RE: Where do you draw the line?

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mixielicous -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 10:24:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 for some of us, there is no "line"...when we gave ourselves to our Master, it was with the understanding and acceptance of the fact that from that point forward we are his to do with what he wills, including "abuse" if that is his perogative. this also includes things like giving up your former sense of self, "me" time, personal limits, etc. and for us these things are very much reality, not dreamy fantasy. i've heard this type of statement many, many times and still do not completely believe it. Everyone has a line. It may not be much of one as far as what you won't accept or tolerate but everyone does have one. i am a slave just as surely as you are and when i became such i understood and accepted that i was to always do His will. This did not include agreeing to "abuse." i suppose we each have our definition of just what abuse is. After years spent in a very abusive vanilla marriage, i had no desire to become owned by yet another abuser. i was able to become Master's slave/property because i felt as sure as i could that (what i considered) abuse would never happen in O/our relationship. The examples you provided of giving up your former sense of self, and giving up "me" time and having your former personal limits changed/pushed are certainly not abusive in my definition of the word. Submitting to Master in every way short of abuse is my reality as well and not a "dreamy fantasy." What i referred to as "fantasy" for U/us involved blindly entering into an M/s relationship in which both O/our needs, desires, limits, etc. were never fully discussed beforehand. Obviously all those things grow and change over time but the willingness to once again accept abuse - for me that will never happen. i know there are those who would argue that, as a slave, one HAS no needs, desires or limits and i say to that what i said above: heard it over and over and still don't buy it. That by no means indicates that i am not "cut out" to be a slave and a wonderful one at that. then you are clearly saying you do not desire a slavery or TPE relationship, and perhaps only desire D/s to a very limited degree To me, having any type of boundary or limit does not mean that one doesn't desire slavery or a TPE relationship and only wants a very limited D/s relationship. i am a slave in a TPE relationship and i don't go about setting limits and boundaries on many things. But i DO set a limit/boundary at accepting abuse, it's as simple as that. i think so many people have this idea that they just can't be a good submissive or slave if they have ANY type of boundary or limit at all and to me that's a sad thing because in actuality, i just don't believe that really exists.........slave luci i can only giggle at the "everyone has a line" bit. you need to read more of props posts, i highly doubt she possesses any lines, LOL [are you ready to be nominated for hardcore cslave of the year award yet prop? hehehe] [;)] other than that, i agree with her definition of abuse for the most part. intentional ill will [outside of the S&M context] pain to bring emotional pain, to bring mental instability .... anything that will be a detriment to mental and spiritual well being is abuse to me... so it comes down to : where are your personal lines. each will vary but for me, if He makes me feel like shit, outside of a "dirty dirty slut" context, it will most likely fit the abuse card IMO

slaveluci -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 10:34:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 slaveluci, i did not define abuse in my previous post. the other things i mentioned (no "me" time, limits, etc.) were just examples of things one gives up (including the "right" to not be abused) when entering into a certain type of M/s relationship. Noted. i define abuse as intentional ill treatment, severe neglect, intentional mental, emotional or physical damage. and there are certainly M/s unions where it's understood that all of the above is within the Owner's rights. There certainly are. i was simply stating that O/ours is absolutely not one of them. as far as your belief that everyone has a line, i am certain that there is nothing anyone could ever tell or show you that would make you feel differently, all i can say is that is simply untrue No, on second thought i do believe there are some rare individuals who do not have lines. There are people in this world who will accept any kind of treatment or abuse dished out to them and not think twice about deserving better. They will consider it acceptable and remain loyal to the abuser. My own aforementioned abusive marriage and my years of managing a domestic violence shelter have shown me that all too clearly. i just simply believe that not having them can end up being very detrimental and unhealthy. That is my opinion. i am not saying that people who identify as having no lines, limits, or boundaries ARE in unhealthy relationships. i am simply saying that, in my definition of things, that could very well be the case. as far as a slave having no needs, that would be ridiculous...every living being has needs. absolutely. however a slave may lose their right to have their needs met or addressed not in O/our relationship. i may not get my wants met but i can stake my life (and have) on the fact that my needs always will be. i cannot imagine it being otherwise. i think it's safe to say that you and i have very different relationships and very different definitions of what slavery, abuse, happiness, etc. are. That's cool. As long as it works for each of us, what more could ya ask for? [:)].....slave luci

slaveluci -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 10:42:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mixielicous i can only giggle at the "everyone has a line" bit. Well, glad you found it humorous but i can assure you it's not a "bit." It's a serious opinion that i hold. If i'm alone in holding it, that's cool. But it's how i feel and how i live my life. you need to read more of props posts, i highly doubt she possesses any lines, LOL [are you ready to be nominated for hardcore cslave of the year award yet prop? hehehe] [;)] This is what i was referring to when i said that i think it's sad that people feel to be a "real," "good", or "hardcore" slave, as you put it, one has to have no limits, lines, or boundaries. i am simply saying i totally disagree with that line of reasoning. so it comes down to : where are your personal lines. Yes, my point is that i think it does indeed come down to that with everyone. But if someone who is a total stranger to me asserts that no, indeed, there is no line or limit they won't cross, who am i to question that? Only they know the truth and it's not going to affect my life in anyway so i hope it works as well for them as O/our way does for U/us. After all, isn't that what it's all about? [:)]....slave luci

themischievous1 -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 10:43:06 AM)
The line is always drawn when it is something that may affect my unmentionable in a negative manner. My unmentionable and what is best for her always takes priority, as does my role as her mother. It trumps the submissive ID at all times. To me this is a given for any parent and is non negotiable. I would also draw the line when I'm feeling a loss of respect toward my dominant and know in my gut that there's something wrong with said dominant or his or her thinking, judgment, requests etc. I've learned to trust myself and my instincts. If it sounds as if it's something bad for me, it is, and it's not a good idea to ignore that soft, quiet voice that tells me that something doesn't feel right.

blushingflower -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 10:47:38 AM)
For me, a D/s relationship has to include respect flowing both ways. A submissive is a person, and that must be respected. It's one thing to take control of the details of a submissive's life (e.g. telling her what to wear, what to eat, when to sleep), it's another to interfere with her ability to live it (e.g. not allowing her to see her family, forcing her to miss work, denying her medical care). Controlling a submissive's life is dominance, preventing her from living it is abuse. Now, everyone has different limits on how much control they want to take and give, and that's something that has to be discussed and negotiated. But if you can't trust your partner, then you can't give over control. That's why trust is the building block of D/s. And trust is about more than knowing he won't beat you till you bleed, it's about knowing that you can tell him how you feel without fear of being belittled or ignored.

daddysprop247 -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 10:51:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mixielicous i can only giggle at the "everyone has a line" bit. you need to read more of props posts, i highly doubt she possesses any lines, LOL [are you ready to be nominated for hardcore cslave of the year award yet prop? hehehe] [;)] mixie, i am not even in the runnings. maybe with some hard work i could make it to collarme.com's 121st most hardcore slave of the year, lol.

slaveluci -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 10:51:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blushingflower It's one thing to take control of the details of a submissive's life (e.g. telling her what to wear, what to eat, when to sleep), it's another to interfere with her ability to live it (e.g. not allowing her to see her family, forcing her to miss work, denying her medical care). Controlling a submissive's life is dominance, preventing her from living it is abuse. trust is about more than knowing he won't beat you till you bleed, it's about knowing that you can tell him how you feel without fear of being belittled or ignored. Beautifully said, blushingflower [:)]........slave luci

mixielicous -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 10:59:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 quote: ORIGINAL: mixielicous i can only giggle at the "everyone has a line" bit. you need to read more of props posts, i highly doubt she possesses any lines, LOL [are you ready to be nominated for hardcore cslave of the year award yet prop? hehehe] [;)] mixie, i am not even in the runnings. maybe with some hard work i could make it to collarme.com's 121st most hardcore slave of the year, lol. ya, i remembered the 5 year wait part you mentioned last time i teased you about it [8\|] hehehe

daddysprop247 -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 11:01:32 AM)
slaveluci, you're right, the important thing is that everyone is in a relationship and situation which fits their needs or ideals and works best for them. if the rest of the world doesn't agree with it, phooey to them. [:)] however in the OP, it seemed clear that the two people in the relationship have very different ideas and expectations as to what a D/s relationship meant, how much control a Master should have, what limits should be in place, etc. and obviously that's a problem. now in my view, when a person has a need or desire to maintain control over significant aspects of their lives (career, family, etc.), retain personal limits, maintain ownership over the core of themselves (some refer to it as keeping a little piece of me), and basically at the bottom line ultimately hold the power in their hands, then that person is one who does not wish to be a slave. of course as you mentioned, how you define slave and how i define it are likely very different, so there ya go. i also don't think there's anything at all wrong with a person having all of the above needs and desires, it just means that they desire a different sort of D/s relationship than one which entails total control and surrender(such as TPE or slavery).

mixielicous -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 11:05:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveluci quote: ORIGINAL: mixielicous i can only giggle at the "everyone has a line" bit. Well, glad you found it humorous but i can assure you it's not a "bit." It's a serious opinion that i hold. If i'm alone in holding it, that's cool. But it's how i feel and how i live my life. you need to read more of props posts, i highly doubt she possesses any lines, LOL [are you ready to be nominated for hardcore cslave of the year award yet prop? hehehe] [;)] This is what i was referring to when i said that i think it's sad that people feel to be a "real," "good", or "hardcore" slave, as you put it, one has to have no limits, lines, or boundaries. i am simply saying i totally disagree with that line of reasoning. so it comes down to : where are your personal lines. Yes, my point is that i think it does indeed come down to that with everyone. But if someone who is a total stranger to me asserts that no, indeed, there is no line or limit they won't cross, who am i to question that? Only they know the truth and it's not going to affect my life in anyway so i hope it works as well for them as O/our way does for U/us. After all, isn't that what it's all about? [:)]....slave luci hmmmm well for the record DProp never that i have seen claims to be any of these things, i just like to embarass her [in a friendly way] because i admire her devotion to her slavery, and in MY eyes, yea shes pretty damn hardcore!!!!! and on a side note, [please dont let me offend you here, just my opinion as well] IMO, you really, cannot claim, that "everyone has a line" and i assume, that they just havent found it yet. . . to me this statement is as frustrating as many find the "true slave" [which also for the record i DO believe in but dont judge people who do not meet my personal criteria for such - all a matter of preferences, as it should be]. to assume without a doubt that there IS a line somewhere it just needs to be located, to me says "well, you may claim this, but i am telling you, even though i do not know anything about you, you are wrong, regardless of the fact that it may be true" even if this is ALL you have experienced [that no one is limitless] still does not make it true.

starshineowned -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 11:15:09 AM)
Greetings..~smiles~ Ultimately only you and yours can answer the questions you have. Remove the labels because they only serve to help with a vague direction of where you might find others with similiar views. Obviously..thats not a absolute. :) If unhappiness and negativity is the only result you see from whats being done or demanded of you..then I would not embark on that journey. You say that you have been together already for several years. Has this person abused you in your eyes where you were more vanilla together, and you had control of things? I would like to say that if you haven't felt it during that time span..then the cause of your questioning wether abuse is present might be more related to your not trusting him to make all the decisions for your lifes direction. It's a healthy fear and that particular journey of letting go of one's self completely into the hands of another is a scarey ride at times..no lying about that. Question is: Are you ready to take that ride? Well Wishes starshine Happy slave of Master Delvin

slaveluci -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 11:16:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 slaveluci, you're right, the important thing is that everyone is in a relationship and situation which fits their needs or ideals and works best for them. if the rest of the world doesn't agree with it, phooey to them. [:)] exactly [8D] however in the OP, it seemed clear that the two people in the relationship have very different ideas and expectations as to what a D/s relationship meant, how much control a Master should have, what limits should be in place, etc. and obviously that's a problem. indeed........ now in my view, when a person has a need or desire to maintain control over significant aspects of their lives (career, family, etc.), retain personal limits, maintain ownership over the core of themselves (some refer to it as keeping a little piece of me), and basically at the bottom line ultimately hold the power in their hands, then that person is one who does not wish to be a slave i would agree. i don't maintain control over those aspects or set limits. W/we are definitely in a TPE, M/s relationship though the OP and her partner are not and i'm not sure they want to be. That's definitely in need of being discussed and determined, for sure. of course as you mentioned, how you define slave and how i define it are likely very different, so there ya go. i'm not so sure of that now. i think the question of lines/limits is something we definitely have different views on, but i haven't disagreed with your definitions of "slave" or "abuse" at all. Our definitions may indeed be quite similar. Thank you for being willing to be cordial while debating these things out. It's been a joy thus far.........slave luci

MasterGremlin -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 11:26:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: heydollface Hello, I'm new to this side of the website but I've been thinking about the subject I'm about to write about lately and wanted some insight from people more experienced than myself. So, in a relationship that has the D/s dynamic where does the line blur between you being obediant and you being abused? I don't mean sexual limits, I mean in terms of personal decisions, your safety and the well being of your children and such. I understand that all relationships are different and there is no standard response or rule but if one gives control of themselves to another how are you supposed to tell where using that control blurs into abuse of power? If you think abuse is occurring or something is wrong how do YOU bring it up without being confrontationl or rude? Take me for example. I am in a new relationshp at the moment. It is not new in terms of years and we have a child together. We started out with the D/s dynamic and slipped into more of a vanilla relationship overtime due to problems outside the relationship but we have decided that we choose to give this a try again. I can't tell whether sometimes my inability to give up control in certains areas of my life is because we are not well matched or because it is him abusing the power he has. If me saying I can't do something is me essentially taking control or is this type of relationship basically a license to abuse and I should just suck it up? In my opinion, outside the real of fantasy there are always going to be things you cannot do but does this mean because one cannot give up all sense of character, personality and the right to not be in an abusive relationship that they are not submissive? I don't see why I should feel like I have failed when I try to draw the line between obediance and abuse. I don't know if this is a problem of it being a new relationship or if it's just me trying to take too much control as I've been told I am doing. I am being made to feel that I should put up with any amount of abuse because he is Master and he says so but to me that is something I would see from some teenage boy who thinks having a submissive just means he's gonna get sex on tap 24 hours a day hehe. I'm sick of feeling bad because I'm retaining some sense of myself but I don't know if I really have a right to feel bad or if it's what I've signed on for. Anyways, thanks for reading and some imput would be nice :) PS: I am not looking for an analysis of my own relationship here although I have posted pertinent details. None of you can know what I am talking about when I wrte about personal decisions etc. I'm just looking for a general consensus Keeping this as a discussion about D/s in general vs your unique situation which no one can give you a 100% correct answer because that has to come from within you, here is how I as a dominant distinguish between abuse and control. Intent. As a dominant what is my intent with the control I am trying to exert over a sub? For example if I control all the money in a relationship, is that so the sub becomes economically trapped (abuse) or is it so that our goals can be achieved (not abuse)? To someone looking into a relationship many actions both sexual and non-sexual can appear to be abuse because the person doesn't understand the dominant's intent behind the actions. Do I push her (maybe even physically) towards a difficult task because I want to degrade her and take her down a notch (abuse) or because I feel that her accomplishing that task will better her and/or our relationship (not abuse)? While you can never be 100% what is inside someoneelse's head, I would think before starting this type of relationship with such a dramatic power exchange a person would spend a lot of time learning about someone to find out what their intent is. MG

slaveluci -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 11:26:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mixielicous and on a side note, [please dont let me offend you here, just my opinion as well] IMO, you really, cannot claim, that "everyone has a line" and i assume, that they just havent found it yet. . . No offense taken. i'm not "claiming" that per se, i'm just saying that's what i believe. i really do believe that and i'm entitled to do so. As i've already stated above, it's not my place to determine who has lines or not. If anyone says they do not, only they really know. i was simply just stating my thoughts on it. to assume without a doubt that there IS a line somewhere it just needs to be located, to me says "well, you may claim this, but i am telling you, even though i do not know anything about you, you are wrong, regardless of the fact that it may be true" yes, i see your point. i'm not assuming that "without a doubt." i've stated many times on these threads that making assumptions about others' relationships is not good. Only they truly know how things are and why they are that way. i certainly don't claim that no one exists who has "no limits" and i already stated that in a previous post. even if this is ALL you have experienced [that no one is limitless] still does not make it true. how can i argue with that? [8D] You are correct. i certainly have never claimed i have "seen it all." Anything is indeed possible. There's so much to learn of................slave luci

littleone35 -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 3:29:26 PM)
Abuse is different for everyone for some beeing flogged is heavan to me in my particular relationship that would be abuse. You need to talk to him communtion is so important. Tell him the things you feel are abusive maybe he does not see it that way. You two nedd to set some boundries is what is sounds like from your post. Best of luck. Matt's littleone

Casie -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 4:44:56 PM)
Only you can truly awnser those questions. I think you need to open the lines of communication. Set some bounderies and try to build trust. With out communication NO relationship bdsm or nilla can work. Good luck and Best wishes Casie

Celeste43 -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/17/2007 6:16:32 PM)
As already addressed, couple therapy. Me? If someone said that he was missing out on others by wasting his time with me, I'd tell him he was welcome to leave and I wasn't going to waste my time with him because he didn't deserve me. I'd also have seen a divorce lawyer ahead of time so I knew my options when he threatened to act on his emotionally abusive statements. And yes, cutting you down constantly is emotional abuse in my book. But by no means would I submit to someone who didn't have my best interests, and those of our child, in the forefront of his mind at all times.

MsCfromMelbourne -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/19/2007 9:18:27 PM)
Great observations already, but a couple of extra points might help you 1) Conflict resolution Every relationship - D/s or otherwise - involves countless day to day power struggles (conflicts). Usually they are resolved by compromise. Sometimes you win; sometimes you lose. Its the dance of give and take necessary if you want a successful long term partnership (not everyone does, of course. Some people just want serial D/s romance and good luck to them) It is completely naive for one partner to expect and demand that the other always yield in every conflict. Whether you agreed to be a "slave" or not, abdicating all responsibility for your life (and the welfare of your child) by yielding to the Master in every conflict is not an admirable goal, it is regression into babyhood. Trying to fix a troubled relationship by making one side the "Dominant" (winner of all conflicts) and the other "submissive" (loser of all conflicts) is absolutely doomed. 2) Power balance It takes 2 people to make a relationship work but only one to destroy it by walking away, right? Therefore the partner most prepared to walk away is the one who has the power. Not the Dominant and not the submisisve: the one most willing to walk out. Your "Master" is making noises that he could leave you (and your baby) as a way of snatching the power in the relationship. With that power he can manipulate you to his wishes, right? Because he knows you will bow (unwillingly) to his will in the hope it makes him stay. I have bad news for you - this Master/slave plan is not going to save your relationship. Sorry. Someone already suggested see a divorce lawyer. Its not as easy as that of course. To even up the power imbalance, you need to attack his power base, namely him (pretending?) he wants to go and you wanting him to stay. One thing you could do is say "sure leave if you like. I cannot stop you. But while you are here I will not let you manipulate me using threats to leave". Another is to say "don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. I met a Real Dominant online and he will be moving in as soon as you and your shit are gone". This is not recommeded if you want to keep the relationship, but do you see that it takes his power base away? You will think of smart ways to even up the power balance. If you guys stabilise this relationship and later (much later) you give him power and control over you, it will be willingly and by consent (the way it should be) not out of desparation or manipulation.

jaunty1 -> RE: Where do you draw the line? (4/28/2007 4:21:22 PM)
quote: So, in a relationship that has the D/s dynamic where does the line blur between you being obediant and you being abused? Hello heydollface I once told my girl that the minute she felt in fear of her life, she was to do everything in her power to get away from me. This was to be applied not only to the physical, but to the emotional, mental and psychological also. The minute anyone FEELS like they are being abused in any fashion, it's time to step back and re-evaluate the relationship. Live well Alex

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