I know better than YOU (Full Version)

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puella -> I know better than YOU (4/23/2007 12:45:26 PM)

A curious thought popped into my head when I was perusing the 'I Know Better than Your Master' thread.

What about the idea that a Dominant, even the one who owns you will know you better than you know yourself?

I really have trouble with that.  I have even more trouble with those who espouse the idea that (I am just going with my gender here) a male dominant has some god given genetic decoder mechanism which allows him to know more than a female submissive about what will damage her (all she has to do is trust in her femaleness and his domly man-ness and surrender to her true self, etc etc).  I am wondering what others think about this (my previous sentence having pretty obviously revealed my own thoughts on the idea). 

It also makes me wonder if, you are willing to admit that no one can know a person like they know him/herself, can there ever really be TPE, no limits, no boundaries... or can there be such a thing with any real good conscience (unless of course the owner has the same 'limits/boundaries' as the slave in question)?

.



bayboundse -> RE: I know better than YOU (4/23/2007 12:48:08 PM)

I want one of the genetic decoder mechanisms. Please let me know where to buy one lol. My sub/slave confuses me on a regular basis ;)  .



mistoferin -> RE: I know better than YOU (4/23/2007 12:49:07 PM)

lol puella.....I'm just going to sit here on my hands and watch how this goes.



puella -> RE: I know better than YOU (4/23/2007 12:49:24 PM)

Check with benji, he is holding yours ransom for his avatar.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: I know better than YOU (4/23/2007 12:51:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella
I really have trouble with that.  I have even more trouble with those who espouse the idea that (I am just going with my gender here) a male dominant has some god given genetic decoder mechanism which allows him to know more than a female submissive about what will damage her (all she has to do is trust in her femaleness and his domly man-ness and surrender to her true self, etc etc).  I am wondering what others think about this (my previous sentence having pretty obviously revealed my own thoughts on the idea). 

Well I'm pretty much going to give the same response here as I did there:

Well frankly, most people out there are really stupid and sucky, so chances are I *do* know better than they do.

However, I never let that interfere with "consent."  Unlike most people in the scene who are willing to pay endless amounts of lip service to the term and then throw it overboard whenever it seems convenient- I respect another adults right to informed consent above ALL else. 

So if someone sincerely tells me it's what works for them...there's nothing for me to say.  I'll give advice, I'll give perspective, but I respect them too much to deny them their own choices for themselves.

Mostly because it would be pretty much the worst offense I find people do to ME when they tell me I don't know what's best for me or that my choices or wrong.

Adding:
Not to mention, lots of slaves LOOOOOVVE when a master "can read their mind" and "knows when to push me" and that feeling of seduction.  It's how all those girls who push up all those walls can find themselves being seduced and heartbroken over and over again, because they really WANT someone to come in and take over.

And, in the beginning, most will say "No way will I ever be ok with that!" Well frankly, most of us know better, we know that in time they will very much be coming to LOVE some of those things they freaked out about.

But it's still rude to say so to that person or to push your ideas of what will happen onto them.  Everytime I see a newbie rush into a collar within the first 2 months (weeks) of "discovering all this" I just sit and hang back.  It's their choice.

quote:


It also makes me wonder if, you are willing to admit that no one can know a person like they know him/herself, can there ever really be TPE, no limits, no boundaries... or can there be such a thing with any real good conscience (unless of course the owner has the same 'limits/boundaries' as the slave in question)?

I don't think no limits is healthy personally.  But there certainly can be ultimate authority in place.  Ultimate authority isn't based on "knowing all"- it's based on knowing what needs to be known in order for everyone to work together.  The master must consent as much as the slave, the slave must be as informed as the master, or the relationship won't work.



xonemasterx -> RE: I know better than YOU (4/23/2007 12:52:27 PM)

Are some goals supposed to be unattainable?  I do not see myself ever knowing someone completely.  Time changes yourself and others.  There is discovery, rediscovery, and evolving wants and needs.

It keeps the whole process entertaining.



OedipusRexIt -> RE: I know better than YOU (4/23/2007 1:04:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella


It also makes me wonder if, you are willing to admit that no one can know a person like they know him/herself...
.


I think I agree with most of what you've said, although I always grant that there are exceptions.  You may also be more enigmatic than some people....

I would add to what you've written by saying there's a corollary:  Sometimes, one knows things about a person that person doesn't know about themselves, lacking the needed perspective or introspection.

As always, thought provoking question!



spanklette -> RE: I know better than YOU (4/23/2007 1:14:58 PM)

I would never venture to say that my Daddy knows more about me than I do...but He can make it seem that way. Having an outsider's persective, no matter how biased, will give me the feeling that they know something about me that I don't know. And by "outsiders" I mean those close enough to know me well. Sometimes that can lead to self-doubt, but being that I try to choose my friends wisely, most of the time it leads to feeling self empowered.
 
I think it may be less about knowing someone better than they know themselves, and more about the third person perspective. It can seem almost psychic at times, especially when there is something that you have been mulling over.
 
Edited to add:
 
Dominants are in a fantastic positon to make a submissive feel this way. They're taking all of that personal information that the submissive has given and processing it. If they've listened close enough, and have the emotional intelligence to really persue what the submissive is concentrating on. Then they've got that ESP kinda aura.



Padriag -> RE: I know better than YOU (4/23/2007 1:18:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

What about the idea that a Dominant, even the one who owns you will know you better than you know yourself?

In some cases, I have known a submissive better than she knew herself.  That isn't true in every case, but it is true in some cases where I've invested the time and effort required.

quote:

I really have trouble with that.

Given your reasoning, I'm not surprised.  It has nothing to do with genetics or any innate abilities.  In my case it has to do with personal experience, and the 20 odd years I've spent studying psychology.  In some cases it was as simple as my being objective about something the submissive couldn't be objective about.  Sometimes people won't see things about themselves simply because they don't want to accept what it would imply... to someone more objective it may be plain as day. 

quote:

It also makes me wonder if, you are willing to admit that no one can know a person like they know him/herself, can there ever really be TPE, no limits, no boundaries... or can there be such a thing with any real good conscience (unless of course the owner has the same 'limits/boundaries' as the slave in question)?

Given that I disagree with your basic supposition...   A person with good insight can sometimes know another person better than themselves.  I've found it invaluable in dealing with some submissives, knowing where they were going before they did aided me in guiding them through the journey.  The more I've honed that skill (and it definitely is a skill), the better I am able to see into what motivates and drives people.  Its part of why I continue to study psychology, behavior, body language, etc.

Here's a difference between what I do and some who merely claim some "secret knowledge, I can explain exactly what I know and how I know it.  Its a bit like algebra in high school... show your work, don't just give the answer, show how you arrived at it.  I'd tend to be suspicious of anyone who couldn't demonstrate how they arrived at their "knowledge."  I tend to apply that to a lot of things.



slaveish -> RE: I know better than YOU (4/23/2007 1:25:30 PM)

Master doesn't know me better than I know myself but he pushes me more than I push myself. He pushes me to be a better person, inwardly and outwardly, than I do. As LA stated about some s-types, I love someone else pulling the strings, and of course I have my own reasons for that. I have the ultimate say whether or not I will do or withhold doing a certain thing.

Being his slave makes me stretch and reach and trust, and it makes me think - is what he is commanding of me potentially harmful to me or to my family (the answer has always been "no") and how far am I willing to go for him? (The answer is farther than I ever imagined.) I am not his collared slave - we are trying on to see if things fit. If he commanded me to do something that was completely against my ethics or common sense, I would know that he was just playing with me and not trying to Master me. (It's like we're both in school - he is in the school of me and I am in the School of He.)



Wildfleurs -> RE: I know better than YOU (4/23/2007 1:25:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

A curious thought popped into my head when I was perusing the 'I Know Better than Your Master' thread.

What about the idea that a Dominant, even the one who owns you will know you better than you know yourself?


I think there's a few options when thats happened:

1. Its romantic tripe usually said with doe eyes
2. The person doesn't know themselves that well, so that its not hard for the dominant to know them better than they know themselves
3. The dominant is a svengali

Generally I've noticed that its mostly number two, with sometimes it being number one and never being number three.  Honestly my owner knows me pretty well, but I think my mother, who I'm very close to, knows me better than my owner.  And I believe I know myself better than my mother.

quote:


It also makes me wonder if, you are willing to admit that no one can know a person like they know him/herself, can there ever really be TPE, no limits, no boundaries... or can there be such a thing with any real good conscience (unless of course the owner has the same 'limits/boundaries' as the slave in question)?


I'm really not seeing the connection between someone knowing you better than you know yourself and not having limits.  At least for me, I can constantly work to strive to have no boundaries from my owner and adjust when necessary so that there aren't boundaries.  Doesn't mean we don't talk about it.

C~



Mercnbeth -> RE: I know better than YOU (4/23/2007 1:36:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella
What about the idea that a Dominant, even the one who owns you will know you better than you know yourself?


No it is not possible. The same reasons regarding specific 'knowledge, for instance the impossibility for a dominant to know how the submissive feels and processes pain, make it impossible to know the global knowledge of any other individual.

quote:

It also makes me wonder if, you are willing to admit that no one can know a person like they know him/herself, can there ever really be TPE, no limits, no boundaries... or can there be such a thing with any real good conscience (unless of course the owner has the same 'limits/boundaries' as the slave in question)?


Yes. The idea of "no limits" and TPE are not contingent upon a total symbiotic relationship. It can occur if people have the exact same "limits", goals, fantasies; but I think that is rare. Most of the time one or both parties have a heavy dose of rationalization in the mix. Another way, common and necessary for any long term relationship is total disclosure and honesty before entering the relationship and regular ongoing feedback. The biggest problem with this concept is that most people aren't honest with themselves. Beyond not wanting to face and analyze what they see in the mirror, they only have comparable goals and don't want to take the effort and time for developing independent definitions, and independent goals.

What you should, can, and must know is how much you can trust your partner. In that case you can, "know better". A very close friend of ours believes himself to be very reliable and trustworthy. We KNOW he isn't. Not in matters of money or assistance when in need. But we know him better than he knows himself regarding his time management and being late for social occasions. It doesn't disrupt our friendship. We just KNOW not to wait for him to order appetizers and drinks if going to dinner. We know if he says he'll be coming over to our place - he may not and go about our lives accordingly. He'll claim some excuse, but the reality is you just can't trust him in this regard.

Once you know something in this regard it should never upset you. Like getting involved with someone who is cheating - when they cheat on you should it be a surprise? Sometimes you do know someone better than they do, but you still don't act upon that knowledge. In those instances who is the fool?

A good rule of thumb? Most of the time, when someone starts a large percentage of their discussion with; "Trust me,..." - It indicates you can't.



mistoferin -> RE: I know better than YOU (4/23/2007 1:38:33 PM)

Okay....so I'm not really all that good at sitting on my hands......

Over the course of my life I have known people who THOUGHT that they know me better than I know myself. I have had people who have attempted to manipulate me with this amazing insight. I have also had people who have inspired me in one way or another to gain a greater understanding of myself or recognize something that was for some reason obscured to me. But the bottom line is that the ultimate decision as to what will be or will not be best for me is mine and mine alone.



puella -> RE: I know better than YOU (4/23/2007 1:43:14 PM)

Hehe, quick as a flash, chicklette!



mstrjx -> RE: I know better than YOU (4/23/2007 1:50:13 PM)

<sigh>  How to approach this.......

Padriag and I are on the same page, as I have found in many instances of late.  I have also known people who not only were so transparent 'to me', as well as so 'simple' (few dimensions) that it took no time at all to glean much of their entirety.  Of course that I take the time to pay as close attention as possible to some people (partners, mostly), this might not be a surprise.

But somehow I think the point of this post goes back even further, and needs to be addressed in a very simple manner.

If we base D/s or M/s in some way shape or form about authority, the ability to make decisions or choices for another, then let's start there.

From a submissive perspective, allowing another to make choices in 'X' area of his/her life, is this not an admission in some small way that their trust in that dominant partner allows them to feel that that partner is better apt (and better 'knowing') to take that control?

If not, then what is submission?  Or are we back to simple topping/bottoming/kinky sex?

From one 'decision' or area of one's life, to the next, to the next.  Until the entirety is covered or some limit is reached.  And of course with each instance of ceding of control means a heightened responsibility to the dominant partner.

Jeff



Twicehappy2x -> RE: I know better than YOU (4/23/2007 2:05:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: spanklette


Dominants are in a fantastic positon to make a submissive feel this way. They're taking all of that personal information that the submissive has given and processing it. If they've listened close enough, and have the emotional intelligence to really persue what the submissive is concentrating on. Then they've got that ESP kinda aura.


So true but there are the good witches and the bad ones.
 
Some have the intelligence but lack the conscience to guide it. 
 
So i guess it is up to the subbies to play Dorothy and ask "are you a good witch or a bad witch?"



mistoferin -> RE: I know better than YOU (4/23/2007 2:13:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx
From a submissive perspective, allowing another to make choices in 'X' area of his/her life, is this not an admission in some small way that their trust in that dominant partner allows them to feel that that partner is better apt (and better 'knowing') to take that control?


No, at least it's not for me. For me it is not an admission that they are "better" equipped....it is simply a decision on MY part to concede authority in "X" area. For me my decision to consent to such is not one that is based upon their "better" knowledge but upon my level of trust and comfort in their abilities to be "adequately" equipped to assume the responsibility of having such control. There is no assumption on my part that they will always make the decision that would be "better" for me than I would myself or that there will not be times when their decisions may definitely NOT be what is best for me.



WhiplashSmile -> RE: I know better than YOU (4/23/2007 2:25:29 PM)

quote:


What about the idea that a Dominant, even the one who owns you will know you better than you know yourself?

I believe this is the case when you are acting out a form of self denial, or are not wanting to face the truth you already know.   A good Dom or Anybody that really knows you well, will see these things.   This applies to anybody that knows you.  People at times have a habit of not wanting to come clean with themselves or do not want to see the truth for a variety of reason.



MadameButterfly -> RE: I know better than YOU (4/23/2007 2:27:36 PM)

I must admit I enjoyed this post a great deal. However I do not think that it is just male Dominants that take on this "I know better than you" attitude I have seen it over the years with female Dominants as well. 

It is true we cannot know our bottoms/slave/submissives better than they (should) know themselves.  It goes without saying.  It does or at least should come down to communication and making communication regarding whatever situation open and comfortable for the bottom/slave/submissive.  This is not always an easy task but an effort should be there in order to further growth for everyone involved.

Always,   Madame Butterfly   “How does one become a butterfly?" she asked. "You must want to fly so much that you are willing to give up being a caterpillar.”



fairerthanshe -> RE: I know better than YOU (4/23/2007 2:29:39 PM)

Greetings puella,

there are times my Mentor knows things about me or recognizes things in me that it would take me a thousand years and dozen pick axes to get to.  the same could be said for Master Stephan and some of the topics we have discussed - its as if they see right through me.

Do they know me better than i know myself? maybe not - but they have insights that i do not have perspective to obtain.

well wishes,

fairer than she



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