RE: Gun Control And Tragedy

RE: Gun Control And Tragedy (Full Version)

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Sinergy -> RE: Gun Control And Tragedy (4/20/2007 8:34:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ostrichman1951 Here's a fun one..I love it: shotgun preteen vs. illegal alien home invaders NRA files Butte Montana November 5, 2006 Home invasion gone wrong for criminals. Two illegal aliens, Ralphel Resindez 23 and Enrico Garza 26, probably believed they would easily overpower a home alone 11 year old Patricia Harrington after her father had left their two story home. It seems the two crooks never learned two things, they were in Montana and Patricia had been a clay shooting champion since she was nine. Patricia was in her upstairs room when the two men broke through the front door of the house. She quickly ran to her father's room and grabbed his 12 gauge Mossberg 500 shotgun. Resindez was the first to get up to the second floor only to be the first to catch a near point blank blast of buck shot from the 11 year olds knee crouch aim. He suffered fatal wounds to his abdomen and genitals. When Garza ran to the foot of the stairs, he took a blast to the left shoulder and staggered out into the street where he bled to death before medical help could arrive. It was found out later that Resindez was armed with a stolen 45 caliber handgun he took from another home invasion robbery. The victim, 50 year old David Burien, was not so lucky as he died from stab wounds to the chest. 74 year old woman in Louisiana (one of our graduates) wakes up to find a man on top of her attempting to orally copulate her. She grabbed his testicles and squeezed. He screamed at her to let him go. She got out of bed, balls in hand, and walked him to the door, and threw him outside. It being Louisiana, she got the gun from the table next to the door and fired a couple of shots in the direction he had fled. His drivers license was found in his pants, which he had taken off to rape her. Sinergy p.s. We can bring up examples all day long, but a single example is not really statistically significant.

juliaoceania -> RE: Gun Control And Tragedy (4/20/2007 8:37:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ostrichman1951 juliaoceana said, "People should learn about the adrenaline response, the facts of how to prevent home invasion, and many other things, instead of relying on a handgun to be their sole protection." .. The problem here is that we now have a couple of generations of sheeple that have been taught and brainwashed to "not hit back" (self-defense).. they've been "drugged" down .. and "de-balled" psychologically and I doubt they even HAVE an adrenaline response .. to obediently let some scumsucking vermin line them up against a wall so he could shoot them one by one? How about ducking and dodging and how about everyone pick up a chair and throw it at the SOB?.. and start running and scattering around the room creating chaos for him to deal with? .. and how about going AFTER the MF (flight 93)? .. I have sympathy for his family, but no sympathy for that worthless piece of human feces .. too bad he wasn't run over by a garbage truck a couple of days before that .. but at least he's outta the "gene" pool and won't breed any more of his filth .. Too bad just one of those students or teachers didn't have a hand gun .. The adrenaline response is rather primitive and it really has nothing to do with being a pussy or our society. Flight, fright, or freeze, when the brain is overloaded with the fear response no one knows exactly how they will handle that. My Daddy is a woman's self defense instructor that does full contact adrenaline response self defense training so that people can learn to defend themselves in all sorts of scenarios by training the part of their brain that responds in a crisis. There are all sorts of situations that involve the fear response that do not involve physical conflict, such as traffic accidents. Your higher functions turn off, the very ones that society supposedly taught you, and you have no access to that knowledge at times. So someone that learned to use a gun on a calm day at the shooting range is not going to know how to fire it perhaps when an assailant attacks them. They may not even have access to that gun. It seems smarter to train with the weapons God gave me, I always have access to those, and if i learn how to fight when I have adrenaline coursing through me, I will be even that much more effective.

Archer -> RE: Gun Control And Tragedy (4/20/2007 8:39:30 PM)
The study by Gary Kleck tells us about 2.5 million defensive uses of firearms occure every year. ( This include times when brandishing the firearm was all that was needed to stop the crime, not only those times when it was nessisary to actually fire the weapon.) http://www.criminology.fsu.edu/p/faculty-gary-kleck.php As effective as a barking dog the sound of a pump shotgun being chambered will also send all but the most intent attackers headed for a forgotten appointment.

juliaoceania -> RE: Gun Control And Tragedy (4/20/2007 8:46:48 PM)
I did not realize there were that many violent crimes in the USA....I was just reading on Wiki that we have the most homocides and just about the highest crime rate in the developed world.

Archer -> RE: Gun Control And Tragedy (4/20/2007 8:47:55 PM)
All well and good to learn to harness the physical responses, good idea for anyone, but it does not automaticly follow that a gun is not usefull as a defensive weapon. Sure the responses need to be harnessed, but once harnessed a gun is still the most effective weapon one can have to stop an assailant who is bigger and stronger if it is available to be used. (ie if a gunshot doesn't stop them most unarmed efforts will fail as well.) Now I am not advocating unrestrained use of guns, I am advocating the choice being the individuals as to how much resistance of what kind they are willing to use to protect themselves and their family or others from an illegal use of deadly force against them.

Archer -> RE: Gun Control And Tragedy (4/20/2007 8:51:09 PM)
Well again to cite the study correctl the defensive use of a gun as defined by the study included times when a burglar was confronted at the window for instance by and armed resident and fled. Not all the defensive uses were against possitively physical violence threats many were as cited burglars scared off by a homeowner who was armed with a gun. This leaves open to interpritation if it wa defense against violence or property crime.

juliaoceania -> RE: Gun Control And Tragedy (4/20/2007 8:51:43 PM)
You do realize that even cops miss a lot of the time?

Archer -> RE: Gun Control And Tragedy (4/20/2007 9:00:08 PM)
Average gunfight according to the training I recieved when I cdertified in TX as an armed security officer back in the late 80's was cited as 3 shots at less than 10 ft with one bullet out of the three being a hit. Yes people do miss, but that can be trained for, and I'm not talking about the way so many folks shoot at regular targets. Shooting at various distances at small targets (2 liter bottles work good about the right size too) Practicing drawing the gun and fireing Practicing turn around an shoot under time stress (3 seconds to find and shoot only the green bottle with 4 or 5 bottles out there) Wouldn't dream of not training in shooting any more than I would dream of not training in any other form of self defense.

Sinergy -> RE: Gun Control And Tragedy (4/20/2007 9:04:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Shooting at various distances at small targets (2 liter bottles work good about the right size too) I used to kill bottles and paper and pieces of wood and bowling pins and... Dont recall any of them shooting back though. Sinergy p.s. Have you ever been in a weapons fight, Archer? I was attacked by somebody (I was unarmed, so to speak) wielding a knife once. Until you have actually faced a weapon held by somebody who means you harm, I tend to doubt you can speak authoritatively about the dynamics of weapons combat.

Pulpsmack -> RE: Gun Control And Tragedy (4/20/2007 9:07:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania So someone that learned to use a gun on a calm day at the shooting range is not going to know how to fire it perhaps when an assailant attacks them. They may not even have access to that gun. It seems smarter to train with the weapons God gave me, I always have access to those, and if i learn how to fight when I have adrenaline coursing through me, I will be even that much more effective. Comparing live action scenario self defense training to "using a gun on a calm day at the range" is as irrelevent as comparing the Advanced Carbine Course at Gunsite Academy to practicing the horse stance on the aerobics floor of your local gym. Apples to apples makes a little more sense. Moreover, there are just as many situations to illustrate where a firearm is the smarter and superior choice. Thus, there is little use comparing the two. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, and one might be better for individual X than the other. The "real" smart choice is to be trained, effective, and practiced with both.

Archer -> RE: Gun Control And Tragedy (4/20/2007 9:09:51 PM)
Doubt as you will I've been shot at twice faced a knife once and been 1/8 of an inch from shooting someone during 6 years as an armed security officer I've arrested and held for the police 3 suspects. I'm I an authority? Nope but I did have training and cited the figures as figures cited to me during training not as if I was an authority so take a pill. Mr Expert

juliaoceania -> RE: Gun Control And Tragedy (4/20/2007 9:11:38 PM)
That is a figure for a security officer that has been trained. The odds that most people are as well trained with their home hand gun are fairly slim I am thinking.

Sinergy -> RE: Gun Control And Tragedy (4/20/2007 9:17:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Doubt as you will I've been shot at twice faced a knife once and been 1/8 of an inch from shooting someone during 6 years as an armed security officer I've arrested and held for the police 3 suspects. I'm I an authority? Nope but I did have training and cited the figures as figures cited to me during training not as if I was an authority so take a pill. Mr Expert Thank you for that posting. Now, you are advocating from a position where you have both trained and used weapons under adrenalin that people can learn how to defend themselves against somebody by shooting coke bottles? umm, ok. MrExpertergy

Archer -> RE: Gun Control And Tragedy (4/20/2007 9:18:15 PM)
Likely about similar odds that they have been trained to effectivly fight off an attack at all, weapon or not. I'm not advocating wild west gun totin, I'm advocating trained use if you're gonna have one for defense then get training real training. something beyond the calm day at the range as you say. Actually multiple training is even better, the same training SInergy advocates would do alot of good for folks who augment their defense with firearms. The methods of cutting through the fuzziness would be transferable to any defense method.

Sinergy -> RE: Gun Control And Tragedy (4/20/2007 9:20:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Likely about similar odds that they have been trained to effectivly fight off an attack at all, weapon or not. I'm not advocating wild west gun totin, I'm advocating trained use if you're gonna have one for defense then get training real training. something beyond the calm day at the range as you say. Actually multiple training is even better, the same training SInergy advocates would do alot of good for folks who augment their defense with firearms. The methods of cutting through the fuzziness would be transferable to any defense method. This has been my point all along. Yet the people I refer to as "gun nuts" seem to spend most of their time attacking my position. I find it a bit odd, to be honest. But there you go. Sinergy

Archer -> RE: Gun Control And Tragedy (4/20/2007 9:21:57 PM)
Ah so nice to see you back on jumping to conclussions form Sinergy. I cited those as exercises that make the training more stressfull than a "calm day at the range", not as some full system of training, but then again you knew that already. Pretty tough to do full speed, and perfect simulation of gun use wouldn't you say. So as with any training you make sacrifices in perfect simulation for safety.

Sinergy -> RE: Gun Control And Tragedy (4/20/2007 9:24:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Ah so nice to see you back on jumping to conclussions form Sinergy. I cited those as exercises that make the training more stressfull than a "calm day at the range", not as some full system of training, but then again you knew that already. Pretty tough to do full speed, and perfect simulation of gun use wouldn't you say. So as with any training you make sacrifices in perfect simulation for safety. Jumping to conclusions? What was that word you used... "Mr Expert"? I have not resorted to peurile name calling aimed at you, Archer. I have simply disagreed with your position on this thread. You have not shown me the same courtesy and respect. Sinergy

Archer -> RE: Gun Control And Tragedy (4/20/2007 9:36:33 PM)
You knew darned well I was not putting it forth as a complete system for training. yet you put forth the absurd idea that I was although it was in the form of a sarcastic question. You attempted to make it seem like it was a full possition when it was in fact not. Part of an idea that adding stress to shooting practice makes for a better results when you face real stress was the possition. Using the bottles was one method of increasing the stress, practicing draw and fire another part practices muscel memory for the fact that you will almost never find yourself in a shooting situation where the gun is already out of the holster, I'm quite sure your armed and unarmed defense teachings address the same type issue. So what part of the actual possition (That to train for gun use one should include training that to the safest extent possible increases the stress level to something above a walk to the bathroom, Shoot at targets roughly the same size as the area you really want to hit and practice getting the gun from the holster into use as will most commonly be the case) is it that you disagree with?

Sinergy -> RE: Gun Control And Tragedy (4/20/2007 9:42:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer You knew darned well I was not putting it forth as a complete system for training. yet you put forth the absurd idea that I was although it was in the form of a sarcastic question. You attempted to make it seem like it was a full possition when it was in fact not. Part of an idea that adding stress to shooting practice makes for a better results when you face real stress was the possition. Using the bottles was one method of increasing the stress, practicing draw and fire another part practices muscel memory for the fact that you will almost never find yourself in a shooting situation where the gun is already out of the holster, I'm quite sure your armed and unarmed defense teachings address the same type issue. So what part of the actual possition (That to train for gun use one should include training that to the safest extent possible increases the stress level to something above a walk to the bathroom, Shoot at targets roughly the same size as the area you really want to hit and practice getting the gun from the holster into use as will most commonly be the case) is it that you disagree with? Targets dont shoot back. I was reading a thing about a new technology the military is experimenting with that gives an electric shock to the wearer of a belt when hit by the laser tag weapon. The Army and Marines are considering this because they want being hit to be extremely painful if not debilitating. This would teach people how to keep their head down, do what they need to do to avoid the pain, experience the surge of adrenalin, and still be in combat. My other point is that you are calling me names which really doesnt go very far proving a reasoned or logical position on your part. Just me, etc. Sinergy

Archer -> RE: Gun Control And Tragedy (4/20/2007 9:55:08 PM)
Nor does the sarcasm and taking the points out of context do much on your part. Funny that it came right on the heals of my own citing that your training system would be transferable to gun use traing yet it seemed to miss your respect meter completely. A for methods of training where you can get levels even closer great the military with an unlimited budget can do that but for the rest of us training opportunities of that sort are in short supply, so we make do with less perfect simulated stresses that are reasonably affordable. The key as you know is in simulating the stress level, anything you do to move it closer than standing on the line shooting at paper at a known range at a comfortable pace, benifits you some. The closer you get to real levels the better, but still nothing short of an actual attack will get you the exact feeling. OK so the Mr Expert thing was a half shot but it was also seriously a half recognition. You have a level of expertise that most do not.

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