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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/19/2007 7:05:26 AM   
MellowSir


Posts: 260
Joined: 4/17/2007
Status: offline 		Has anyone noticed that, ever since corporal punishment was banned from public schools, that instances of kids bringing guns has risen since then. When I was in high school yeah, we'd get in fights, but no-one even brought a knife, much less a gun. It starts at home, parents need to be aware more of their childrens' dispositions and activities, else bad kid=bad adult. The recent shootings at the college is more the exception not the rule, a good kid that snapped. He had sent videos etc. to NBC before he did anything, who wants to bet that NBC sat on it because they knew how much more sensational the news would be if he did snap. At least it helped to get the media off of anna nicole thank god. You want to control the guns then start at home by controlling the kid.

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/19/2007 7:19:37 AM   
cloudboy


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The whole viglilante motif of justice and safety is a heavily ingrained American myth. In the American gun culture, its not what guns do but its how guns make people feel.

Afghanistan is a good example of a country dominated by guns, and I'd say it hardly qualifies as a safe place.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 4/19/2007 8:14:43 AM >

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/19/2007 7:35:58 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Just to tack this on regarding banning weapons; in the UK many types of guns were "banned" after an incident in which several people were shot.
Gun crime has continued and almost certainly increased but since it is clouded by the race issue stats. are hard to come by.


The % of gun crime in the UK is low so any increase will be magnified when in presented in percentages.


It is not as low now as it was before guns were banned. Next year, on present trends, it will be higher still.

I am in favour of almost anything that will bring serious criminals to book.
If a few have to be shot, the sooner the better in my opinion.
However
I do not favour everyone being armed to the teeth, so I have a bit of a problem as to who will shoot, say, burglars when they are caught commiting their crimes

Guns that fire rubber bullets  might be a good idea, or those stun guns that have been mentioned..
It should not be legal to walk the streets with them tho'

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 4/19/2007 7:39:40 AM >

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/19/2007 8:04:38 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Just to tack this on regarding banning weapons; in the UK many types of guns were "banned" after an incident in which several people were shot.
Gun crime has continued and almost certainly increased but since it is clouded by the race issue stats. are hard to come by.


The % of gun crime in the UK is low so any increase will be magnified when in presented in percentages.


It is not as low now as it was before guns were banned. Next year, on present trends, it will be higher still.

I am in favour of almost anything that will bring serious criminals to book.
If a few have to be shot, the sooner the better in my opinion.
However
I do not favour everyone being armed to the teeth, so I have a bit of a problem as to who will shoot, say, burglars when they are caught commiting their crimes

Guns that fire rubber bullets  might be a good idea, or those stun guns that have been mentioned..
It should not be legal to walk the streets with them tho'


The vast majority of violent crime and most gun crime is confined to young male adults, particularly young inner city males and rarely affects anyone outside that group. This is according to the stats (which can't be trusted) but also to my experience when I worked in the probation service and the experience of probation officers in general and the police and any other criminal justice professional you wish to name.

Which brings us back to the topic, if one could prevent young males having guns, most gun crime will be dramatically reduced, just as preventing young males from driving will seriously reduce car accidents.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/19/2007 8:06:25 AM >

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/19/2007 8:19:42 AM   
Pulpsmack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Which brings us back to the topic, if one could prevent young males having guns, most gun crime will be dramatically reduced, just as preventing young males from driving will seriously reduce car accidents.


That's a very logical line of reasoning. The only problem is that writing "thou shall not" on a piece of paper and clearing the shelves of stores will not be successful (as evidenced by the illicit drug trade).

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/19/2007 8:29:06 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack

That's a very logical line of reasoning. The only problem is that writing "thou shall not" on a piece of paper and clearing the shelves of stores will not be successful (as evidenced by the illicit drug trade).


The illicit drug trade has more driving it than testosterone soaked macho culture but even here, a somewhat rational approach does reduce it but in most countries politicians respond irrationally to what they perceive to be the electoral pressure.

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/19/2007 9:05:52 AM   
Jack45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pulpsmack
Lower numbers do not mean causation. We have already hashed and rehashed the point that there are a myriad of factors in the United States that makes it impossible to compare it with any other European nation.

There is a reason that Canada and  UK have lower violent crime rates than the United States, it has nothing whatsoever to do with firearms availability. It does have to do with demographics. Our government does all it can to make precise analysis as difficult as possible however research can shine a light on this politically incorrect topic. When Canada and the UK have the same racial demographics as the United States they will discover exactly what drive violent crime.

As award winning cultural anthropologist and sociologist Marvin Harris noted  in  his book AMERICA NOW, White American males have the same violent crime rates or lower, as Japanese in Japan and Englishmen in England. That was written in the early 1980s.

The mainstream media doesn't ever touch that here in U.S. and rarely does the European or Australian press touch it either.

Mark Steyn, the Canadian journalist, observed in his review of Bowling for Columbine that he wasn't as brave as Canadian blogger Colby Cosh  in stating the bald facts about why Canada had lower murder rate, that it wasn't due to gun control etc.

Peter Brimelow   has a fresh approach in his article of yesterday.

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/19/2007 9:17:26 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You still haven't explained why gun control in other societies mean less deaths through guns and than less gun control in America does. According to your reasoning the result should be the other way round. It appears to me that American gun culture encouages criminals to carry guns rather than discourages them. Whatever it is, the widespread access to guns and its iconic status in American culture means more gun related deaths and crimes.


Meatclever, without guns there wouldn't *BE* a "United States!"

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/19/2007 9:33:55 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
I think it's pretty simple:

Insane college student + Glock = 33 dead, lucky it wasn't more
Insane college student + knife = 1 dead maybe if he has been taught how to use a knife.


Insane college student + fertilizer bomb = maybe hundreds dead
Insane college student + ramming his car into a corner bistro at lunch hour = ?????
Insane college student + a lighter at a crowded gas station attached to a WalMart full of people = ?????
 
The problem with the anti-gun lobby is that they continually use meaningless statistics in an attempt to justify their position. Someone hear said that more guns leads to more gun deaths. Well no shit ... but what does that really mean? Absolutely nothing. The Huns had no guns, and killed tens of thousands of people. It's just mindfucking words to get the result you want.
 
The only common factor in this instance is "Insane college student." To use this event as a way to promote a position in either side is the gun control issue, is pointless ... and quite frankly, a beyond weak talking point.

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/19/2007 9:36:00 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

The only common factor in this instance is "Insane college student." To use this event as a way to promote a position in either side is the gun control issue, is pointless ... and quite frankly, a beyond weak talking point.



Not to mention it is capitalizing on a horrible tragedy involving an insane college student to push a political agenda.

Sinergy


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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/19/2007 9:41:18 AM   
ArchangelMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar

Archangel that is why my response said i would gladly take away this civil liberty in order to have less murders or that is how i basically equate it.

minnetar



Right and I disagreed. I don't want to see more of our civil liberites being taken away. I don't like guns, but I don't think that outlawing guns is the answer. The people who want to get them for violent crimes can get them, whether they're legal or not.


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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/19/2007 10:07:52 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Jack45 said on the different rates of gun crime between nations
When Canada and the UK have the same racial demographics as the United States they will discover exactly what drives violent crime.

Many in the UK realise this already Jack...As you sy its not the "done thing " to talk about it tho' 

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 4/19/2007 10:11:10 AM >

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/19/2007 10:31:20 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

The only common factor in this instance is "Insane college student." To use this event as a way to promote a position in either side is the gun control issue, is pointless ... and quite frankly, a beyond weak talking point.



Not to mention it is capitalizing on a horrible tragedy involving an insane college student to push a political agenda.

Sinergy



Like the OP in this thread?

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/19/2007 10:41:30 AM   
cloudboy


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Status: offline 		I'm not necessarily "anti-gun," but folks who claim that guns make society safer and folks who claim the Second Amendment is the most vital in the Bill of Rights are off their rockers.

Regulation is definitely in order, and it is enabled by the Second Amendment. Such regulation does not undermine either the Constitution or public safety.

The most important feature of the US Constituion is Rule of Law and Due Process. Guns really don't really play a positive role there.



< Message edited by cloudboy -- 4/19/2007 10:43:12 AM >

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/19/2007 11:31:12 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

I'm not necessarily "anti-gun," but folks who claim that guns make society safer and folks who claim the Second Amendment is the most vital in the Bill of Rights are off their rockers.

Regulation is definitely in order, and it is enabled by the Second Amendment. Such regulation does not undermine either the Constitution or public safety.

The most important feature of the US Constituion is Rule of Law and Due Process. Guns really don't really play a positive role there.




Cloudboy, the second amendment protects the first.
We already have regulation of guns.
What we need to do is regulate nutters more. They never should have closed the state hospitals.
Yeah, let's make more laws that crazy people won't obey!
And what about Al Qeada?
Do you think they'd obey gun laws?

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/19/2007 11:41:59 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
I'm not necessarily "anti-gun," but folks who claim that guns make society safer and folks who claim the Second Amendment is the most vital in the Bill of Rights are off their rockers.

Regulation is definitely in order, and it is enabled by the Second Amendment. Such regulation does not undermine either the Constitution or public safety.

The most important feature of the US Constituion is Rule of Law and Due Process. Guns really don't really play a positive role there.


I'm unsure on this. Regulation makes sense on paper, but at the same time it's pretty clear that when things went bad in New Orleans, one of the first thing the local government did, was go around to registered firearms owners to confiscate their lawfully owned firearms ... and at the same time, put no plan in place to ameliorate the difficulties caused by those with unregistered or illegal firearms. This, not from some gun proponent website ... but from people that lived there, that came here to Houston. It was a big story in this area.
 
You have the right to think anyone is, or is not off their rocker. The people you think that about, have a right to be distrustful of their government. Some might insist that as a citizen, you have an obligation to be distrustful of those we put in power.
 
You have your rights, and they have theirs ... but one thing is clear, when you reduce someone else's opinion to "off their rocker" you remove any chance you ever had to convince anyone that their opinion is incorrect. 

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/19/2007 11:52:46 AM   
SeekingMatureSub


Posts: 18
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Status: offline 		Hi everyone...
 
  Just wanted to add this:  I am not sure how Cain killed Abel exactly, but I would hazard to guess it was not with a handgun nor a rifle.  Banning firearms will NOT end senseless assaults and wrongful death by violence.  Banning firearms will only necessitate the movement of criminals to find yet another method to kill and injury others.  Only when we can successfully obliterate hatred, non-communication, intolerance, and jealousy will we succeed in ridding the world of ruthlessness and tragedies such as played out at VT.
  Just my point of view...

< Message edited by SeekingMatureSub -- 4/19/2007 11:58:36 AM >

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/19/2007 12:29:54 PM   
cloudboy


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I'd be more persuaded if you could make the case of guns = a safer society and if you could effectively rank the Second Amendment ahead of either the First, Fourth, or Fifth Amendments.

Let's hear it.......

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/19/2007 12:52:23 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Jack45 said on the different rates of gun crime between nations
When Canada and the UK have the same racial demographics as the United States they will discover exactly what drives violent crime.

Many in the UK realise this already Jack...As you sy its not the "done thing " to talk about it tho' 


The demographics aren't that different. USA 75% White, Holland 80% White. Holland is a million miles away from violent crime of the US even though it has one of the largest percentages of none whites in Europe. Gun crime is less and even though it has more liberal drug laws there is less drug use, less teenage pregnancies despite lawful sex being younger. Racial mix might cause some problems but you can't blame it for everything.



_____________________________

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RE: Gun Control And Tragedy - 4/19/2007 12:58:37 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy



The whole viglilante motif of justice and safety is a heavily ingrained American myth. In the American gun culture, its not what guns do but its how guns make people feel.

Afghanistan is a good example of a country dominated by guns, and I'd say it hardly qualifies as a safe place.


Good point. Perhaps you should add Iraq cloudboy, now there is a country full of guns, it should be one of the safest countries on the planet.

The truth is the US is relatively safe despite so many guns being available not because of them and without them it would be safer.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/19/2007 1:00:36 PM >

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