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RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/19/2007 2:43:56 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Actually to give the primary source of the assertion that More Guns result in less crime the book by that same name is the one most often cited

More Guns Less Crime, by John Lott
Plenty of information in it about how the statistics were generated.
Plenty of detractors opinions out there you can C&P to argue against them

The analysis is based on data for all 3,054 counties in the United States during 18 years from 1977 to 1994.

The book tracks crime in states before and after they shifted to Shall issue CWP systems and the stats show a decline in gun crime.
The stats also show that people who actually go and get the permits are far less likely to be arrested for any crime including misuse of the guns they carry.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/19/2007 3:01:31 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		I'm not gonna talk about gun laws, my personal opinion means nothing (even if I could sort it out enough to work out if I had one or not over this issue).

When I read the story about this shooting I starting thinking about all those students deaths, I started thinking about the gunman himself. I started thinking about what could have caused this tragedy. I started remembering back to school and how cruel children can be, although I was never picked on myself I do recall certain children that were singled out for being different and them being so upset. I started thinking about kids who lived in abusive households and kids that have been through all kinds of horrible circumstances and wondered what happened to all of them? When people become adults, they dont automatically "grow up" or become "mature" or "wise up", most of the times they are carrying around with them a whole garbage bag full of their past melded with their individual personality. Adults in my thinking, for the most part are just little children in big peoples bodies. I wondered about how many walking time-bombs there are out there.

I wondered about the kids who picked on others, if they ever thinking about the repercussions of their actions. I wonder what sense of responsibility they carry with them for the acts they have committed. I wonder if they ever "wised-up". Considering the state of the world and all the shit that goes on in the adult-world, I highly doubt it. Most adults act through  a sense of self-preservation, thinking only of themselves and their immediate comfort circle and don't really give a shit about another human being. Adults still carry with them jealousy, hatred, close-mindedness, suspicion of anything different, prejudices..the list goes on.

I've had some dealings with people with mental health issues, its so fucked up trying to deal with those types of personalities.. those people were kids too at some time. Dealing with someone with mental health issues is like being brought into another world full of craziness, crazy ideas, thoughts, attitudes. There is no real "relating" to them. Sure if someone get depressed a lot, you can "relate", everyone feels down at some time...but if its on a day to day basis that effects theirchoices, lifestyle and the way they interact with people..well for someone not depressed, someone balanced...its a pretty hard thing to have a relationship with someone like that, its tiring, insane and not really an appealing way to have to spend a lot of time and energy on. So anyways, I got to thinking, if this guy did have mental health issues, apart from being picked on from being different...nothing anyone could have done, or said, would have prevented the circumstances that occurred...a broken mind is just that..there is no relating to it in a way they can "hear".

So anyways, I wondered about all these things, wondered about the "causes" of a situation like this, and ive come to the conclusion, that I cannot point the finger of blame anywhere, cause I really can't figure it out, there are so many factors..when did it all begin? What was the original cause? I really don't know a thing. I certainly don't think its about "gun laws".

All I can be is sad for the circumstance, the entire circumstance and do my little bit to try and be a nicer person, knowing that even then, some people, some situations will not respond to that..and shit is going to happen in this world cause thats the nature of this world..its all pretty much fucked up.

_____________________________

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Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 182
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/19/2007 4:28:29 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

If what I asserted was true and I came up with statistics that prove it, you would simply dismiss that and pursue some other tack to pimp your agenda, so with respect to you, I am better served Not wasting my time. This is evident in the following passages


I have no agenda. My views are amply backed in the state in which I reside. If you do not feel like supporting your case with numbers, it utterly escapes me as to why you are presenting claims in the first place. I tend to back what I say with evidence, and if I cannot I admit it, or let the matter drop, or go find something that supports me. I have not made any claims on this thread that I cannot support.


You have not backed one assertion TO DATE. You just made the assertion that your views are amply backed in the state you reside.WHERE DID YOU PROVIDE SUPPORT? NOWHERE! You are simply a liar and a troll.


quote:

quote:

o, first you want me to provide constructive uses for firearms


Tools are not "arms". That is a pretty simple concept, please keep up.


Then don't ever use a knife again. Seriously, how do you even breathe? Does a state agency provide you with someone who tells you "deep breath" every 45 seconds?

quote:

you have never once demonstrated any change in position from your so-called “former” anti gun past.


Hmmmmm, I am not for repealing the second amendment anymore, I used to be. I am not against hunting anymore, I used to be... In fact I think hunting is more humane than raising meat. So please do not begin to tell me what my positions are.

I let your actions speak for you since you have so much trouble speaking for yourself.



quote:

and unless someone can show me numbers that state my fears are unfounded, well I will stick with my logic about that scenario coming to pass. The laws on the books favor my position


TWO MORE LIES. I have showed you something you said you would change your position on and you flat out reversed yourself. Somebody posted one statistic that substantiated my claim and without blinking, you dismissed it You are a troll with no credibility whatsoever. "The laws on the books favor your position. Remember how you don't make assertions you don't back up?  Again, you are a liar and a troll. You have not substantiated one claim made on here, and when you talk out of your ass you show more ignorance than Chapelle's infamous black KKK guy.

You have reversed yourself. You have been caught in your own lies. You have trolled mercileslly.Your grown up privileges are revoked with me, and no more time will be wasted addressing your nonsensical replies to me.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/19/2007 4:37:52 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiyari

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Last I looked which was a few years ago the antis were stymied by drops in violent crimes in areas where licensing was granted and used.


I would like to see the statistical foundation for such an assertion and compare this drop nationwide to see if it is just in these areas that crime went down, or was this a more pervasive trend... it is so easy to lie with numbers.



Here is one cite from a quick Google...

Gun Ownership Mandatory In Kennesaw, Georgia
Crime Rate Plummets
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1818862/posts



Posters on the free republic citing numbers without reference really do not constitute proof.



quote:


Sinergy

It always fascinates me how people post something with empirical evidence to back it up, and are then attacked by the posters they are disagreeing with, who, rather than post contradictory evidence in support of their conclusion, rely on name calling and attempting to pick a fight.

And on that note, I have to go pick fights with high schoolers today.  No rest for the wicked.

Sinergy



Either you just completely handled up and put your girlfriend in check by calling her out, or you just put her into the most foolish position possible (save for the ones she does opening her mouth) by typing what you did on the heels of her post, which perfectly embodied your criticism.

< Message edited by Pulpsmack -- 4/19/2007 4:38:17 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 184
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/19/2007 4:45:05 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

Either you just completely handled up and put your girlfriend in check by calling her out, or you just put her into the most foolish position possible (save for the ones she does opening her mouth) by typing what you did on the heels of her post, which perfectly embodied your criticism.


What the hell does "handled up" mean?

I was responding to your post, Pulpsmack, since you seem incapable of posting something without going on an all out attack at the person posting.  You seem to have a tendency to allow your emotions to take control of your actions.  While I dont mind you personally having a gun if it makes you happy, I am fairly certain I dont want your out-of-control emotions to be wandering around armed to the teeth.

But then, we had this discussion on other message threads and I am not all that interested in returning to it.  But since you asked...

As far as juliaoceania is concerned, she is intelligent, articulate, educated, and a big girl who really does not need any protection from her Daddy on an internet message board.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Pulpsmack)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/19/2007 5:01:53 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

Either you just completely handled up and put your girlfriend in check by calling her out, or you just put her into the most foolish position possible (save for the ones she does opening her mouth) by typing what you did on the heels of her post, which perfectly embodied your criticism.


What the hell does "handled up" mean?

I was responding to your post, Pulpsmack, Sinergy


Handled up in that case means calling her on her BS. I didn't think you had that in you to call her on it and now your post that falls on the heels of hers makes you both look silly, since you insist on defending the person who is clearly guilty of that. Read what she has responded to right above your post, then read what you wrote, then savor the irony.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/19/2007 5:05:22 PM   
kiyari


Posts: 631
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiyari

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Last I looked which was a few years ago the antis were stymied by drops in violent crimes in areas where licensing was granted and used.


I would like to see the statistical foundation for such an assertion and compare this drop nationwide to see if it is just in these areas that crime went down, or was this a more pervasive trend... it is so easy to lie with numbers.



Here is one cite from a quick Google...

Gun Ownership Mandatory In Kennesaw, Georgia
Crime Rate Plummets
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1818862/posts



Posters on the free republic citing numbers without reference really do not constitute proof.


 Ah... mmkay.

_____________________________

Black Water Dragon

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/19/2007 9:28:49 PM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack
You have not backed one assertion TO DATE. You just made the assertion that your views are amply backed in the state you reside.WHERE DID YOU PROVIDE SUPPORT? NOWHERE! You are simply a liar and a troll.


Well if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black. Where's your support, PulpSmack? You've bashed lots of evidence with the old "statistics lie" defense but have yet to offer much more than zealous opinions and personal attacks in return. You really put the "dis" in discussion, man. It is one thing to speak passionately about a topic but there is absolutely no need for you to be consistently and thunderously abusive.

AND THERE IS NO NEED TO SHOUT!

You want respect for your opinions, support them with facts not volume. You want respect as a person, try a civil tongue. You want to make the case for responsible gun ownership, stop behaving like someone about to go postal.


Z.



PS: The 2nd Ammendment is not evidence, BTW, and your interpretation of it is self serving at best. It certainly does not provide a carte blanche permission for anybody to pack heat of any kind, anywhere, at any time. If you can provide authoritative legal proof  to the contrary I'd be happy to read it and compare it to the rafts of other learned opinions on the matter.


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(in reply to Pulpsmack)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/19/2007 10:41:33 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

 If you can provide authoritative legal proof  to the contrary I'd be happy to read it and compare it to the rafts of other learned opinions on the matter.


I would say the same thing. I have really no evidence because I do not have an impassioned view point on the subject. I have not researched one side or the other. In order to change my opinion on the matter I would like more objective evidence which is sorely lacking when I try to google it... on BOTH sides. There are few statistics that have not been played with on either side. I am just not willing to change my view based on what seems logical to me without any evidence to the contrary. The waters are indeed muddy on this topic.

Invariably when I try to talk about issues like these with people that have already made up their mind in a militant way they have no interest in trying to sway my opinion, it is more of a search and destroy mission... as if insulting me will somehow help their "cause". Well, evidence, reason, the ability to articulate that without personal animosity or attacks goes a lot further to prove a point. If someone wants me to change my mind, well they should prove what they are saying. I have nothing to prove... the laws here agree with my already formed opinion... but I could be swayed.

Now I understand the passion for opinions. I have a select few things I am as passionate about, but personally attacking people and name calling them shows a lack of ability to form an articulate defense of one's position. It seems to be a common tactic around here lately... can't beat someone in an intellectual debate try hitting them below the belt.. when people do that I am at first disappointed and slightly disgusted...and then I decide it is much more fun to be amused...





_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Zensee)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/19/2007 10:46:42 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Well if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black. Where's your support, PulpSmack? You've bashed lots of evidence with the old "statistics lie" defense but have yet to offer much more than zealous opinions and personal attacks in return. You really put the "dis" in discussion, man. It is one thing to speak passionately about a topic but there is absolutely no need for you to be consistently and thunderously abusive.

AND THERE IS NO NEED TO SHOUT!

You want respect for your opinions, support them with facts not volume. You want respect as a person, try a civil tongue. You want to make the case for responsible gun ownership, stop behaving like someone about to go postal.



PS: The 2nd Ammendment is not evidence, BTW, and your interpretation of it is self serving at best. It certainly does not provide a carte blanche permission for anybody to pack heat of any kind, anywhere, at any time. If you can provide authoritative legal proof  to the contrary I'd be happy to read it and compare it to the rafts of other learned opinions on the matter.




#1. When it comes to abusive tones, I will simply state I neither respect nor care about reciprocation with respect to trolls. That pertains to one or two specific people, and having lost all credibility, that is no longer an issue with respect to this discussion. With respect to the "volume", that is the way I express some important points and there OFTEN IS the need to shout because people have been known to gloss over key points and respond to the wrong things. As such, WORDS written in this manner tend to catch the eye, and (wisful thinking...) eliminate the need to repeat key points.

#2. Right now I am in the midst of finals and I am pressed for time with respect elaborate citation. The fact that ALL citation is either dismissed, dodged, or otherwise discounted by virtually every person on both sides helps reinforce the futility of wasting time finding sources given the circumstances. I have no problem looking into the situation in a few weeks (I used to do this frequently in years past with regard to statistics until I found the presentment/methods on both sides to be dubious) because I do believe in the merit of my arguments and find it worthy of pursuit.

That said you can have two arguments: 1. In hypothetical land, is there merit to gun control or permissive ownership, or 2. In the United States which recognizes the constitutional right to bear arms, is there a reason for restriction?

This discussion (or the part RELEVANT to the topic) concerns the latter argument. This is about challenging the right to bear arms. Those in favor of control are arguing for the restriction or the removal of a fundamental right found in the Constitution... and is of the most sacred commandments of religion that this republic worships. Those in this position of removing/restricting this right have the burden of illustrating why this fundamental right must be restricted. All the opposing side need do is poke holes in their argument, and they carry the day.

It would be a different case if this was an argument for permissive carry in England where there is no recognized right and the law is as today, against permissive ownership. For the purposes of this discussion, I do not care about this kind of argument, or the state of other nations that don't have the same rights. What information that is brought to the table (if brought at all) is brought to enligten or reinforce, but it is not necessary to carry the day.

Moreover, when there any condideration to remove/restrict a freedom, there must be well-founded reason for taking it. There need not be a compelling argument for keeping the right if there is no compelling argument to take it. So, the burden goes to the restricting party. If they fulfill this burden, then and only then does the burden shift to the defending position. Even if the results are moot, there is no reason to take the freedom, because laws are made to solve problems (and all cynicism aside) not for the arbitrary excercise of authority. So, if there is evidence that gun control does not work, or there is no evidence persuasive on either side, there is no reason to make the law. In order to make the law, one needs to first illustrate that there is a problem and that the law drafted will adequately address problem, and then if and only if a compelling argument has been raised, it must not be trumped or nullified by the opposing argument. 

As such, I wait for a cogent, well-founded argument in favor of restriction. If and when that ever happens then I can be taken to task about providing backup to my defense. Until that happens I need not raise a defense, because the Constitution trumps the "guns are icky" argument every time.  

(in reply to Zensee)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/20/2007 3:08:30 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
If you are in the midst of finals - why aren't you doing something a little more productive than trying to belittle people here?
 
And if you just dont care - why are you even here?  And speaking of losing credibility - you are not exactly on a winning streak there hunnibunni.
 
This is a BDSM website.  It is therefore, perused by people interested in such... there are even people looking to meet others - you, yourself 'seek' at least something.  And although this particular section of the forum is not about BDSM and is an offtopic bypass, people still read and gleam an aspect of the personalities who post.
And being BDSM, there is a certain sense of what dominance is - and control is one aspect of the forementioned.
And you are showing a complete lack of it.  In fact all you have done is labour your cause, and destroy it's credibility and the credibility of people who agree with you.
 
If people do not agree with you, don't call them up on something that you cannot do yourself.  If you can't be polite and want to show respect to people who you think do not deserve it, at least show yourself some and learn from how your reactions are causing you to respond.
 
And remember, trolls are teachers too.  Forget that at your own peril.
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Pulpsmack)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/20/2007 4:33:32 AM   
darcyinshadows


Posts: 30
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack
the Constitution trumps the "guns are icky" argument every time.  


The Constitution has become for all intents and purposes an outmoded, useless piece of paper in today's world, because your own President openly ignores those Amendments which do not suit his quest for power and oil.

Case in point is the First Amendement, that of the right to free speech. Surely if this is the case then anyone should be free to voice any point of view, however outlandish and controversial, providing there is no incitement to hatred or violence (though this isn't always the case even with the self-appointed 'good guys' as we shall see in a moment).

Why then is it that as soon as someone expresses a view that perhaps the current state of America is a shambles, that far from being a first world country and the leader of the 'free' world that it loves to think it is, that it is in fact, the major cities aside, more like a second world country*, then such a person is immediately attacked as being un-American, and even threatened with violence, just because they actually care about the state of their country rather than blindly follow their leader.

(* Where millions of people do not have free access to even the most basic of healthcare, where the working classes and those who are living below the poverty are basically left to rot there by the powers that be, save for the the aggressive military recruitment drives who take their children, turn them into killing machines and then invariably ship them home in body bags under cover of darkness.)

Why is it that if you profess any beliefs that are not Christian (whether they be Muslim, Athiestic, Pagan or any other denomination) then the Church (with the full backing of the President and Senators, some of whom are too worried about losing the trappings of their benefit-laden offices to admit that they only profess to be practising Christians for fear of incurring just this wrath) attacks you for being 'evil' or 'misguided', and heaven forbid in some States that you even consider the idea of evolution as the laughably illogical, but frighteningly powerful Creationists force their ideas (intellectual rape?) on the minds of the American children and populace.

The point I'm trying to make is that just because the Constitution says one thing, it doesn't mean that it automatically 'trumps' any other point of view so long as the leaders of your Great Nation openly ignore them and thus render them impotent.

(btw, and I mean this most sincerely, good luck in your finals :) )

(in reply to Pulpsmack)
Profile   Post #: 192
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/20/2007 10:00:31 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Oh... I wanted to point out, here are California laws that I agree with for the most part. Guns are regulated, and while state law does not ban guns from schools, most schools have a notice that they ban them (at least all my UM's schools were weapons free campuses, whether one was a parent or a teacher, or a visitor)... they are banned at all California State Universities from what I know and have researched, and UC campuses.

Now I agree with these laws for the most part as a Californian. They seem fair to me.

http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/viewstate.php?st=ca

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to darcyinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/20/2007 10:04:42 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Shadows, Bush is also refusing to enforce our immigration laws which is grounds for impeachment.

(in reply to darcyinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/20/2007 12:29:56 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

If you are in the midst of finals - why aren't you doing something a little more productive than trying to belittle people here?
 
 
And if you just dont care - why are you even here?  And speaking of losing credibility - you are not exactly on a winning streak there hunnibunni.
 
You have taken my remarks out of context. I do not care about trolls or their opinions. And as far as credibility is concerned, where have I contradicted myself?
 
 
quote:

And being BDSM, there is a certain sense of what dominance is - and control is one aspect of the forementioned. And you are showing a complete lack of it.  In fact all you have done is labour your cause, and destroy it's credibility and the credibility of people who agree with you.
 
As much as I appreciate the public service announcement, you miss a few points. First, you mistake tone for a lack of control. Expressing disdain for a troll's opinion, or even a facially neutral poster's counter point for that matter, is not by any means the loss of control. Highlighting, underlining, CAPITALIZIZATION and even a biting tone do not necessarily equate to hurling objects around the room in rage and mashing out a response at the keyboard with balled up fists. Rest assured, people can be acidic just as they can be cordial and still be in full control. 
 
With respect to your second point about destroying credibility you are mistaken again.
 
It seems people on this board are so enchanted with logic 101 fallacies of argument around here, so I will not only use one, but I'll actually use it properly. To say my argument has no credibility because I express it as a real "meaniepants" manner is what we call an attack AD hominem. If a senile homeless man shouts at you "TUCK YOUR SHIRT IN NEAR THAT LATHE BECAUSE LOOSE CLOTHING CAN SNAG AND -AHHH THE DINOSAURS!!! CAUSE SERIOUS INJURY!!!" and if you discount his sound argument because he is smelly, demented, and loud, then you have committed that fallacy. Thus, if you or anybody else have trouble with the credibility of my argument because I don't bother to perfume it with flowery words than that speaks volumes about your critical thinking ability or lack thereof.


quote:

Number of murders committed in 1995 in the US:
20,043

Percentage of murders committed with a firearm:
68 (13,673)

Percentage of murders committed with a handgun:
56 (11,198)


13,673 murders committed with a firearm divided by 281,421,906 (2000 census) = 0.0000485 murders per capita (unless I misplaced my decimal point, which still makes the number absurd) 

This statistic right here shows that firearms ownership is completely benign. You just made the case. The restriction/removal of a freedom for the sole purpose of changing that number to a somewhat lower number (since regulation will never truly exterminate crime) is not only unnecessary, it is completely absurd.

quote:

Guns are used 5 times more often for self defence than for crime.


This is also a statistic in favor of the right to bear arms. That means guns are being employed as with the intention of safeguarding life 5 times more than they are employed for nefarious purposes. 

quote:

Doctors, statistically, are more dangerous than a gun.


Ban the Doctors!

So, I am not sure if you were trying to be helpful to all by adding the statistics or making an argument against somebody's point with them, but the bulk of them have clearly illustrated that gun control is not necessary.


< Message edited by Pulpsmack -- 4/20/2007 1:05:12 PM >

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 195
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/20/2007 12:51:24 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darcyinshadows

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack the Constitution trumps the "guns are icky" argument every time.  


The Constitution has become for all intents and purposes an outmoded, useless piece of paper in today's world, because your own President openly ignores those Amendments which do not suit his quest for power and oil.
 

Thank you, my revolutionary brother in arms and British expert on constitutional law in America. Your Anti-American tirade, fascinatingly irrelevent as it was, made NO constitutional argument whatsoever that the president ignores those Amendments. This is the typical US government analysis from those across the Atlantic who have not taken any effort to learn the laws they profess have been right/wrong/violated, and as usual serves no constructive purose whatsoever for this kind of discussion. I will point out however, in an attempt to make your tirade at least quasi-relevant, that if the American people were as truly repressed from the Tyrannical Despot, Bush Jr, that is EXACTLY WHY the founding fathers put the Second Amendment in place.


quote:

The point I'm trying to make is that just because the Constitution says one thing, it doesn't mean that it automatically 'trumps' any other point of view so long as the leaders of your Great Nation openly ignore them and thus render them impotent.
 

It does automatically trump any other point of view on The Constitution and US government which is supposed to act in accordance with it (shut up... I hear you all snickering, and yes, its a real chore keeping a straight face) when we are speaking on constitutional matters. The Constitution will truly be dead when people like myself give in to its death, and only then will it be on par with a relativistic viewpoint.

quote:

(btw, and I mean this most sincerely, good luck in your finals :) )
 

And I thank you very much for that.

< Message edited by Pulpsmack -- 4/20/2007 1:42:13 PM >

(in reply to darcyinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/20/2007 3:11:37 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
Ah, but you should be aware of trolls and of what they say - as I stated, Trolls are teachers too - again - ignore that at your own loss.
 
I do not take sides... so the statistics were not to jump on the back of either - they showed in equal examples that - no matter how much the argument continues - there is right and wrong on both sides (seeing as stats were not being given in any great depth even though people were asking for them).
 
However, I do state what I see - and yes, your condescending attacks (no - there isnt a 'tone' or inflection of course - this is the written word after all - but a 'pat on the head' really does not need a specific 'tone' does it surely?) aren't amusing in my opinion and just show desperation to place the person opposing you in a lower position - which failed.  You know, free speach and all that - surely I am allowed to voice them?  Meaniepants doesn't come into it - there is a huge difference in being 'in your face' and personal attacks on an individual, just because they happen to disagree.  Its a big divide for example between the fundemental christian and a follower of christ.(taking another thread into account as an example)
 
But they are only my opinons - and you do not have to take them seriously at all.
And as Darcy stated and I echo - blessings in your finals.
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Pulpsmack)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/20/2007 3:36:47 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows Ah, but you should be aware of trolls and of what they say - as I stated, Trolls are teachers too - again - ignore that at your own loss.   I do not take sides... so the statistics were not to jump on the back of either - they showed in equal examples that - no matter how much the argument continues - there is right and wrong on both sides (seeing as stats were not being given in any great depth even though people were asking for them).   However, I do state what I see - and yes, your condescending attacks (no - there isnt a 'tone' or inflection of course - this is the written word after all - but a 'pat on the head' really does not need a specific 'tone' does it surely?) aren't amusing in my opinion and just show desperation to place the person opposing you in a lower position - which failed.  You know, free speach and all that - surely I am allowed to voice them?   Meaniepants doesn't come into it - there is a huge difference in being 'in your face' and personal attacks on an individual, just because they happen to disagree.  Its a big divide for example between the fundemental christian and a follower of christ.(taking another thread into account as an example)
 

I make no illusions about making condescending attacks on the trolling poster, nor do I make any apologies. Many people happen to disagree with me here and have not received personal attacks.I may have attacked the argument zealously, but not the person. The reason why that is, is that good or bad, they made an argument and more or less left it at that. That notable exception went beyond this, however.  

You may find the method of delivery distasteful, and you may apply your personal standard of who the better person is: me, the "condescending asshole" or the person who has "trolled", and displayed a complete lack of integrity by failing to live up to the bargain in the discussion. Frankly, it matters not. I didn't come here to this thread to make friends, or post righteously. I came to make a valid argument among those who consider themselves thinkers. If you look at the merits of my argument and the merits of the other poster alone you can judge which is the better one. If you cannot/will not filter those other elements from your vision when you read, then the loss is yours.  

quote:

But they are only my opinons - and you do not have to take them seriously at all. And as Darcy stated and I echo - blessings in your finals. Peace and Rapture
  

Thank you as well.

< Message edited by Pulpsmack -- 4/20/2007 3:39:38 PM >

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/20/2007 4:05:09 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

You may find the method of delivery distasteful, and you may apply your personal standard of who the better person is: me, the "condescending asshole" or the person who has "trolled", and displayed a complete lack of integrity by failing to live up to the bargain in the discussion. Frankly, it matters not. I didn't come here to this thread to make friends, or post righteously. I came to make a valid argument among those who consider themselves thinkers. If you look at the merits of my argument and the merits of the other poster alone you can judge which is the better one.
 
I do not make judgements on who is better as I have no delusions on who is better than anyone else (well except for Darcy who is way above  for the obvious reasons) - I know and understand my view and have not changed my mind.
I did stated that your delivery lacked cohesion and did not do your position justice is all - IMO.  Its not distasteful, just tiresome and difficult to read more degrading comments, than actual content.  I persisted simply because I am interested.  As I said before - insighting action and thought with strong language isn't a bad thing, personal attacks just because one thinks of someone as a troll (which is all subjective anyhow) just loses where the thread was going.
 
Anyway - as I said - simply my opinon - learn from it if you wish - even if its just learning I am annoying for speaking how I see - or throw this post down the toilet and flush it away.  Your freedom, after all.
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Pulpsmack)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Breaking, 25 People killed in V.T. shooting. - 4/20/2007 4:21:37 PM   
Pulpsmack


Posts: 394
Joined: 4/15/2004
From: Louisiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

I did stated that your delivery lacked cohesion and did not do your position justice is all - IMO. 
 
Now some relevence to the issue. What was lacking?

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 200
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