, examples of major decisions are city of relocation, where to purchase a house, matters regarding beginning or ending my career, maintaining family ties, etc. I would have no problem with mutual discussion on any of these things and would automatically do so. It is a sign of respect for your partner, regardless of the relationship. The one that hit Me the most was the "city of relocation". That would give Me pause. I do not have any intent of relocating, however, things do happen. As the Dominant, if there was a change in My life which caused Me to need to relocate, I would hope that My slave would relocate with Me. This is one of the things I see brought up over and over. "I am seeking a new Mistress since Mine moved to < Europe, Africa, the next state, two towns away...whatever!>. Interestingly, these same supplicants are now ready to relocate to Me, perhaps half or more a country away! It gives Me pause. Why didn't you move with your last blissful relationship? I would treat this sort of relationship the same as a marriage. It is serious and as such should be respected. It should not be easy to throw something away just because this is where your job is. And in the end, if the Lady is the Dominant, her final say is the the final say. Now if she is moving for some frivolous reason, and it doesn't make sense, then I could see a major butting of heads. But, I would also hope that you knew this person well enough to realize that this is not something that would be undertaken in a frivolous manner. Where to purchase a home...again it is up to the Dominant. Input requested and appreciated. If it is a matter of spending too much...well, I can't really relate as I would probably be content with less than the slave in many instances! Smile But it is still up to the Dominant in the end. I cannot imagine a reason why a slave would not agree to moving to a different house. If he had sound reasons, then those could and should be relayed to the Dominant. Matters regarding beginning and ending a career...Again, I have to say that if you know your Dominant, then it should not be a matter of concern, unelss it become entangled in the first example of a relocation. As a couple, with the Dominant being the ulitmate authority, it would be up to Her. This is another instance wherein a split, (in the case of marriage, I guess a divorce) would happen if the slave determined that his job was more important than the relationship. Of course all must consider the economic ramifications, but families have things happen, and I would view it as a level of commitment that is lacking if that would be a deciding factor to end a relationship. Otherwise, I repeat, one should know and understand the basic character of the Dominant before entering into such a commitment, and this is unlikely to ever happen. Maintaining family ties...Well, that is one that I have no problem with, although I reserve the right to oversee the amount of time. For Me, it is not going to work if slave sam goes to mom's for dinner twice a week, and has additional family outings several times a month. As the Dominant, I would reserve the right to offer what I consider reasonable. Here we go again, to the beginning of the relationship. Don't like it? Don't sign on... But this is an example where the slave does not present Me with his family schedule and then tell Me that if I don't like it, then I can find another slave. Because I will...find another slave, that is! Wink On the other hand, if said slave has, let's say, a terminally ill parent, and this causes a switch in schedules for a time, or even some travel time, I also believe it would be unforgiveable of Me, as a Dominant, to not understand and work things out to ensure that emotional lives are in order and there is time for the necessary things that must occur during such a situation. I am sure I have rambled on long enough here. What I am seeing basically, is that Pixel has presented very valid examples of what could cause a relationship to require less surrender. From his POV, he is seeking a lapse into vanilla equality for various reasons that he feels are valid and should be considered reasonable and automatic that both parties get an equal say and make only a mutually acceptable final decision. I do not see it as requiring less surrender, but more reason. The slave should know the Dominant well enough to feel confident that these things should never be a major problem. But the boys often need to hedge their bets with the big "what ifs". I find Myself wondering if this is because it is the last straw they can hang onto to try to prove that it is not reasonable for them to surrender completely. It's a lack of trust, or a need to hang onto that last bit of choice. Remembering to temper all this with the fact that I seek a slave...not a submissve. For those who differentiate, they can work out their own areas of nogotiation. I don't negotiate. I accept information and opinions that may sway My final decison. I am also serious when I say that once you are in My collar, unless I release you Myself, you have given up the ability to choose. Trust Me to choose correctly, with your input when necessary and/or appropriate. If you can't do that, then you don't belong with Me. And your final choice is always, of course, to leave.

sjskuared -> RE: Single Femdoms - what was lacking? (4/16/2007 7:01:29 PM)
One of the reasons I think of myself as a submissive and not a slave is that I have limits, in several areas. I won't allow myself to be permanently damaged whether physically or in other ways. If something gets to the point that it is a big enough disagreement then one party or another must either compromise or the relationship may be over. I think it is more common for the submissive or slave to fall in love with the dominant. YMMV. Some dominants use that or take advantage of it. I am most likely not going to get into a situation where I am not working and become totally dependent on a domme. If I did I would hope I have enough sense to make some arrangement for the possibility that we might part so that I would not be left ruined financially. In fantasy it might be fun to be kept as a slave at home, in reality thats not my personality, I would prefer to have a regular day job. That being said, distance is a factor because if I relocated I would need to find alternate employment, or vice versa for my partner. Because partner is how I view it, even if I am a 20% partner and she is an 80% partner. Real life, real decisions. The my way or the highway or bitch goddess types take it a little to far at least for me when they get into that mode. I am not going to be part of a stable or other poly arrangement. Its not for me. Things like that are what gets exagerated on the internet or these boards.

TigressFL -> RE: Single Femdoms - what was lacking? (4/16/2007 8:45:10 PM)
pixel, Thanks for your response. I certainly understand you better now. Tigress~FL

IamDifferent1 -> RE: Single Femdoms - what was lacking? (4/16/2007 10:43:43 PM)
Though i am but a slave-boi-wannabe, i feel as if i can relate a good deal to many of the frustrations expressed here by the Dommes. But...it makes logical sense that this wouldn't be any easier finding true love AND compatibility here than it is in the vanilla world.

pixelslave -> RE: Single Femdoms - what was lacking? (4/17/2007 8:32:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold What I am seeing basically, is that Pixel has presented very valid examples of what could cause a relationship to require less surrender. From his POV, he is seeking a lapse into vanilla equality for various reasons that he feels are valid and should be considered reasonable and automatic that both parties get an equal say and make only a mutually acceptable final decision. I do not see it as requiring less surrender, but more reason. Did I say that?? [&:] I thought I said, or at least implied, that it greatly depended on the style of D/s relationship and the parties involved. [8\|] To my mind, it's totally a matter of what is agreed upon between the parties in the D/s relationship, whether it was something negotiated between them or a matter of terms that were offered by the Domme and accepted by the submissive or slave (as the case may be). Each relationship is different and totally up to the parties involved to define as they choose. IMO, it's not for me or anyone else here to tell them how they're basic dynamic should work. What works for you and yours might be untenable for me and the Mistress that I choose to serve. While I did say I was inclined toward a D/s relationship oriented toward circumstances where there was also a partnership between the Mistress and sub, I don't recall in any way saying how I envisioned decisions would be made. I used the term partnership, in that we would both be in the relationship together sharing goals for our mutual benefit, a long term future together, behaving as friends and lovers, as well as Mistress and sub, with many activities and outside interests that I'd hope we'd share. How decisions would be made would greatly depend upon the woman who was my Mistress, the manner in which we decided it would be in our best interests, plus the most comfortable and/or easiest for us to handle them. I don't know that it would necessarily be a situation where all decisions would be of the sort where both parties would have an equal say (although it's possible they might, or perhaps at least in certain areas). While I wouldn't necessarily expect something as nice as a "mutually acceptable" final decision to be made, I would at least expect a "mutually tolerable" final decision on things of great importance to one or both parties, if nothing else, simply for the sake of the relationship. [&:] quote: The slave should know the Dominant well enough to feel confident that these things should never be a major problem. But the boys often need to hedge their bets with the big "what ifs". I find Myself wondering if this is because it is the last straw they can hang onto to try to prove that it is not reasonable for them to surrender completely. It's a lack of trust, or a need to hang onto that last bit of choice. I think you're reaching here a bit Dusty. How long do you take to get to know one of your subs before you take them as a permanent slave? Trust is something that can only be built with time and by observing one's actions over a period of time. Even when built over very long periods of time, one's trust in another can be destroyed in an instant, never to be repaired again. As I said in an earlier post, I think there are degrees of inherent submissiveness that vary from person to person; something that you might put on a large sliding scale. As such, I'm not certain that every submissive is capable of total surrender. Then again, I could be wrong and it might be a matter of finding the right dominant; one who can elicit that last bit of surrender a submissive otherwise can't seem to relase. I really don't know if that's the case or not. [8\|] quote: Remembering to temper all this with the fact that I seek a slave...not a submissve. For those who differentiate, they can work out their own areas of nogotiation. I don't negotiate. I accept information and opinions that may sway My final decison. I am also serious when I say that once you are in My collar, unless I release you Myself, you have given up the ability to choose. Trust Me to choose correctly, with your input when necessary and/or appropriate. If you can't do that, then you don't belong with Me. And your final choice is always, of course, to leave. The statements quoted above may be at the root of the "straw" you see men hanging onto. In essense, they only have one choice, "your way or the highway". Perhaps, they're trying to leave some "wiggle room" as they learn to adjust to that kind of mindset? I don't really know as it's a place I'd never try to directly go. But to each their own. [&:] - pixel

pixelslave -> RE: Single Femdoms - what was lacking? (4/17/2007 9:13:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MisPandora quote: ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive But those posts weren't describing pixelslave specifically, and so I don't think we can legitimately heap our frustrations on him. The way I read his post, he wasn't suggesting that a person change their core needs. I'm not willing to be pissed off at him because he's had the temerity to show up, express himself and suggest that a D might be willing to be flexible on some small things. I really dislike laundry lists. Maybe that's why I resonated with his post. I'd rather save my ire (and it's there!) for men who send one liners, who can't bloody spell, and who are wankers. MSS Perhaps you read something into what I wrote that wasn't there. There was no ire there at all; just asking for clarification on what he said and why it was said in the context of this thread, given what's been said thus far. MisPandora, I hope you've found the clarification you were looking for in the follow-up posts I've found the time to submit to the board. [:)] To use your analogy, I'd see things as allowing for someone to miss the mark by more than one tiny little qualification and a whole lot less than missing the boat by a week; perhaps allowing for several days at most (but not a lot more)! Please note: your actual boat's speed, destination, and nautical mileage may vary. [;)] - pixel

undergroundsea -> RE: Single Femdoms - what was lacking? (4/17/2007 10:39:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pixelslave quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold What I am seeing basically, is that Pixel has presented very valid examples of what could cause a relationship to require less surrender. Did I say that?? [&:] Pixel, now don't be trying to take credit for my posts! ;-) quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold quote: For me, examples of major decisions are city of relocation, where to purchase a house, matters regarding beginning or ending my career, maintaining family ties, etc. I would have no problem with mutual discussion on any of these things and would automatically do so. It is a sign of respect for your partner, regardless of the relationship. What would happen if you had this mutual discussion but found disagreement on a matter about which your sub felt strongly? What if you saw basis in his concerns and saw that he felt very strongly about the matter, but were emotionally attached to your position? What would you tell a vanilla friend or a relative to do who disagreed with a spouse and felt strongly about a matter, and the spouse insisted on a different approach? To me, at the fundamental level (emotions, unmet needs), the two examples (vanilla relationship and D/s relationship) of disagreement are similar and require resolution with similar fundamentals. quote: The one that hit Me the most was the "city of relocation". <snip> And in the end, if the Lady is the Dominant, her final say is the the final say. Now if she is moving for some frivolous reason, and it doesn't make sense, then I could see a major butting of heads. But, I would also hope that you knew this person well enough to realize that this is not something that would be undertaken in a frivolous manner. But, I would also hope that you knew this person well enough to realize that this is not something that would be undertaken in a frivolous manner. The scenario I envisioned when I wrote the relocation example is when a couple is seeking to find a new place to live--not where one is having to move due to career or some other reason. If one person in the couple has to relocate for whatever reason, usually the other in the couple supports the first unless there is a strong reason not to do so. The point about knowing and trusting your partner goes both ways. If a domme has chosen a sub as a long-term partner and he has ongoing concerns about a major decision, then there must be enough of a reason for him to feel so. I think discussion rather than roles should determine the outcome. In my relationship, in any scenario--whether it is relocation due to necessity, relocation for sake of change, or any of the other major decisions I list--I would like the matter to be approached as couples do in a companionship. I distinguish this approach from decision making done in a parental sense or as it is for property (one person makes the decision and the other follows along). Rather than provide my input and wait for a decision, I would like to participate in the decision making process and weigh the factors together. I value synergy thus created. And this approach to deal with matters together better fits my model for companionship. I recognize that my model is not the only model but I think it is a valid model. quote: I cannot imagine a reason why a slave would not agree to moving to a different house. If he had sound reasons, then those could and should be relayed to the Dominant I think we are imagining different scenarios. I sense you are imagining a scenario where a sub resists for the sake of resisting. I am describing a scenario where a sub voices his concern about a matter about which he feels strongly, and is overruled not with rationale but with simply the role. In my opinion, this approach--to enforce a decision with brute force rather than winning support for the decision--has potential to damage the relationship. It may not be enough damage to derail the relationship but, nonetheless, it has potential to deliver damage. In my opinion, if the sub has relayed these concerns and the dominant rejects them, what happens next depends on how important the matter is to each person as well as how important the relationship is to each person. I think this is a general model for social relationships, and it extends to D/s relationships. I sense you feel similarly based on your comments about relocation and career change. quote: And in the end, if the Lady is the Dominant, her final say is the the final say. <snip> I find Myself wondering if this is because it is the last straw they can hang onto to try to prove that it is not reasonable for them to surrender completely. It's a lack of trust, or a need to hang onto that last bit of choice. I think each couple determines its own level of power exchange (even in M/s relationships), and a level that does not have absolute surrender is not wrong. I think D/s is not black and white (that either there is or not) but grey. I think trust comes with time. And I think it is fine to hang on to some choice. I do not wish to surrender every single choice and I don't think that is wrong. I don't believe in any rules for how much I must surrender. The extent of my surrender will be defined by my partner and I. And if the relationship takes us to deep levels of surrender, then hey. The idea of slavery has appeal for the sub in me. From a distance, that sub side finds appeal even in the OWK. But I see the type of submission in OWK as a fantasy or a short-term experience--it would leave the rest of me unfulfilled. From there exists a spectrum for the balance between submissive fulfillment only and overall fulfillment. I am the sum of my sub side and the rest of me, and am happy with what this balance brings. Within this sum and balance, I value companionship and romance as well as submission. I find appeal in a relationship that has marked power imbalance and does not include a romantic or companionship components. However, I do not see this relationship to align with my long term relationship goals and would not see such a relationship as one that could be permanent. Some of your parallels to companionship make me wonder if you see your relationship as an alternative to marriage, and, if so, you are not alone in this perspective. I see my long term submissive relationship to be within marriage or companionship, and I am not alone in this perspective. In theory, I think companionship and affection is more fundamental than BDSM alone to me. I plan to not test this theory ;-) quote: But this is an example where the slave does not present Me with his family schedule and then tell Me that if I don't like it, then I can find another slave. Because I will...find another slave, that is! Wink Fair enough. I agree that tone or level of conversation would not be appropriate. However, I feel the same about such an uncompromising position from a domme. If I encounter an unwillingness to discuss or hear matters with a statement that if I don't like then I can leave, then I imagine that is what will occur. quote: I am also serious when I say that once you are in My collar, unless I release you Myself, you have given up the ability to choose. While you may be an honorable person who gives credence to this approach, in general I disagree with it. I know a woman who was collared to a man. The man began to play with another woman and neglected her--there was hardly any contact or communication with her. She asked to be released and he denied the release and continued to neglect her. Their relationship was not based on emotional masochism where this behavior fell under context of agreed upon D/s. I saw his behavior as unfair and advised her to release herself. I would give similar advice to anyone who is under a collar and feels to be unhappy and in an unfair situation--I think the sub does not require persmission to leave the relationship. If the dominant deserves enough trust to say that there cannot be a scenario where a sub would want to leave the relationship, then why is it prohibited completely? If the situation will not arise, why forbid it? I think instead a dominant should rely on retaining the sub's interest and loyalty with the relationship. I think BDSM enthusiasts are human. And I think various traits--good or not--are distributed across all roles much like they are amongst humans in general. I define a dominant as a person who finds psychosexual gratification in being in a dominant role. Per this definition, I don't think all dominants are by default honorable or wise. I don't think a sub can blindly trust a dominant simply for the role--I think this trust is based on character. Some basic trust may exist at the outset and I think deeper trust comes with time and is earned. Even when trust is earned, sometimes it is lost or relationships go south. Loving relationships sometimes end in ugly ways. Two people who at one time gave each their all can become that much selfish. D/s relationships are not immune from such outcomes. So I think it is fair for a sub to leave a relationship if the relationship leaves the sub unhappy and unfulfilled. For the same reason, I think it is fair for a sub to question a decision when there seems a need to do so. Cheers, Sea

undergroundsea -> RE: Single Femdoms - what was lacking? (4/17/2007 10:45:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha I can see a very bad situation when a sub does not agree and says "You are just being stubborn and want your way because you are the femdom. Well, I want my way, because I am right." Here's another way to avoid this situation: don't partner with someone you find dangerously irresponsible. Most subs indicate they want to partner with a woman who is as intelligent as he is, if not more. I agree that that argument by a sub would be wrong. I would like to juxtapose that scenario with one where a domme does not entertain discussion and says, "you are just being stubborn because you don't want to surrender. Well, I want my way because I am the domme and I am right." I think the best approach is compassionate communication where each listens and presents feelings and needs. And I think the best way to avoid each bad communication scenario--the one you describe and the one I describe--is for each person to be careful about with whom they partner. Cheers, Sea

SlaveSubtoserve -> RE: Single Femdoms - what was lacking? (4/18/2007 7:47:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: basque48 It seems that a lot of men who are truly drawn to the overall premise of FemDem that I have encountered, who profess to want to engage in this lifestyle, in the end cannot truly submit. They themselves are dominant, strong willed, and just cannot give over the control they have bared their souls to tell you they must to be truly satisfied and happy. Its truly a puzzling issue to me. Could it simply be that FemDom in general has taken on so many hard line connotations? Great point Basque--- though i think it has more to do with the male 'resistance' to making that final step, crossing that final bridge which is so counter to our male socialization--- it requires some internal psychological work to realize the need to separate the normal need to maintain control in the normal vanilla world while simultaneously giving up that control genuinely to one's Domme---- it probably points to the validity of Elise Sutton's view that such genuine Femme Domme power exchanges can best occur in an already committed relationship like a marriage, etc. where this natural male resistance can be dealt with over time, vs. in newly forming relationships (which is what occurs on CM) based on the power exchange itself where those other relationship supports and structure just aren't there initially= makes it too easy for the male to flee at the first sense of discomfort or anxiety unfortunately. This would especially apply to that segment of the male sub population who are pretty successful and normally male dominant in the vanilla world= maybe about half depending on who you talk to, and could be more--- but it seems they are also the group most generally attractive to Dommes also so....

SlaveSubtoserve -> RE: Single Femdoms - what was lacking? (4/18/2007 8:11:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pixelslave quote: ORIGINAL: basque48 Its truly a puzzling issue to me. Could it simply be that FemDom in general has taken on so many hard line connotations? I think you are truly quite right! There are several schools of thought that seem to abound here. Some of the ladies here are very rigid here in their expectations and not at all willing to compromise in the least. They seem to be looking for total submission from a man. Frankly, it is indeed very rare to find a man who is capable of giving a woman (or another man) that kind of submission. Like anything, there are degrees to which men & women are submissive by nature. [&:] There are those, who seem to be less common, that are looking for more of a submissive, but partner oriented kind of relationship. Personally, I think they have a better chance at successs, provided they're still willing to compromise at least somewhat in what they seek. [8D] Then there seem to be those that are looking for service slaves of some kind, cuckholds, non-sexual submissive relationships, complex poly relationships, or multiple subs with varying purposes for each. Clearly, there's a large variety of what women are looking for out there which is difficult for some of us to discern. On the flip side of the coin, I'm sure it's probably as varied with the men. What I see more than anything, regardless of what people are looking for is a "shopping list" of qualities or characteristics they expect potential partners to have and no desire or ability to compromise when someone comes close to meeting their list. Its as if those who are looking forget that the others they are meeting are people too with their own unique talents. abilities and experiences they have to offer as an added bonus we don't always see. How rigid do we have to be on our lists of wants and desires? What's the cost to us in lost time and pleasure when we could be having fun with someone who we just might be very compatible with us? Perfection is a myth. Unless you're truly perfect yourself, don't expect your ideal partner to be either. If you really think you are perfect, I'd suggest you seek help from a mental health professional. Having good self esteem is one thing, but being out of touch with reality and out of touch with what your strengths and weaknesses are is an entirely different matter. [8\|] My point is that I see long lists of why things didn't work out. Most look about the same. Obviously some issues on the lists are quite valid. Yet others are perhaps less so. Only those who wrote them will ever really know. My only suggestion is that for those who are searching, that you really think about what is most important to you, and what things on your lists that you're willing to compromise on (to me, life is a series of compromises). Once you do, you may just find there's someone out there who could be exactly what you are looking for. [8\|] - pixel Great analysis of the Female customer base here at CM Pixel!--- i've been trying to get a handle on it myself since joining but i think you really analyzed it well and mirrored some of my own thoughts on it. Though my sense is your group number 2 is similar in size to group 1 but ...... j.

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