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Resolve - 4/18/2007 10:25:00 AM

caitlyn

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This wave of new amazingly brutal attacks in Iraq - public building, open markets, even a hospital - do they strengthen your resolve, or weaken it?

It doesn't matter what side of this issue you are on ... I'm more interest in how this influences your resolve towards you position.

Even if you feel this whole war in Iraq is nothing more than a way to destroy the other political party (I would stand in awe of anyone brave and honest enough to admit this), does it shake your feelings one way or the other?

I'm hoping we can stay off the "Bush lied, America sucks, who is a monkey", points of posting (possibly hopeless), and really focus on how these events shape and shake you.

Post #: 1

RE: Resolve - 4/18/2007 10:38:59 AM

popeye1250

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Well, it tells me that it's an Occupation and not a "War."
The same thing would be happening in the U.S. if we were invaded but more by gunfire than by bomb.
Misplaced Bombs are too indiscriminate to use as weapons when you only want to kill your enemy or an occupying force.
Someone in another thread said that there are 70 million guns in the U.S.
There's more like 400 million.
My resolve? I think Bush was right when he said; "Mission accomplished."
We crushed their "Army", Saddam is gone, mission accomplished!
This is just another example that "nation building" never works.
Since we accomplished the mission I don't understand why we're still there.
Exon/Mobil Corp probably " understands."
We can build ten hospitals there and they can blow them up in ten minutes.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 2

RE: Resolve - 4/18/2007 10:47:52 AM

seeksfemslave

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What "gets up my nose" is the way the situation in Iraq is reported in the UK media.

Every atrocity is described as being part of the War when as Popeye says the War involving US/UK troops all but ended about 2 or 3 years ago. Is it reported the same in the US ?

What I see/hear hasn't change my view, I would like to see/hear more accurate reporting.
How it will be resolved, I dont know.
A strong Central Iraqui govnt with effective security forces I suppose.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 3

RE: Resolve - 4/18/2007 10:50:50 AM

MellowSir

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The Iraqis can't get along well enough with each other to have a stable gov. Not a democratic one. They are ruled by religion not law.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 4

RE: Resolve - 4/18/2007 10:56:55 AM

lostsoulskitten

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Last I heard it was up to almost 200 dead in this latest bombing campaign.

Personally, I think we should never have gone into Iraq in the first place. Getting out of there will be very difficult. But given most of these tribes have been fighting and killing each other for hundreds of years, I do not see it getting any better. Right now we are nothing more than a target and a police force. Whether we stay or get out really is not going to improve the situation at this stage. You cannot undo hundreds of years of fighting between factions in a few years or decades.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 5

RE: Resolve - 4/18/2007 10:57:13 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

This wave of new amazingly brutal attacks in Iraq - public building, open markets, even a hospital - do they strengthen your resolve, or weaken it?
caitlyn,
Yes it strengthens my resolve; my resolve to get US troops out of the area so the locals can get on with their millennium long ongoing effort to kill each other.

I have one concern.

A little noted "success" that I associate with the ongoing war in Iraq is the fact that since 9/11 there has not been one successful terrorist attack on US soil. If someone wanted to bet me on 9/12 that in over 5 years that would be the case I would not have taken that wager. I don't rationalize or justify that our troops should remain in harms way as be killed as a sacrifice to pay for that fact. Whenever or however the withdraw happens our enemies will be able to reallocate the resources, currently in use in Iraq, to bring this same battle to our home.

My concern in on two fronts. The obvious one being the death and destruction of the USA and its citizens. However, inclusive of consideration of a nuclear or 'dirty bomb' exploding in the USA; the response most likely will be world altering and make the Iraqi war seem like a Civil War reenactment. Regardless of the political party in power, the huge majority of US citizens will demand and most likely get, a full retaliation. I fear it won't be surgical, it won't be limited, and it will spread well outside the Middle East.

I hope your friend is well!

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 6

RE: Resolve - 4/18/2007 11:03:12 AM

cloudboy

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I'm with Bush. We must stay resolved to preserve the sanctity of the Green Zone while all normal and Western oriented IRAQIs flee the country seeking safety elsewhere.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 7

RE: Resolve - 4/18/2007 11:11:58 AM

lostsoulskitten

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Have to remember too. We have been the evil empire for many decades since the second world war. We are the infidels in the arab world. We did bring a lot of that reputation on ourselves in the early days trying to stop communism from expanding.

Do I think the war is helping keep the homefront safe? It tightened a lot of security yes. But still America is a HUGE target. Do I think there will be more attacks against us? Unfortunately, yes. We need to work on our reputation with the rest of the world and need to concentrate on our own country rather than trying to solve everyone else's problems.

Case in point. Somolia. Everyone was screaming for action from us to do something with the poor starving kids over there among other things. So, we go in and try to help. It got many of our soldiers killed for a humanitarian mission trying to protect the food convoys. It did nothing to solve the issues besides giving the somolian tribal leaders a big fat bullseye to kill americans.

In a way we are trapped in Iraq now. We should have never gone in, and now we cannot get out of there. How do you win a battle with people who have one goal in mind in killing as many Americans as they can?

< Message edited by lostsoulskitten -- 4/18/2007 11:14:48 AM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 8

RE: Resolve - 4/18/2007 11:19:17 AM

MellowSir

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Hey here's an idea, let all the foreign countries take care of themselves. Oh that's right, they can't do that.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 9

RE: Resolve - 4/18/2007 11:23:08 AM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lostsoulskitten

Last I heard it was up to almost 200 dead in this latest bombing campaign.

Personally, I think we should never have gone into Iraq in the first place. Getting out of there will be very difficult. But given most of these tribes have been fighting and killing each other for hundreds of years, I do not see it getting any better. Right now we are nothing more than a target and a police force. Whether we stay or get out really is not going to improve the situation at this stage. You cannot undo hundreds of years of fighting between factions in a few years or decades.

Not so, it's easy to get out.
"Here's the keys to your new country, enjoy."
Then you just leave.
(We) can't be doing the fighting for the Iraqi's freedom, THEY need to do it!
Washington keeps telling us that "we need another 6 months, year, two years" etc.
Just leave!
Why should it cost U.S. Taxpayers $500b?
Those big oil companies had better be planning on reimbursing the Taxpayers!

(in reply to lostsoulskitten)

Post #: 10

RE: Resolve - 4/18/2007 11:28:13 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

My resolve? I think Bush was right when he said; "Mission accomplished."
We crushed their "Army", Saddam is gone, mission accomplished!

The invasion has accomplished nothing. There wasn't a terrorist problem in Iraq, they didn't have WMD and they weren't a threat to the west. This invasion was on the neocon list before 9/11 so it didn't even have anything to do with it. People say it wasn't about oil but can't say what it was about. It certainly wasn't about WMD or terrorism.

As for crushing the Iraqi army, well was there ever a danger of that not happening? US state of the art technology against obsolete Soviet technology was always going to be a no contest. The problem was always going to be what comes after and chaos was predicted. If the US cut and run then all they would have succeeded in doing is defeating a third rate army, allowing thousands of innocent civilians to be killed and running away from insurgents, resistance fighters and terrorists and left one of their so called 'axis of evil' in a stronger postion than ever. All was entirely predictable. It will also be seen around the world as a defeat for the US because the US would be leaving with its middle east policy in tatters with absolutely no gains. If creating failed states is US policy I guess the US has succeeded.

It seems to me the US is between a rock and a hard place and all of its own making. The only way for the US to be taken seriously is to find a little resolve, otherwise the US will be seen the same as the Russians were when they scuttled out of Afghanistan with their tails between their legs.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 11

RE: Resolve - 4/18/2007 11:34:50 AM

lostsoulskitten

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I agree completely. It should be their fight really. But in Bush's eyes, to simply leave sends a message that they can kill our soldiers, we tuck tail and run, and sends a message that does more harm than good.

But at the same time, you cannot help a country that does not seem to want help. It is one of these double edged swords. If we pull out and give in to the suicide bombings and all, then they win. They come back over here and start killing Americans on the homefront. If we stay, try to help them establish a government, we still get killed.

I said 4 years ago we had no business going into Iraq in the first place. And we still have two major threats to still deal with. Iran's devotion to create nuclear missles, and North Korea's. We cannot keep being peacekeepers and the world's police force. We cannot keep taking a stance of bottlefeedign the rest of the world and changing their diapers when they have accidents. We cannot keep playing the mean old parent taking the toys away from a two year old and babying them as they throw a tantrum. One of these days the world has to grow up and learn to deal with their own problems.

< Message edited by lostsoulskitten -- 4/18/2007 11:40:06 AM >

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 12

RE: Resolve - 4/18/2007 11:37:26 AM

caitlyn

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I'm all over the board on this one. After the attack on the Parlament building, I had feelings similar to yours. The last wave of attacks - on a market ... on a hospital - has left me with a feeling that we can't leave people like this in control. This issue is finding me fickle.

Another take, is getting inside of the minds of the people doing these things. What is their aim? Certainly not to get the United States out. Hell, they could put away the bombs, send everyone flowers, and we would probably be out in three months. At the same time, they must realize that as long as this current administration is in power, trying to break anyone's resolve will only foster the "Sherman's March Effect." Is it mindless killing ... do they really think they are having a civil war, with us over there? Is this all the doing, of Iranian agents? How about Israeli agents?
(extreme example, used to illustrate the broader point)

Not to mention the resolve of the people over there. We hear so little from them. My friend tells me that the men in his Battalion, pretty much decided to never speak with the press, under any circumstances. Not an order, or a edict ... just a few thousand guys, deciding the press is FOS and choosing to completely ignore them. I guess we, none of us, really know how they feel.

I haven't gotten an email in three weeks ... which is a little disconcerting, quite frankly.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 13

RE: Resolve - 4/18/2007 11:39:41 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lostsoulskitten

One of these dyas the world has to grow up and learn to deal with their own problems.

This is a US problem and a British one, they created the problem in the first place. This was never a world problem, it was a regional problem made worse by the invasion.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to lostsoulskitten)

Post #: 14

RE: Resolve - 4/18/2007 11:42:28 AM

caitlyn

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General response ...

I would ask politely, that we please keep this on the topic at hand, and not turn this into the seven-hundreth, "who lied, WMD, why are we there, Bush is an idiot, Pelosi is a traitor, American are imperialist dogs, etc ... ", thread.

I have no way of enforcing this, but did ask nicely. I'm sure you can find a thread to express those views. There are about ten for every fucking member on Collarme.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 15

RE: Resolve - 4/18/2007 12:08:15 PM

meatcleaver

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Resolve is a bad alternative but the only alternative to an even worse alternative, cutting and running. If someone can see a way of leaving Iraq that doesn't condemn millions of innocent Iraqis to be maimed and slaughtered I would like to hear it. Those that made the mess should be moral bound to clearing it up.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 16

RE: Resolve - 4/18/2007 12:18:26 PM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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Caitlyn, what is there to "WIN" over there?
For the U.S. I mean?
As a citizen and Taxpayer there is nothing for "me" to "win" over in Iraq. All that's happening is that my Taxdollars are being taken.
I'd much rather see my Troops bombing the living hell out of Western Pakistan where Bin Laden is.
I don't want to pay my taxes to be the "world's policeman" anymore!
I thought we wearn't going to do that anymore.
We can't afford that or all this foolish "foreign aid" anymore, this country is BROKE financially.
Call me "selfish" if you want but I really don't care about foreign countries. At least not when if comes to my finances or taxdollars.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 17

RE: Resolve - 4/18/2007 12:34:23 PM

caitlyn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Caitlyn, what is there to "WIN" over there?
For the U.S. I mean?

I think we have been over these points many times, and honestly, I don't want to see that become the focus of this thread.

I'm more interested in if the events have changed your views or your resolve ... no matter what those views are.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 18

RE: Resolve - 4/18/2007 12:35:50 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Bush did lie

Our government sucks

And calling evil people monkeys tends to denigrate the natural world.

What is happening in Iraq was expected and predicted before we ever invaded that country. Bush's own father knew this and that was why he did not invade Iraq when they exited Kuwait. To lost sight of the predictability of what has occurred, our lack of ability to shore up our own invasion with an adequate occupation force, and the wherewithall to continue this war that threatens to completely tear down our country economically to the extent it might take generations to recover, all lead me to believe that my original position was the correct one... this war was indeed a very bad idea.

I always knew the Iraqi people would pay dearly for powers they could never control spiraling out of control, and I suspected we would also... just not as of yet in the same sort of way. Since I am starting to think that we instigated World War III with the hubris of invading Iraq, I can only see more pain and suffering from my vantage point.

I will say that over the last few months I have been paying less attention to this for spiritual reasons. I began to see that allowing myself to be brought down by what has occurred was to deprive myself of the happiness that I think that all peoples richly deserve. I used to think I had the blood of many on my hands because my government is ran by a bunch of evil cretins, but now I see that it really has no relation to me other than the victimization of my son's generation and my grandchildren that will pay for this mess. If I stay a victim or I become empowered is all up to me, and I chose empowerment and love of life to focusing on the pain that I did not cause... The Bush junta did that.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 19

RE: Resolve - 4/18/2007 12:42:11 PM

popeye1250

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Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Caitlyn, what is there to "WIN" over there?
For the U.S. I mean?

I think we have been over these points many times, and honestly, I don't want to see that become the focus of this thread.

I'm more interested in if the events have changed your views or your resolve ... no matter what those views are.

Yes, it's made me "resolve" to call my senators and congressman to not get us involved with foreign countries.
I'm "resolved" to make my government a lot less interventionist.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 20

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