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Church council tells TG couple: "We don't want you... - 4/24/2005 5:11:17 AM   
onceburned


Posts: 2117
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
Status: offline
quote:

The meeting, called to discuss a letter from the church council asking Renee and Mayetta Usher not to attend the church, was quickly adjourned after the reading of a statement by council president, Carl Ross.

He said the couple is now looking for another church, said he was disappointed the situation has been reported in local media and said the issue has been very hurtful to the congregation.


Please note that Ross wasn't sorry about the hurt caused to the couple, only that his church was hurt by the publicity.
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RE: Church council tells TG couple: "We don't want... - 4/24/2005 8:06:51 AM   
knees2you


Posts: 2336
Joined: 3/15/2004
Status: offline 		The Church must be going by the Bible,
and what it states about "Why God made us Man and Woman
and why it is a Sin to change that."

If the Church is wrong then God will Punish them.

But the Bible is clear and There are Gay Churches out there.
They just don't teach What the Bible really says~


Sincerely, ant

(in reply to onceburned)
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RE: Church council tells TG couple: "We don't want... - 4/24/2005 9:47:29 AM   
onceburned


Posts: 2117
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
Status: offline 		Ant, I am already regretting that I shared that newstory. I truly hope that people will avoid flaming in this thread.

You and I have some very serious disagreements about what the Bible teaches and about the will of God. I hadn't intended this thread to be about theology.

But if you read the Bible literally, it does say that God made us male and female. But a transsexual will tell you that yes, they are male or female but that a birth defect occurred and their body does not match their gender (the gender that God gave them). Even Pat Robertson agrees with this. Going through the process of correcting that defect is no grounds for excluding anyone from church.

Indeed, Jesus taught that all people are to be welcomed. I think the council at that church in Iowa should study the teachings of Jesus a bit more.



(in reply to knees2you)
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RE: Church council tells TG couple: "We don't want... - 4/24/2005 10:01:03 AM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline 		Here's something I didn't get in Christian docterine.

Say you're born with a biologically female body, and marry a male partner. You finally admit that you are transgendered and have sexual reasignment surgery so you're in a male body. still with the male partner.

you were born a bio female, have xx chromosomes. Is god so shallow as to determine gender by what kind of clothes your wearing? It seems like you're still in a nominally heterosexual relationship.

Please explain?

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RE: Church council tells TG couple: "We don't want... - 4/24/2005 10:20:22 AM   
onceburned


Posts: 2117
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
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quote:

you were born a bio female, have xx chromosomes. Is god so shallow as to determine gender by what kind of clothes your wearing?


I am no theologian but I think the answer is clearly 'No'. The clothes, nor the chromosomes, do not determine who a person is. Genes may shape the body, which is why inherited diseases such as hemophila exist. But genes are still poorly understand. And huge errors happen which is why people can be born with non-standard pairings of chromosomes such as Down's syndrome or Klinefelter's.

A person's gender is in their mind, not in their body. (nor in their clothing)

< Message edited by onceburned -- 4/24/2005 10:21:39 AM >

(in reply to perverseangelic)
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RE: Church council tells TG couple: "We don't want... - 4/24/2005 11:10:22 AM   
siamsa24


Posts: 2426
Joined: 2/2/2004
Status: offline 		In reading the whole article it sounds as though there are only a few people in power that are opposed to the individuals being members of the church (they were not told they had to leave, only that they could not be members, at least by my understanding). The others in the church felt that they should be permitted to become members.

(in reply to onceburned)
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RE: Church council tells TG couple: "We don't want... - 4/24/2005 12:13:43 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

quote:

you were born a bio female, have xx chromosomes. Is god so shallow as to determine gender by what kind of clothes your wearing?


I am no theologian but I think the answer is clearly 'No'. The clothes, nor the chromosomes, do not determine who a person is. Genes may shape the body, which is why inherited diseases such as hemophila exist. But genes are still poorly understand. And huge errors happen which is why people can be born with non-standard pairings of chromosomes such as Down's syndrome or Klinefelter's.

A person's gender is in their mind, not in their body. (nor in their clothing)


This is how I feel as well, but I have met MANY people who believe that a person who has had gender re-asignment surgery is sitll having a homosexual relationship. ~shrug~ I don't get it.

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RE: Church council tells TG couple: "We don't want... - 4/24/2005 12:25:52 PM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

This is how I feel as well, but I have met MANY people who believe that a person who has had gender re-asignment surgery is sitll having a homosexual relationship. ~shrug~ I don't get it.

There is no such thing as "Gender Reassignment Surgery". No amount of surgery in the world is going to 'reassign' an individual's gender. GRS is a horrible term concocted to placate some people in the 'gender community' that didn't like the term Sex Reassignment Surgery because they wanted to distance this whole procedure from anything even remotely sexual.

~stef

< Message edited by sfgrrl -- 4/24/2005 3:34:02 PM >

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(in reply to perverseangelic)
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RE: Church council tells TG couple: "We don't want... - 4/24/2005 4:03:04 PM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: knees2you

The Church must be going by the Bible,
and what it states about "Why God made us Man and Woman
and why it is a Sin to change that."

If the Church is wrong then God will Punish them.

But the Bible is clear and There are Gay Churches out there.
They just don't teach What the Bible really says~


Sincerely, ant



What happened to "judge not, lest you be judged as well" and "treat your neighbor as you would be treated"?

Personally, this kind of thing is why I proclaim myself to be Spiritual rather than religious. I believe in God, I believe that Jesus Christ was/is his son, but when organized religion does horrible things like this to other people ... claiming that it is in God's name to treat people so badly ... it makes me sick. God doesn't want us to exclude people, God doesn't want us to be mean and nasty to people just because they are different. But people always use God's name as an excuse for their behaviour. From petty things like this to the KKK (while it wasn't a church, they were almost universally religious community leaders at the founding), organized religion has caused way too many problems for me (well, all of us) to be comfortable with.

(in reply to knees2you)
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RE: Church council tells TG couple: "We don't want... - 4/24/2005 6:46:11 PM   
Youtalkingtome


Posts: 112
Joined: 12/8/2004
Status: offline 		onceburned,knees2you and SweetDommes
I am not flaming.I just want to explain something that most over look.
Some churches are not strict because of political correctness.And the churches that are strict are not politicly correct.
The ten commandments do not change over time but people do.People should follow the ten commandments not change them.Same as the documents of the U.S.A..They were not meant to change with people.The commandments and our countries documents are guides to live by.
I talked a little about political correctness in my post in the thread that got deleted last week.

(in reply to onceburned)
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RE: Church council tells TG couple: "We don't want... - 4/24/2005 7:04:58 PM   
onceburned


Posts: 2117
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From: Iowa
Status: offline
quote:

I am not flaming.I just want to explain something that most over look.


Thank you for not flaming, but could you explain how the Ten Commandments relates to the situation in the newsstory?

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RE: Church council tells TG couple: "We don't want... - 4/24/2005 8:21:33 PM   
SweetDommes


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Joined: 10/5/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

quote:

I am not flaming.I just want to explain something that most over look.


Thank you for not flaming, but could you explain how the Ten Commandments relates to the situation in the newsstory?


I'm wondering why he posted that myself ... especially when, in the Testaments of Jesus and the Apostles (a.k.a. the New Testament), we are told by Jesus, when asked which of the 10 commandments is most important, that the most important one is the one that I already stated - "Treat your neighbor as you would be treated" ... THAT is the commandment that everyone should follow - if everyone could and would do that, the others would follow naturally.

(in reply to onceburned)
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RE: Church council tells TG couple: "We don't want... - 4/25/2005 12:04:35 AM   
MzBerlin


Posts: 378
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		This makes me really, really sad. These people obviously want to be involved in a congregation and volunteer for things. They really want to be a part of a house of worship. It makes me feel horrible to know that they're being pushed out of a place that should be welcoming.

I want to write them a letter, and tell them that I support them.

I don't think the church should "kick out" people who are so willing to help and are obviously devoted to their spiritual side.

I'm so upset right now that I can't articulate my thoughts. I'll come back in a bit.

B

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(in reply to onceburned)
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RE: Church council tells TG couple: "We don't want... - 4/25/2005 11:48:47 AM   
FelinePersuasion


Posts: 4792
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		I had a nice post all written out then collarme farted an kicked me off an I don't feel like typing it all back out lol

(in reply to MzBerlin)
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RE: Church council tells TG couple: "We don't want... - 4/25/2005 12:38:59 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sfgrrl

quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

This is how I feel as well, but I have met MANY people who believe that a person who has had gender re-asignment surgery is sitll having a homosexual relationship. ~shrug~ I don't get it.

There is no such thing as "Gender Reassignment Surgery". No amount of surgery in the world is going to 'reassign' an individual's gender. GRS is a horrible term concocted to placate some people in the 'gender community' that didn't like the term Sex Reassignment Surgery because they wanted to distance this whole procedure from anything even remotely sexual.

~stef


I appologize. I'm generally more careful with my terms, I simply wasn't paying attention.

A bodily change from one set of genitalia to another.

As I'm an advocate of the sex/gender split, this was a dumb typo. Many appologies.

_____________________________

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RE: Church council tells TG couple: "We don't want... - 4/25/2005 9:57:39 PM   
Youtalkingtome


Posts: 112
Joined: 12/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

quote:

I am not flaming.I just want to explain something that most over look.


Thank you for not flaming, but could you explain how the Ten Commandments relates to the situation in the newsstory?

Yes and no.
For every yes their would be a no.Their are contradictions in the bible.
And you can find people that agree and some will disagree about what is in the bible.
Religion is based on faith.Blind faith.
Example of what I mean but is not religious.For every scientist that says their is global warming their are scientists that will say their is global cooling.
So you would have to read the entire bible and then believe what you want to believe.
Good or bad.

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RE: Church council tells TG couple: "We don't want... - 4/25/2005 10:33:30 PM   
onceburned


Posts: 2117
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
Status: offline 		Huh? You lost me.

How does the Ten Commandments relate to the news of a couple being kicked out of church because one is transsexual?

(in reply to Youtalkingtome)
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RE: Church council tells TG couple: "We don't want... - 4/25/2005 11:10:03 PM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		I'm still confused to, chris ... *goes and sits on the couch of confusion*

(in reply to onceburned)
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RE: The Church must be going by the Bible - 4/26/2005 8:59:11 AM   
sissymaidlola


Posts: 518
Joined: 3/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

The Church must be going by the Bible,
and what it states about "Why God made us Man and Woman
and why it is a Sin to change that."

If the Church is wrong then God will Punish them.

But the Bible is clear and There are Gay Churches out there.
They just don't teach What the Bible really says~

Hmmm, sissy is already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth.

sissy maid lola




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If i don't seem submissive to You, it may be because i'm NOT submissive to You.

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RE: Church council tells TG couple: "We don't want... - 4/26/2005 9:34:54 AM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Huh? You lost me.

How does the Ten Commandments relate to the news of a couple being kicked out of church because one is transsexual?


I think heor she is saying, get what you want out of it. I happen to follow the ten comandments though.
At least that is what I'm reading.
Myself, I feel people should be welcomed period. Yep, it is very clear some of us are more confused than other's. That also goes with our dna.
One could debate this forever. Was the chicken before the egg? Was the egg before the chicken? Are homosexuals born? Is it learned behavior?
The one thing I can tell everyone is those who change their sex know from the day they are born. From their first thoughts. They know they are growing up in the wrong body. A simple DNA test proves that for them.
Once they make the change life begins for these people. Sadly most do not make the change until their mid 50's. Try to imagine for yourself living in the wrong body for 50 year's Having society put it's self proclaimed rules on you for 50 long year's.
Anyway, I'm off topic again. I have also read in the bible where it says homosexuality will not be accepted by god in the final hours.
However, what is one's perception of the bible and god? If you have the blind faith required then perhaps it would scare you. If you assume god is this super being we've all been taught who forgives those who ask for forgiveness, then why would he not forgive a homosexual?
Myself, I have issues overall with various religions. I've seen orthodox rabbi's teach hatred to their flocks. Look at jevohahs witnesses. Do you think they voluntarily come to your door and disturb you? No, the church tells them to. Do you think they don't know they are bothering you?
Seventh Day adventists, I knew a man a good friend who converted. Because his father was catholic they basically said he is not going to where you are. Therefore he is no longer your family we are. All holidays and all contact ceased to exist between father and son. He did not even go to his father's funeral.
Of course there are extreme cases and not so extreme cases in every religion. There is no universal way.
With all the talk of the new pope right now and his conservative ways. How many catholics out there do you think are not practicing any type of birth control? Are they still accepted by the church? Maybe not all but some will accept them.
So, for the couple in the article. They just need to find a place they can call home. They do exist but because of society's ignorance unfortunately it is not going to be everywhere they want to be.
It is not a perfect world and none of us here are ever going to see one. We have to suffer with the imperfections together.

(in reply to onceburned)
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