RE: Anti sub drop? (Full Version)

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darkinshadows -> RE: Anti sub drop? (4/20/2007 4:33:27 AM)

I know twice, but look at it this way.
 
People with high amounts of prolactin in their body, have there dopamine challenged.  Being hard isn't a factor, but a mood swing out of character is.  So, if Scooters reaction is to laugh, it could be his body is simply confused.  You say he feels bad when you explain and then does it again.  Dopamine is responsible for the feel good factor your body gets - for example a trigger can be chocolate or coffee, and people gain gratification from consuming these.  In the same way the dopamine may be 'confused' into causing Scooter to laugh.  I am not saying I'm correct, but if he is a wonderful man in every other way in your relationship and this only occurs recently and during a scene, then it could be part of it.
 
In the same breath, your levels are being constantly compromised and switched around causing you to feel depressed, anxious, confused and unloved.  It could be causing the opposite in you and not rewarding, where it did before.
 
Peace
 
(edit to add - I just read what I wrote and I am not sure if it makes a correct statement.  It's the lack of dopamine thats causing the confusing to your brain.... not the dopamine itself, due to the prolactin that is released.  Dopamine is a pleasure giver above all else... and to have it dulled can cause confusion between what is pleasure/pain.  Geez I hope I am making some kind of sense)



catize -> RE: Anti sub drop? (4/20/2007 4:43:39 AM)

It isn’t weird at all, it is bio-chemistry.
Everyone we encounter, everything we experience can alter the chemical balance in our brains; sometimes it is a good change, other times it is not.  Sudden trauma or loss can ‘drop’ us; so can less traumatic but repeated events. 
If he knows what he does triggers depression for you then I cannot begin to understand why he would persist.  It seems to me that he is in a self destructive pattern and is taking you along for the fall. 
I believe what you are feeling and thinking are normal self preservation thoughts and feelings.  If you can, set aside your heart and listen to your gut.  Read what you have written in this thread as if the words were written by someone else; what would you tell that person? 



Celeste43 -> RE: Anti sub drop? (4/20/2007 4:49:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twicehappy2x

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

It doesn't sound like you've been speaking plain enough to him.

If he continues doing this for the next year, where do you think you will be then? Do you think you will withdraw from him totally? Stop responding to him, stop caring about him, stop believing that he cares for you? Because if you're on the road to any of that, then you are on the road out of the relationship. It seems obvious that he doesn't know what he's doing here or just doesn't care. Ask him point blank which it is and then make your decision from that.


I am fairly sure i explained it thoroughly to him. I do not want to nag him, i do not want to feel like he is being put into a corner where he has to do something. I want him to want to do something. If he does not want to do anything then at least stop poking.
 
I have rationalized this, attempted to come up with reasons this cycle keeps getting repeated, anymore though i just want it to stop.
 
And you are right, i have had to keep my distance off and on for a long time now but before i always got back to normal. This time it seems like it has been going on forever, and i really do not understand why. He says he loves me, i believe him but more and more i am questioning this. How can he love me and not see what is happening here?
 
I can't find normal anymore and i question daily if he cares at all. And yes, it is already destroying the relationship, yet i have kept looking for answers to this. Problem is i don't trust myself anymore either.


The solution is to say to him that this is a hard limit from now on. Either that or walk, his choice. Because it is abusive if he sees what he's doing to you and doesn't care. He needs to learn healthy boundaries in his sadism, unfortunately he hasn't so you need to put this boundary, or limit, there for him.

I had to hard limit denial early on because my response to it was to stop sleeping. And sleep deprivation is not safe. It increases majorly risk of car accidents and makes me a cranky, unhappy person to be with.



Twicehappy2x -> RE: Anti sub drop? (4/20/2007 4:54:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

The solution is to say to him that this is a hard limit from now on. Either that or walk, his choice. I had to hard limit denial early on because my response to it was to stop sleeping. And sleep deprivation is not safe. It increases majorly risk of car accidents and makes me a cranky, unhappy person to be with.


I've thought about doing both, the problem is he is so perfect for me and to me.  I am so in love i find it incomprehensible to lose him but i know that is what is coming.
 
As for sleep, my RA already makes it hard to sleep, now i am awake for days then fall into a restless sleep of the dead for hours.



Devilslilsister -> RE: Anti sub drop? (4/20/2007 5:53:28 AM)

i'm glad you got some answers.  This is really very confusing!!  Scooter is an awesome guy, heck you all are.  Sooooooo strange.  Obviously you're in a negative mind frame from all of this, so thinking positively about it is hard.  Try to though.  There has got to be some GOOD reason that Scooter would do this.  Teaching?  Training?  New form of s/m?  Have you spoke to Jewel about this?  Whats she say?  Try and remember that there are soooo many good things about you all that all these negative feelings are just a symptom.  Like, they're real because they're there.. but they are not real.  Not sure if that make sense?  Try and hold tough, patience, it cant be too much longer.  Buckle down.. try reading.. not sure if that would do you any good.  Doesnt do me any good!  Ya know, i recently suggested to Master that we "open" our relationship and he let me go take care of my needs elsewhere..... which of course totally didnt fly, but maybe it will with Scooter? 

dark - thanks for adding more to that quote.  i was sooo hoping that you would stop by and post  = )



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Anti sub drop? (4/20/2007 7:08:53 AM)

Wellyou could have him just read this thread then.

Scooter- your slave reacts very badly to the way you treat her.  This is not due to her lack of trying to process or anything within her control, it is simply how her body works things out.  You either need to spend a few months/years retraining her body's chemicals to change (and even there, you only have so much room to stretch), or change the way you approach your "jumps" onto her.  Otherwise, you will be fostering a miserable and confused slave.  Her dependence upon you in this matter is ultimate- you hold the cards.  She will accept your treatement, but you must accept the consequences.



MaamJay -> RE: Anti sub drop? (4/20/2007 7:42:54 AM)

Following LA's lead ... Scooter, I would love to know WHY You are taking this approach to twicehappy. What are You hoping this training will accomplish? Do You think it's working to achieve Your aims? Stand back a pace or two and reassess ... are the possible desired outcomes being outweighed by (perhaps) unintended negative ones? Or are You doing this "simply because You can"? I hope You are reading this thread VERY thoughtfully. I thought catize made a good point when she suggested twicehappy read her words as if they were someone else's and think what she'd advise the person. Perhaps Scooter, You could also think about what You would advise if another sub confided in You that she had this problem with her Dominant.

I don't want to be judgemental here, but I know My aim in training a sub (and Master's aim in training my sub/slave side) is to enhance, to encourage, to build. Even though the training may work to tear down part (eg Master training me out of rocking side to side while speaking to people!), it is always done as part of a rebuilding process which is nurturing. And My years as a teacher have shown Me I get far better results when I make the REASONS why I am doing something in a particular way explicit to those I am doing things to. I really hope Scooter can appreciate the desperation that has brought twicehappy to the point of posting here and the thoughtful responses that this thread has yielded. I hope things can be worked out to the good of both!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]



Mercnbeth -> RE: Anti sub drop? (4/20/2007 8:12:22 AM)

If, for some reason, Master found a way, through His physical use of her to make this slave feel this:

quote:

mentally confused, nauseous, shaking, in tears, ...feel abandoned and this last time so fucking depressed I do not know what to do.

 
and
 
quote:

I have talked to him about it, he did this for an extended period of time before and I was very plain about the effects it has on me.
 
this slave would conclude that He is doing as He pleases...just because He is well aware of this slave's mental/emotional state about a particular thing, doesn't mean this slave expects Him to change His behavior...especially if He enjoys it.


 



Aswad -> RE: Anti sub drop? (4/20/2007 8:12:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twicehappy2x

I only made this post because it is to the point where i can't deal with it any more. I feel like i am on a roller coaster ride all the time.


Okay, that's not good, as others have pointed out. Your mental health is not being handled in a responsible manner, which may or may not be objectionable to you, and may or may not be in conflict with whatever terms you have agreed to.

quote:

I am in tears immediately and have gotten to the point where i stay depressed.


That's more than a sub drop. Long-term depression is a pretty serious problem.

quote:

No depression does not run in my family, nor do i normally get depressed about much.


In that case, the fact that you're starting to get this problem now indicates a lot about how severe the emotional abuse involved is.

quote:

I think it is the up and down chemical soup combined with my fear of what keeps happening to me that is keeping me depressed. I want him but it just is not safe anymore to let myself want him, yet when he is close i cannot stop it.


I'd recommend seeing a doctor, and having him talk to your Dom. If this doesn't work, consider leaving, at least for a while. You have a right to protect yourself.

If you intend to stay and take it, I'd recommend talking to the doctor about getting some therapy, as well as drug treatment to prevent it from getting worse. Emsam would be a good bet, if your insurance covers it. Alternatively Manerix. MAOIs tend to be fairly robust, and those two don't have the usual dietary restrictions. Nor do they have significant sexual side-effects, usually.



Aswad -> RE: Anti sub drop? (4/20/2007 8:20:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

Me? I'd rather end it early enough that I won't be left depressed afterwards. Because eventually this situationally caused depression will turn into the real thing, if it hasn't already. And one side effect of antidepressants is decreased libido.


Decreased libido is a side-effect of serotonergic antidepressants, like SSRIs. And, really, who cares about decreased libido?

Seriously, major depression entails ~15% chance of successfully committing suicide and 100% chance of basically zero quality of life for anywhere from a couple of months to the rest of your life.

And there are other, more long-term, side-effects to the meds I'd worry more about, like osteoporosis, cognitive and memory impairments, etc... That's for the same ones that adversely affect libido.



ownedgirlie -> RE: Anti sub drop? (4/20/2007 8:29:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

this slave would conclude that He is doing as He pleases...just because He is well aware of this slave's mental/emotional state about a particular thing, doesn't mean this slave expects Him to change His behavior...especially if He enjoys it.




I was beginning to write something like this, since in my particular case, my Master is not going to change what he enjoys doing with me and it is up to me to figure out how to deal with that.  I've felt the way you are describing, Twice, and figuring out a way to cope and not feel that way anymore is not easy by any means.  What was left out of the above quote, was that coping with feeling confused, nauseous, in tears, etc., requires effort that feels impossible at times.  When I talk about working in my slavery, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about - "How do I work with these feelings I am left with?  How can I change to better serve him as he wishes, even if he expects some very unconventional service from me?"

Until one experiences this as you now are, one can truly not say they will have no problem with it.  One can also not say he/she will never be faced with such an effort. 

Twice, if it helps, when I feel this way I journal, meditate on him, work out, make myself busy, yet always tell him how I am feeling.  And, most importantly (and something I often forget), I ask him for help.  I do not envy you this.  I know what it feels like to avoid those acme boxes, lol.  In my case I found it best to learn to embrace them.  This avoids me the conflict of putting my feelings above his.  I personally do not think leaving an otherwise great relationship is the answer.  Nor do I think telling my  Master he needs to change for me is the answer.  The answer lies in learning how to deal with his newfound enjoyable use of you. When you can do that, your new found strength will elevate you.

I do wish you the best.



Aswad -> RE: Anti sub drop? (4/20/2007 8:52:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

One of the chemicals released during orgasm and sexual stimulation is prolactin.  Prolactin is the hormone that stimulates lactation. The major effect of increased prolactin is a decrease in normal levels of sex hormones — estrogen in women and testosterone in men – and the effects of sudden changes to those two hormones are pretty wide known.
quote:



Not entirely correct.

Yes, prolactin reduces oestrogen synthesis in the ovaries. But oestrogen increases the prolactin release, so this system is in homeostatic balance. You won't throw it off a lot without noticing tons of other effects, like amenorrhea.

The main effect of prolactin, in a mental health perspective, is decreasing testosterone in both genders. Remember that testosterone is not an exclusively male sex hormone, but also a very important one for women as well. Further, prolactin has a weak inhibiting effect on central dopamine levels.

Also, AFAIK, prolactin is released during orgasm, not arousal. If it were released to any significant extent during arousal, you would be unable to achieve orgasm.

I'd point at PEA (phenylethylamine) as a more likely culprit. Its levels are raised during arousal, and it works pretty much the same as amphetamine, but specific to the dopamine receptors, and with a halflife of 0.5-15 minutes, it gives the same come-down as amphetamines do. Selegiline/Emsam and unselective MAOIs extend this half-life quite significantly.

A quick point about PEA is that it causes pupil dilation, so that might be a good non-invasive test.

quote:


This can cause tiredness and bouts of depression. It represses dopamine which is important to the whole survival instinct. Ie - it fucks with the whole eat/sleep/reproduce/flight or fight responses causing confusion and depression or disinterest.
quote:



Reduced dopamine levels will cause impaired motivation, emotional flatness, etc., and is involved in certain subtypes of depression, specifically those responsive to MAOIs, NARIs and DARIs. Eating and sleeping are mediated by other systems. Fight-or-flight is fairly exclusively mediated by norepinephrine. Confusion is a strong sign of excessive dopamine levels, while complete brain fog is a weak sign of low dopamine. Depression and disinterest, however, are correct. No idea about reproduction, though I expect it to be positively correlated with dopamine and oxytocin, as well as the ovulatory cycle.

quote:

Its suggested that the sudden flooding of different hormones and chemicals can send the brain into confusion.
quote:



Perhaps. Said confusion is usually called a "high", however, which only corresponds to the positive part of her experience, but that's another matter. Note also that our brains are meant for this kind of flooding. They just aren't meant to shut down so quickly.

More relevant is the pulsatile stimulation of dopaminergic receptors, potentially causing adaptive changes. A partial agonist might solve that problem, but it's not a solution to the situation itself.

quote:

In men, if they have high releases of prolactin, it can cause them to be subdued and back off (which Scooter may be doing - so it isnt always a 'blame the D-type' matter because he can't control the medical side in this instance) or even fall asleep immediately after orgasm.
quote:



The main effect of prolactin on men is that it causes an orgasm refractory period, although the fatigue might be related. Even a short burst of prolactin will affect your testosterone, although most men won't see long-term changes from that. Overbalancing this system, however, can put it into negative feedback. That takes a lot, though.

quote:

In a stable relationship that has had a routine, the dopamine adapts and learns when to ‘reward’ your own particular system  - and if that doesn’t happen or suddenly changes it takes time for the release of the dopamine to react.
quote:



Actually, stable relationships are more about oxytocin, which mediates trust and bonding.

Dopamine fires whenever there are major changes in the neurohormonal balance or neurotransmitter activity, which focuses attention on the situation that caused it. An evolutionary adaptation for imprinting important situations. It has nothing to do with reward in itself, as it fires strongly during negative stimuli as well. Rather, it has to do with the impact and the learning of responses (habituation and motivation), etc.

Firing speed doesn't usually change, IIRC, nor would it significantly matter, as clearly demonstrated by the myriad drugs that affect the time-domain of the impulse.

quote:

So it means (in twice case on a hormone level) your body falls into a state of confusion – hence the whole up and down of sub space or drop.  One minute you can be laughing, the next in tears – or in tears when you are laughing – or enjoying sensations or hating them.  Because the body isn’t sure whether to reward or run away.
quote:



What she is describing, is a sustained impact on her mood, and a withdrawal from her Dom.

This is not consistent with sub drop.

It's consistent with trauma.

Sorry for such a long-winded explanation.



darkinshadows -> RE: Anti sub drop? (4/20/2007 9:32:43 AM)

Excuse me not putting endless quotes - if I did the post would end up looking like a single tower...yikes.
I am not a doctor, I only get my info from one.
Yes, I am aware that dopamine isnt the only thing to mention - I didnt get into oxytocin, because the thread is evolving too quickly and I felt that it would only confuse the issue.
 
quote:

What she is describing, is a sustained impact on her mood, and a withdrawal from her Dom.
This is not consistent with sub drop.
It's consistent with trauma.
Sorry for such a long-winded explanation.

 
Subdrop occurs for all types of reasons.  I never infered it was the only reason, just a possible one. (since D asked me about a previous thread).  The pupil dilation is a good indicator - but then that could again mean any number of things.  Yikes it gets complicated.  The main thing is there is a problem here between twice and Scooter and I really hope Scooter sees these replies and I  that everything can be resolved or moved forward in whatever direction needs to be taken.
 
Peace and Rapture



outlier -> RE: Anti sub drop? (4/20/2007 10:58:29 AM)

Twicehappy2x,

I am so sorry to read this thread. 

quote:

And you are right, i have had to keep my distance off and on for a long time now but before i always got back to normal. This time it seems like it has been going on forever, and i really do not understand why. He says he loves me, i believe him but more and more i am questioning this. How can he love me and not see what is happening here?
 
I can't find normal anymore and i question daily if he cares at all. And yes, it is already destroying the relationship, yet i have kept looking for answers to this. Problem is i don't trust myself anymore either.


I do not believe that drugs are the answer to this problem.  You say he is
loving but his behaviour is not loving.  I can only tell you what somebody
I knew who I had a great deal of respect for told me about people.
     
       "Listen to what they say.  But believe what they do."

Heinlein very famously said: "Love is when another person's happiness
is essential to your own."  Scooter is not loving you.  Either he has to wake
up and change or you have to get out to protect yourself.  Make this clear
to him and then let his ACTIONS be your guide. 

Stay in touch,
Outlier



Aswad -> RE: Anti sub drop? (4/20/2007 11:05:10 AM)

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows
People with high amounts of prolactin in their body, have there dopamine challenged.
Yes, high levels of prolactin can cause a drop in dopamine. But it also causes a serious drop in testosterone. If the levels are sufficient to cause the kind of behaviour he's experiencing, a negative feedback loop will have been established, causing a loss of homeostasis. This leads to progressive worsening, with sufficient loss of testosterone to induce serious loss of libido, loss of energy levels, and so forth, as well as a long-term loss of muscle mass.
Being hard isn't a factor, but a mood swing out of character is.  So, if Scooters reaction is to laugh, it could be his body is simply confused.
The out-of-character mood swing can certainly be a factor in her response. And it is also indicative that something is up with him. Normally, low dopamine gives a flattening of emotion, not mood swings.
You say he feels bad when you explain and then does it again.
Again, this is indicative that he either doesn't really feel bad, and does it intentionally, or that he has a serious problem with impulse control. Either way, it is incompatible with being a responsible Dom.
Dopamine is responsible for the feel good factor your body gets - for example a trigger can be chocolate or coffee, and people gain gratification from consuming these.
No, dopamine is not a universal "feel good" neurotransmitter, and chocolate/coffee gratification is an entirely seperate topic that would be too extensive to cover here.
In the same way the dopamine may be 'confused' into causing Scooter to laugh.
Arousal can certainly increase dopamine through an increase in PEA, but if it gets to the level where it causes this kind of behaviour, that's both very uncommon and a big problem. In fact, raising the dopamine levels sufficiently will cause what is known as a brief reactive psychosis.
In the same breath, your levels are being constantly compromised and switched around causing you to feel depressed, anxious, confused and unloved.  It could be causing the opposite in you and not rewarding, where it did before.
 A drop in dopamine due to the short half-life of PEA can cause an amphetamine-like "crash", which is a plausible explanation for sub drop. It takes a lot for it to develop into a lasting depression, however.

Either way, he needs to deal with it. If he cannot treat her responsibly, but wishes to do so, he needs to stop playing with her until he's got it under control. If he doesn't want to treat her responsibly, or doesn't deal with it, then it's up to her to get out, before he gets to a point where he might seriously damage her.
(edit to add - I just read what I wrote and I am not sure if it makes a correct statement.  It's the lack of dopamine thats causing the confusing to your brain.... not the dopamine itself, due to the prolactin that is released.  Dopamine is a pleasure giver above all else... and to have it dulled can cause confusion between what is pleasure/pain.  Geez I hope I am making some kind of sense)
You're making sense. But you're also wrong. Basing your argument on an incorrect understanding of neurobiology/neurochemistry is dangerous. It seems to me like you are trying to make excuses for his behaviour, or validate it, and that is a dangerously wrong conclusion IMO.

Dopamine is not the main pleasure-giver. You'd have to look to nitrous oxide, glutamate, oxytocin, endorphins and acetylcholine for that, I think. Pleasure is not a simple response, mediated by a single neurotransmitter or neurohormone.

And prolactin is released in massive amounts during orgasm. If it were the cause of her distress, she would feel much worse from having an orgasm, whether self-induced or not.

No offense, just pointing out some factual inaccuracies and offering my take on things.



Aswad -> RE: Anti sub drop? (4/20/2007 11:10:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twicehappy2x

I've thought about doing both, the problem is he is so perfect for me and to me.  I am so in love i find it incomprehensible to lose him but i know that is what is coming.


How long have you been with him? The kind of love you're describing would explain how your motor gets revving that quickly, as it is associated with a sustained PEA-high that some researchers have pointed out to be sufficient to sustain a mild psychosis, where one doesn't think clearly about the situation and deludes oneself about the facts that are unpleasant.

You should take some time apart to evaluate it, IMO. Just a friendly suggestion.

quote:

As for sleep, my RA already makes it hard to sleep, now i am awake for days then fall into a restless sleep of the dead for hours.


What is "RA" ?

Sleep issues like this can be an alternative explanation for your problem, and should be dealt with promptly by a doctor, through a change in routines (so-called "sleep hygiene") and possibly short-term medication, whether melatonin, Rozarem, benzos or barbs.

The only thing you really need to know about long term sleep disturbances is: if your sleep is screwed up, everything else either is, or will be.



Aswad -> RE: Anti sub drop? (4/20/2007 11:16:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I was beginning to write something like this, since in my particular case, my Master is not going to change what he enjoys doing with me and it is up to me to figure out how to deal with that.


I have no problem with a Master doing whatever he likes with his slave.

But we also have to realize that a slave is human. While we can order them to hover in mid-air, survive being hit by a train, or deal with depression, the laws of physics will not allow them to, and it would be deluding ourselves to expect them to succeed.

If your Master wants to treat you in a way that makes you depressed and unable to cope, he needs to expect you to collapse, or get you on medication that will counteract the effects of what he does. Anything else isn't just doing what you like, which I'm okay with, it's denying reality.

For all I care, a Master can pump his slave full of antipsychotics and benzos until she's nothing but a human robot, but he cannot expect her to function in a way that her brain will not permit.

Or, rather, he can expect anything, of course, but it'd be like expecting the moon to start orbiting backwards because you're unhappy about the tides. There are words to describe that kind of mental wiring, and I doubt I need to name them here.



Aswad -> RE: Anti sub drop? (4/20/2007 11:23:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Excuse me not putting endless quotes - if I did the post would end up looking like a single tower...yikes.

That was a fuck-up on my part, and I spotted it too late to edit it. Your text being italic and centered, I copy-pasted some normal text to get a break where I could write my reply.

If any of the admins could change every other quote to /quote, I'd be eternally grateful.

quote:

I am not a doctor, I only get my info from one.


I'm not a doctor either, though I've verified most of my info with a professor of biological psychiatry. Authority isn't the issue, and doctors don't usually have a very detailed understanding outside their field. This is a hazard of practice, as you don't get enough time to keep abreast of the new research.

quote:

Yes, I am aware that dopamine isnt the only thing to mention - I didnt get into oxytocin, because the thread is evolving too quickly and I felt that it would only confuse the issue.


Quite, and I realize my replies may be straying far afield.

The executive summary is: your analysis of the chemistry involved is incorrect, IMO, and he shouldn't act this way.
  
quote:

Subdrop occurs for all types of reasons.  I never infered it was the only reason, just a possible one. (since D asked me about a previous thread).


The point was that this isn't sub drop, per se. It's trauma.

quote:

The pupil dilation is a good indicator - but then that could again mean any number of things.  Yikes it gets complicated.


Yes, hence I suggest we stay away from a chemical analysis, and stick to the simple facts: he's treating her in a way that is incompatible with her sustained mental health, and unless he wants her mental health to deteriorate, he needs to deal with it.




Elorin -> RE: Anti sub drop? (4/20/2007 11:31:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twicehappy2x
Here is the problem, lately he takes me to the screaming point then drops me cold, no release. Ok, a few weeks of this can be fun, truthfully I love it, but it has been going on since February.

I'd call this tease and denial.

quote:

Yet this has gotten to the point that when he drops me cold, I am mentally confused, nauseous, shaking, in tears, I feel abandoned and this last time so fucking depressed I do not know what to do. I am not somebody that gets depressed either. It gives me all sorts of strange worries I never have.
What would happen to me if this happened for 2 months is I would wonder: Why is he doing this? Does he really want me or does he just want to amuse himself with how easily I'm turned on? Why would this amuse him, is is because he doesn't want me anymore, but I'm so pathetic I still want him? What is wrong with this picture? Is it me? Is there something wrong with ME?

Those are all thoughts I could see myself having if I had prolonged tease and denial, happening much more often than fulfilling sexual or S&M encounters. 

quote:

What I want to know is am I experiencing some weird form of sub drop? Can you experience sub drop because your body instantly revs up for “Master” and then boom, nothing?[/ quote]
My guess is that in addition to the chemical reactions others have described in this thread, you are experiencing an emotional conditioning that says "If he turns me on he has no intentions of fulfilling me or giving me an orgasm. That hurts, and I don't like it. To prevent the hurt, I am going to withdraw and try not to be so turned on." And it sounds like Scooter doesn't like the withdrawal, and either doesn't realize or doesn't care that he is the one causing it.

From a later post:

quote:

I've thought about doing both [setting a hard limit or walking away], the problem is he is so perfect for me and to me.  I am so in love i find it incomprehensible to lose him but i know that is what is coming.

Setting hard limits do not mean you are not in love, they do not mean you have to lose someone. I realize that at least two slaves in this thread posted that just because they don't like something doesn't mean they expect master to change it. While that is a great relationship dynamic for them, it would ~never~ work for me. A good relationship is one where both people have their needs met. Right now, you NEED to stop tease and denial. It is fucking you up mentally, emotionally, and from what you said about lack of sleep, physically as well. Since you mention an RA (resident assistant, I'm assuming, or dorm "supervisor" basically) I'm assuming you are at college, which means his behavior is not only fucking with you, it's fucking with your education.
You have the right to say "I have needs. If this relationship is not meeting my needs, then the relationship needs to change or I need to end it." That is what limits are for. They are for making clear what you can and cannot handle.

You said i cannot believe my gentle natured Scooter would wreak such havoc on purpose. Sweetie, I hope you are right. I also hope that he is not doing it from apathy, because he just doesn't care what affect he has on you. Either way, you can't go based on your belief. You have to speak directly to him, ask him "Do you realize how this is affecting me mentally, emotionally, physically? Do you care? Are you doing it intentiontionally? Is this a matter where you simply enjoy it so much that you don't care about the consequences to me?" Then based on his responses you need to make your choice.

I would not recommend being miserable until it ends in an ugly way. Standing up now and saying "This is bad for me it needs to stop." either means he understands and changes, and your relationship has a chance of a future, or that it ends now. Either way it cuts out the months of misery in between now and when the relationship might change/end, and THAT is a very good thing.

Best of luck to you, your health, and your relationship.

~E




heartfeltsub -> RE: Anti sub drop? (4/20/2007 11:41:28 AM)

RA -- rheumatoid arthritis, (sp?) 



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