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Car bombs - 4/20/2007 5:13:06 PM   
Termyn8or


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Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Been alot of talk about car bombs.

In a new book by Mike Davis called Buda's Wagon the history of the car bomb is explored. I haven't read it, but I read a review of it. It seems the Arabs learned about car bombs from someone else.

The first "car" bomb was actually a "horse drawn carriage" bomb exploded in September 1920. Mario Buda parked it at Wall and Broad street in front of J.P. Morgan.

If I read the review right, in 1947 a Zionist group known as the Stern gang used car bombs in Arab neighborhoods.

Then in 1970, a radical gorup at the University of Wisconson used a McVeigh type bomb and destroyed a good piece of the campus. They got the instructions from a pamphlet "Pothole Blasting for Wildlife" put out by the Wisconson Fish and Game Department.

The author is known for "microhistory" it seems and seems to write relatively short, ad hoc books on subjects that are very specific in nature. I might have a look at this one.

T
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RE: Car bombs - 4/21/2007 12:31:03 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		No takers eh ? K.

T

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RE: Car bombs - 4/21/2007 2:27:13 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		The IRA used car bombs. I bet there's not many Americans on this board who realise the IRA had strong links with the PLO, to the extent that IRA bomb experts actually trained members of the PLO and Hamas. Members of the IRA have also trained in the Lebanon. The point being, Western organisations have had a bearing on Middle East terrorist activities.

Another point worth noting is that the ideals of groups such as the PLO, Hamas, the Algerian and Iranian revolutionaries etc are essentially Western ideals drawn from the French revolution and the Western concept of democracy.


< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 4/21/2007 2:28:07 AM >

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Car bombs - 4/21/2007 3:12:48 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The IRA used car bombs. I bet there's not many Americans on this board who realise the IRA had strong links with the PLO, to the extent that IRA bomb experts actually trained members of the PLO and Hamas. Members of the IRA have also trained in the Lebanon. The point being, Western organisations have had a bearing on Middle East terrorist activities.

Another point worth noting is that the ideals of groups such as the PLO, Hamas, the Algerian and Iranian revolutionaries etc are essentially Western ideals drawn from the French revolution and the Western concept of democracy.



You forgot to mention Columbian drug lords when mentioning the IRA's associations with other terrorist associations.

And I agree with you about the PLO etc having western ideas. Freedom and liberation having to be taken by the gun is essentially a western idea. It is surprising how many American posters don't seem to put together the fact that that is what they did to found their country and it is what is being done against America and the west in general to get Arab and Iranian freedom from colonial domination now.

As for cleansing oneself through violence, one only has to look as far as Sartre's ideas. Also the right to bear arms and protection of ones family from intruders is has been going on in the gun control threads which is what the Arabs and Iraqis inparticular are doing now. The problem is when you try to impose your will through violence or defend oneself by attacking others first, you get a violent response to the violence being perpetrated. It is beyongd me that supporters of the Iraqi invasion don't see US and British action as an existential act of violence.

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RE: Car bombs - 4/21/2007 3:41:32 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

It is beyongd me that supporters of the Iraqi invasion don't see US and British action as an existential act of violence.



I think the violence is recognised by the supporters, but they excuse it because they're going to lead them to a "better" life, and if hundreds of thousands of people die and millions flee to other countries, then let's not worry about that because those still alive will thank the supporters for it later. 

The problem is, I don't recall the government and the supporters being elected by the people of the Middle East to act as trial and jury deciding what foreign people need out of their lives. They've bestowed the righteous tag upon themselves. The only reasonable conclusion is that they have no obligation towards freedom, they're tyrants.

In terms of car bombs and bombing in general, this is a logical conclusion of trying to dampen human spirit. It's impossible to keep people down and the more radical elements will gain support for their solution through violence because people will not be subjugated, maybe temporarily, but not permanently. The Arab nations will not suddenly accept being domintated by US and Israeli interests, they will continue to use car bombs and other tactics until they are allowed self-determination. The only question is, how many people have to die before the penny drops among the supporters and excusers?

Out of interest, is there an example of car bombs being used by Arabs in countries where there is no Western or Israeli influence? We know they're used in Israel/Palestine, and Iraq, what about elsewhere? and who arrived first? the Westerners or the car bombs?

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RE: Car bombs - 4/21/2007 4:35:56 AM   
topcat


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From: Tidewater, VA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The IRA used car bombs. I bet there's not many Americans on this board who realise the IRA had strong links with the PLO, to the extent that IRA bomb experts actually trained members of the PLO and Hamas. Members of the IRA have also trained in the Lebanon. The point being, Western organisations have had a bearing on Middle East terrorist activities.


I recall, right after 9/11/01, when GWB was proclaiming that we were going after everyone that supported terrorism, remarking that 'there goes half the bars in Boston', and having to explain it to people...

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RE: Car bombs - 4/21/2007 4:46:04 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The IRA used car bombs. I bet there's not many Americans on this board who realise the IRA had strong links with the PLO, to the extent that IRA bomb experts actually trained members of the PLO and Hamas. Members of the IRA have also trained in the Lebanon. The point being, Western organisations have had a bearing on Middle East terrorist activities.

Another point worth noting is that the ideals of groups such as the PLO, Hamas, the Algerian and Iranian revolutionaries etc are essentially Western ideals drawn from the French revolution and the Western concept of democracy.



You forgot to mention Columbian drug lords when mentioning the IRA's associations with other terrorist associations.

And I agree with you about the PLO etc having western ideas. Freedom and liberation having to be taken by the gun is essentially a western idea. It is surprising how many American posters don't seem to put together the fact that that is what they did to found their country and it is what is being done against America and the west in general to get Arab and Iranian freedom from colonial domination now.

As for cleansing oneself through violence, one only has to look as far as Sartre's ideas. Also the right to bear arms and protection of ones family from intruders is has been going on in the gun control threads which is what the Arabs and Iraqis inparticular are doing now. The problem is when you try to impose your will through violence or defend oneself by attacking others first, you get a violent response to the violence being perpetrated. It is beyongd me that supporters of the Iraqi invasion don't see US and British action as an existential act of violence.


Also forgot to mention the Basque separatist group ETA. They also use car bombs.

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Car bombs - 4/21/2007 5:01:17 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The IRA used car bombs. I bet there's not many Americans on this board who realise the IRA had strong links with the PLO, to the extent that IRA bomb experts actually trained members of the PLO and Hamas. Members of the IRA have also trained in the Lebanon. The point being, Western organisations have had a bearing on Middle East terrorist activities.


I recall, right after 9/11/01, when GWB was proclaiming that we were going after everyone that supported terrorism, remarking that 'there goes half the bars in Boston', and having to explain it to people...



Believe it or not, there are pubs in England and Scotland that collect funds for the IRA - in places with large Irish communities.

I don't have a problem with Irish independence. There has always been a strong tradition of significant numbers of the English being opposed to empire and opposed to having forces in Ireland.

My only point here is to say that if there are people on this board who see the IRA as freedom fighters, then surely the same people must see Iraqi insurgents as freedom fighters.

It's well documented over here that some Americans funded the IRA, but it's not really known what they thought they were funding. The IRA were anything from freedom fighters, to murderers of men, women and children to gangsters who ran guns and drugs to empower themselves - depending on viewpoint - in truth, all three of those characterisitics underpinned the IRA, but as time passed they increasingly leaned towards drugs and guns running, and freedom became a by-product of the organisation.

Edited for spelling. 

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 4/21/2007 5:03:13 AM >

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RE: Car bombs - 4/21/2007 7:19:38 AM   
topcat


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From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Believe it or not, there are pubs in England and Scotland that collect funds for the IRA - in places with large Irish communities.

I don't have a problem with Irish independence. There has always been a strong tradition of significant numbers of the English being opposed to empire and opposed to having forces in Ireland.

My only point here is to say that if there are people on this board who see the IRA as freedom fighters, then surely the same people must see Iraqi insurgents as freedom fighters.

It's well documented over here that some Americans funded the IRA, but it's not really known what they thought they were funding. The IRA were anything from freedom fighters, to murderers of men, women and children to gangsters who ran guns and drugs to empower themselves - depending on viewpoint - in truth, all three of those characterisitics underpinned the IRA, but as time passed they increasingly leaned towards drugs and guns running, and freedom became a by-product of the organisation.


That's what I refering to- in many 'irish' pubs in the US, they'd pass the hat 'for the lads', funding a terror organisztion, and no one thought a thing of it.

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RE: Car bombs - 4/21/2007 7:31:30 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Believe it or not, there are pubs in England and Scotland that collect funds for the IRA - in places with large Irish communities.

I don't have a problem with Irish independence. There has always been a strong tradition of significant numbers of the English being opposed to empire and opposed to having forces in Ireland.

My only point here is to say that if there are people on this board who see the IRA as freedom fighters, then surely the same people must see Iraqi insurgents as freedom fighters.

It's well documented over here that some Americans funded the IRA, but it's not really known what they thought they were funding. The IRA were anything from freedom fighters, to murderers of men, women and children to gangsters who ran guns and drugs to empower themselves - depending on viewpoint - in truth, all three of those characterisitics underpinned the IRA, but as time passed they increasingly leaned towards drugs and guns running, and freedom became a by-product of the organisation.


That's what I refering to- in many 'irish' pubs in the US, they'd pass the hat 'for the lads', funding a terror organisztion, and no one thought a thing of it.


Ah, I see. Well, times change eh.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 4/21/2007 7:32:01 AM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Car bombs - 4/21/2007 12:18:47 PM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:


The IRA used car bombs. I bet there's not many Americans on this board who realise the IRA had strong links with the PLO, to the extent that IRA bomb experts actually trained members of the PLO and Hamas. Members of the IRA have also trained in the Lebanon. The point being, Western organisations have had a bearing on Middle East terrorist activities.


Heh.... I've posted on this before. Not only has the IRA trained members of Hamas and the PLO....they've also worked with the North Vietnamese and contingents of Khmer Rouge/Pol Pot as well.



- R




_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


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RE: Car bombs - 4/21/2007 12:52:58 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
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Status: offline 		How did we get here ? lol.

"Take this thread to Cuba", ummmm "Where's Cuba, I have a terrible sense of direction". Can't shoot the pilot. But I guess they solved that on 9/10 or before.

Take this thread anywhere you want. Doesn't bother me a bit. A bit about the OT though, I have NOT read the book and I bet alot of the PLO etc., operations are covered.

Now it is my turn to digress a little. Talk about the IRA, PLO and all these "terrorist" groups. Why are there so many ? Did anyone ever stop to think that maybe the powers that be aren't always right ?

It is said that leadership carries a big responsibility, I submit that follership does as well. You cannot prosper as a race if you blindly follow a madman into a quest for world domination. And that is exactly what it is.

The sheeple would think it good if the US government was absolutely immortal and could not be hurt no matter what, even in the event of the end of the world. This attitude also includes that "we" through our "representatives" could just press a button and exterminate people anywhere anythime, even whole families, cities, even races.

You see it is OK for us to have that but nobody else.

While I would like to see every American soldier come home intact (if that is even possible), and I know people who have family over there, I support the freedom fighters. I do not and cannot support them in substance right now, but in spirit, but I understand what they are doing, why they are doing it and I would do exactly the same thing.

If someone invaded this country, as long as I live and breathe they would never sleep. Every time you see something on TV like a car bomb or something they focus on the terrible aftermath, the poor victims. They forgot to mention that in most cases they are occupied countries. The IRA did something ? Hmmm, nobody ever thinks, WHY ?

I remember a song, an oldie "give Ireland back tot he Irish, don't make them have to take it away". Remember that ? I bet a new song like that would make the author a target today.

You see by generating millions of laws and selectively enforcing them, they can silence the opposition. After all when you can put a guy in jail for importing lobsters you got it pretty much covered.

Now they are getting more blatant, with laws against even sending money to certain countries or sects. Now understand this, I have the greatest respect for and obey the Constitution of the US, I consider it the supreme Law of the land. Biblical law means nothing to me, nor does the fucking garbage the government churns out every day. I could care less.

I care not what they say I can and cannot have, I have what I want. When that comes to an end, then I will go out in a blaze of glory. I will also take as many of those MFs with me as I can, because followers must be responsible too, they must not violate my rights. That means the police, gobmint agencies, the IRS, everybody. If I cannot live the way I want to live, I will be willing to die, and probably rather would.

I live my live responsibly, and I think everyone should. I don't want to hurt anyone, I don't want to steal anything. Above all I do not want to violate anyone's rights. The government is lawless, and continually violates everone's rights, so as far as I am concerned they are a bunch of criminals. I have no respect for them, save a few like Paul and Tancredo.

So I guess I am really a sociopath, but of the worst kind. Non-practicing. They can't get me because I don't do anything. This is talk. Like Pierce and others who are/were intelligent I would never try to incite anyone to a violent act. It simply doesn't work. But let me tell you the reason.

See, if we had Mc Veigh and about 30 some odd others like him twenty years ago, maybe more, patriots could become a force to be reckoned with. But the REASON that I do not advocate violence is not any passive tendency on my part. By no means.

The REASON I do not advocate violence is that it will not work, they are too strong. We are too weak, they have taken so much away. Car bombs and shit like that are like a mosquito bite, and they extract the money for salve from the people anyway, it is never their money.

An act of violence does accomplish a few things, makes it more expensive to maintain control, and gives them the heebie-jeebies. But it is like a mosquito bite, it doesn't hurt them.

What we need is to be more like a BIG BIG bug landing right on their face when they are driving 70 MPH. You see, we need to make THEM fuck up.

Now if someone could come up with a plan that would do that, with minimum collateral damage I would consider supporting it. I said I WOULD CONSIDER supporting it. I would much rather get our people into government and have the change originate from within.

Big money people have been running this country from it's inception, face it. But back then big money people were a bit different. The Men who founded this country did so because they didn't like what was happening to them. I can't comment on their concern for the commoners, but their documents infer that they had some concern for people in general.

Good lookin out is all I can say. As fucked up as it is, they are having a very hard time getting holocaust denial laws passed here. Even hate crime laws. Remember the guy that got dragged to death in Texas, well his killers all the sudden support hate crime laws, because they disclude the death penalty. Of course this is because they are on death row. Does this not indicate that the first page, they very first page of the "Protocols" might be correct. We have murderers technically, that now want to make a federal case out of their own crimes.

Recommended listening if you like country : Mr. Lincoln by Hank Williams Jr.

Now here's a fuckin twist for you, I believe the twinkie defense. Sugar is a drug. And people blindly give their kids that Karo, they sweeten everythign from the time the kid is born. As a non-smoker or non-drinker or non-drug user sees the addiction of those who do these things, I can see a similar addiction to sugar. Iknow people who can't drink a fucking glass of water unless there is something in it. And it always involves sugar.

But in no way do I think the twinkie defense should result in acquital(sp). It might lend itself to begging leniency, but no more than in the case of an intoxicated driver or whatever causing an accident. In other words, if you killed people for no reason because you are crazy you get executed anyway. The way I would have it is if you killed innocent people because you ar mentally defective, in a state of rage, or intoxicated, it is all the same.

This is one of the point on which I agree with the Bible. An eye for an eye and so forth.

I am going to cap this because of it's importance, and I know someone is going to have something to say:

I DON'T CARE IF YOU KILLED BECAUSE YOU ARE DRUNK, CRAZY, STUPID OR WHATEVER REASON. IF YOU KILL SOMEONE FOR NO GOOD REASON YOU ARE KILLED. THAT IS IT.

In other words, we start excising the cancerous parts of our society.

Now here's the real problem : WE WOULD HAVE TO START AT THE TOP.

Not just here, England, Israel, Austrailia all over the place. Fucking Austrailia, my dream place to go retire at, not no more. They took the guns away, wait a minute, they still have crocs right ? So much for that. And I can't believe people turned in their guns. Down under ? That really hurt, but I didn't let it break my spirit.

I find it similarly distessing when Americans turn in their guns. I mean it is hard for me to sustain, even thinking about this shit. Although a good joke (at least to me) has come out of it.

In US cities they wre giving incentives for people to turn in their guns, among those incentive were many things, but of note, one was a free psychological examination. I couldn't think of anything more appropriate.

I want to see you use a car bomb when a stray pit bull is eating your five year old child in the backyard. I want to see you use a car bomb when the cops are at the door because you failed to pay a fine. I want to see you use a car bomb at the parking lot of the mall when you are getting raped and tied up and killed in your minivan.

The car bomb is a tool of desperation. Just who is it that wants people to be so desperate ?

Yes, Mc Veigh should've been on a conference call with thirty others, and at a certain GMT (I don't feel like figuring it out right now) push the button, and stay in the car. He is dead anyway, so what's the difference, he would still be dead, but would've not spent all that time in jail. In other words, if you are going to give your life, tender it immediately.

That's what suicide bombers do. And they are called cowards by peopl who push a fucking button in a plane and bomb villages and children. But they are "our" heros.

Yeah right. Know what ? I am ashamed to live on this planet, where things like this happen. And they alwayt try to quell iot, rather than figure out the cause. I DON'T FUCKING CARE IF THEY ARE RADICALS, they are on the other side of the planet ! Let them alone. Fuck Israel, let them nuke whoever and be done with it, ythis is the biggest money pit they have ever opened, with the possible exception of WW2.

Any really astute student of history (actually I am not) knows that while Hitler may have started WW2, he did not cause WW2.

Why didn't Carter just return the Shah to Iran for a taste of the torture he met out to his enemies ? Why did we just NOT help Saddam Hussein to power in Iraq ? Why didn't we just leave those fucking people alone ? Why didn't we just see if the Zionist led Jews could actually take that country, and live in a land in which they cannot sleep for generations. It still is that way anyway.

Why didn't we have friendly relations with Japan (Nippon) instead of fucking with their trade before they bombed Pearl Harbor ?

In the end, why didn't we follow the true and proper course for our nation ? Why didn't we heed the advice of the founding Fathers and just be friendly with all, and have normal trade, but no significant alliances.

And the biggest, last, to end all problem for me. The problem that makes me drink and smoke (not that it's an excuse), the reason I cannot find peace ever, IS BACAUSE I CAN TELL YOU WHY THE WORLD IS THE WAY IT IS.

If I do you will not like it. I am serious. I can give details.

If you think the royal scam has been going on from the inception of this country, think again. It has been going on for five thousand years. They got their act together.

They say that if you give a Man a million dollars he will be broke in a matter of years, but if you take a million from a Man who made it, he will make it again, even maybe starting out with nothing.

It's the attitude. Attitude is also partially derived from the position in which one is born.

Does that shed any light ?

T

PS, can't proof this, people coming in, bear with me.

T

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: Car bombs - 4/21/2007 1:40:40 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger


quote:


The IRA used car bombs. I bet there's not many Americans on this board who realise the IRA had strong links with the PLO, to the extent that IRA bomb experts actually trained members of the PLO and Hamas. Members of the IRA have also trained in the Lebanon. The point being, Western organisations have had a bearing on Middle East terrorist activities.


Heh.... I've posted on this before. Not only has the IRA trained members of Hamas and the PLO....they've also worked with the North Vietnamese and contingents of Khmer Rouge/Pol Pot as well.


- R


News to me UR, bet some Americans on this board know a thing or two about revolutionaries/freedom fighters/insurgents passing 'round a few trade secrets :-)

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Car bombs - 4/21/2007 2:44:34 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Now it is my turn to digress a little. Talk about the IRA, PLO and all these "terrorist" groups. Why are there so many ? Did anyone ever stop to think that maybe the powers that be aren't always right ?



It's not possible to keep people down for a length of time. I'm not aware of any people who haven't at some point said fuck this, got their act together, and started to make their own rules - ending with forcing out the occupiers.

There are so many because of policies like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhQ4SXKrWw4

People will only put up with others taking the piss for so long, and then they'll fight back.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

You see it is OK for us to have that but nobody else.



Same here. Our government is seriously considering spending billions of pounds on nuclear arms, while telling Iran they can't have any. I mean, the Iranians must be laughing their fuckin' heads off when they hear this kind of talk. We need restriction on our civil liberties to protect us, then we need nuclear weapons to protect us - where's the logical conclusion to all of this? We need to kill everyone in the world to protect us? Personally, I don't lay the blame squarely at the door of the government - they can't do anything without a platform.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

While I would like to see every American soldier come home intact (if that is even possible), and I know people who have family over there, I support the freedom fighters. I do not and cannot support them in substance right now, but in spirit, but I understand what they are doing, why they are doing it and I would do exactly the same thing.



If there was any justice in this world, the occupiers in Iraq would be made up of people who actually believe this is a just cause, including the people here who are prepared to fight to the last drop of someone else's blood.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

If someone invaded this country, as long as I live and breathe they would never sleep. Every time you see something on TV like a car bomb or something they focus on the terrible aftermath, the poor victims. They forgot to mention that in most cases they are occupied countries. The IRA did something ? Hmmm, nobody ever thinks, WHY ?



This is about the size of it. This British sailors thing, what were they doing in the Arabian/Persian gulf thousands of miles from home? Then it's turned into a squabble between whose waters it is - conveniently forgetting that the squabble was defined by a territorial map drawn up by the British government - Iran and Iraq have never agreed their bilateral boundary in the gulf. Then imagine if there was a build up of forces surrounding Britain and the US and there were rumours of task forces to be operating on home soil - people would be up in arms, and doing a lot more than taking 15 people hostage and giving them a clip before sending them on their way with a goody bag.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I remember a song, an oldie "give Ireland back tot he Irish, don't make them have to take it away". Remember that ? I bet a new song like that would make the author a target today.



That's about it. Terrorism is defined for us, and we're all expected to fall into line depending on the mood of the day i.e. who they deem to be terrorists.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Not just here, England, Israel, Austrailia all over the place. Fucking Austrailia, my dream place to go retire at, not no more. They took the guns away, wait a minute, they still have crocs right ? So much for that. And I can't believe people turned in their guns. Down under ? That really hurt, but I didn't let it break my spirit. I find it similarly distessing when Americans turn in their guns. I mean it is hard for me to sustain, even thinking about this shit. Although a good joke (at least to me) has come out of it.



I don't have much of an opinion about the rights and wrongs of owning guns, I've never really thought much about it, but I reckon the government aren't overly concerned about the population sitting in their houses with bazookas as people aren't much of a threat from inside the four walls of their home. Plus, their propaganda is a far more potent tool than the population's guns. 


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Yeah right. Know what ? I am ashamed to live on this planet, where things like this happen. And they alwayt try to quell iot, rather than figure out the cause. I DON'T FUCKING CARE IF THEY ARE RADICALS, they are on the other side of the planet ! Let them alone. Fuck Israel, let them nuke whoever and be done with it, ythis is the biggest money pit they have ever opened, with the possible exception of WW2.



The biggest army in the Middle East, given to them by the Americans, didn't help the Shah in 1979.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Why didn't Carter just return the Shah to Iran for a taste of the torture he met out to his enemies ? Why did we just NOT help Saddam Hussein to power in Iraq ? Why didn't we just leave those fucking people alone ? Why didn't we just see if the Zionist led Jews could actually take that country, and live in a land in which they cannot sleep for generations. It still is that way anyway.



I have sympathy for the Jews. Their plight is a result of European (particulary Central and East European) anti-semitism. Many of the Jews alive after WW2 were forced out of Eastern Europe. But, of all people, you'd think they'd be the last to launch into subjugation - then again, they've been backed into a corner by European anti-semitism. Problem is, I don't think it is a battle they can win in the Middle East.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

And the biggest, last, to end all problem for me. The problem that makes me drink and smoke (not that it's an excuse), the reason I cannot find peace ever, IS BACAUSE I CAN TELL YOU WHY THE WORLD IS THE WAY IT IS.

If I do you will not like it. I am serious. I can give details.



Should be interesting if you want to put some meat on the bones of this one.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Car bombs - 4/21/2007 8:55:46 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		NG;

You mentioned anti semitism.

You don't think it might be because of what they do, do you ?

Judaics, Hebrews, whatever, have my respect, but the people who run that country need to be tortured to death, for like a month or two.

Of course it is the same here and in the UK.Our "leaders" are traitors. And it has been that way for quite a while. Regular people don't see it because they are born into it, and things are how they have always been, to them. Only a little bit worse. Every generation, every chance they get.You need to see the bigger picture, and I don't care what you do or who you are, the basic difference is this : Are other people friends or resources ?

Think about that. See it in yourself to see it in others, to understand it.

Nuff for now.

T


(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Car bombs - 4/21/2007 9:30:32 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I have sympathy for the Jews. Their plight is a result of European (particulary Central and East European) anti-semitism. Many of the Jews alive after WW2 were forced out of Eastern Europe. But, of all people, you'd think they'd be the last to launch into subjugation - then again, they've been backed into a corner by European anti-semitism. Problem is, I don't think it is a battle they can win in the Middle East.



Kissinger et al, in their round table about potential outcomes from Bush invading Iraq, were pretty unanimous that the invasion of Iraq was one of the last coffin nails in the country of Isreal. 

I tend to agree with their analysis.  Isreal has only survived with the military support of the United States, and when the US pulls out of Iraq with our tail between our legs, Muslims will no longer fear US retaliation should they scrape Isreal into the ocean.

Considering Isreal's treatment of the indigenous population they supplanted, not sure how much sympathy I want to give them for their plight.

Sinergy 



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Car bombs - 4/21/2007 9:54:38 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

[...] but the people who run that country need to be tortured to death, for like a month or two.


I don't think that solves anything, and there's this whole "two wrongs don't make a right" issue that got them into this in the first place IIRC, although I'm not big on Israeli history.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Car bombs - 4/21/2007 10:03:21 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Kissinger et al, in their round table about potential outcomes from Bush invading Iraq, were pretty unanimous that the invasion of Iraq was one of the last coffin nails in the country of Isreal. 


It must be a multidimensional nail or something, 'cause it's in quite a number of coffins.

quote:

I tend to agree with their analysis.  Isreal has only survived with the military support of the United States, and when the US pulls out of Iraq with our tail between our legs, Muslims will no longer fear US retaliation should they scrape Isreal into the ocean.


Interesting analysis, and not necessarily far off. Plus, there's the whole bit about this playing right into Iran's hands, opening the door for the posibility of a unified fundamentalist islamic republic.

That said, Israel has a pretty impressive military might, and have demonstrated a willingness to ignore all positive human traits while displaying all the bad ones, at least when it comes to stuff they care about. Talking about the gov't level here, of course. They do have nukes, in the opinions of most analysts, and I'm fairly sure they'd be quite willing to use them, even if it meant mutually assured destruction. After all, if "G*d's chosen people" can't have what's "theirs", who cares what becomes of the infidels left behind?

quote:

Considering Isreal's treatment of the indigenous population they supplanted, not sure how much sympathy I want to give them for their plight.


The people in charge in Israel? Not a lot. The regular blokes in the street? Quite a bit.

Sure, there are some that pointedly stir up trouble, but you find those in any country. The ones walking around with that T-shirt that has "There is no Palestinian state" printed in English, Hebrew and Arabic, for instance. That's just practical Darwinism waiting to happen.

But the average Joe is fairly decent, I suspect. My landlord recently visited, including Gaza, and commented that there are lots of people there on both sides that do manage to live harmoniously side-by-side. I can't comment personally, though, and I suspect he's rather pro-Israel, but I can see it happening.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Car bombs - 4/22/2007 4:14:16 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

NG;

You mentioned anti semitism.

You don't think it might be because of what they do, do you ?



Places where most of the European Jews lived, such as Poland and Russia, were still having pogroms in the 20th century, then the place where they'd lived in relative freedom tried to annihilate them, then the survivors are forced out of Eastern Europe. Ultimately, they landed in a place with neighbouring countries bitterly opposed to them being there. That is some corner to be backed into.

The picture we get over here is that some of the Israelis are carrying out ethnic cleansing of Palestinian areas - forcing them out, bulldozing their homes and grabbing their land. But, we're also presented with a view of the Israelis who are opposed to all of that and want to see reconciliation with the Arabs. It seems the usual case of the more militant factions coming to the fore in society and getting their way, at the expense of everyone else just wanting to get their heads down and get on with life.

Yeah, I don't think the government are doing ordinary Israelis any favours with their approach and they're simply storing up enemies for a rainy day. But what are the US and Britain doing in the region. The foreign secretary recently said "Britain is Israel's best friend" - I mean, that's demented talk, you have to laugh because the British government has a history of telling anybody anything providing they can get something out of it, and artificially propping them up and pissing everyone else off in the region is not much of a friend as far as I can see.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Are other people friends or resources ?



Simple enough to work out, when it really matters, would you be there for your friends?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Car bombs - 4/22/2007 4:24:58 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I have sympathy for the Jews. Their plight is a result of European (particulary Central and East European) anti-semitism. Many of the Jews alive after WW2 were forced out of Eastern Europe. But, of all people, you'd think they'd be the last to launch into subjugation - then again, they've been backed into a corner by European anti-semitism. Problem is, I don't think it is a battle they can win in the Middle East.



Kissinger et al, in their round table about potential outcomes from Bush invading Iraq, were pretty unanimous that the invasion of Iraq was one of the last coffin nails in the country of Isreal. 

I tend to agree with their analysis.  Isreal has only survived with the military support of the United States, and when the US pulls out of Iraq with our tail between our legs, Muslims will no longer fear US retaliation should they scrape Isreal into the ocean.

Considering Isreal's treatment of the indigenous population they supplanted, not sure how much sympathy I want to give them for their plight.

Sinergy 



I appreciate where you're coming from Sinergy, but it's not all of the Israelis. The equivalent would be like a Muslim showing no sympathy for bombed/dead British and Americans because their governments can't keep themselves to themselves.

I do agree that it's a case of when, rather than if, the US abandon their position in the ME, and as the Israeli government has been racking up enemies right, left and centre, they're in for a rough time of it. Mind you, they have a few nukes to keep neighbouring countries at bay. The best hope for the Israelis is to build a few bridges and come up with a land settlement happy to both parties, because at some point the other side will fight back and the bigger the grievance, the rougher the Israelis will have it.

(in reply to Sinergy)
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