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From humiliation to degradation - 4/29/2005 6:40:01 PM

MrKite

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Joined: 3/11/2005
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Based on this definition provided in the link http://www.sexuality.org/l/wh/att36.html that Checkers (thanks for that) referred to in the thread what humiliates you, we decide to make this thread. I hope it will be as interesting.

Humiliation is the process of lowering a person's pride, dignity, or self-esteem, often by encouraging him to see himself as foolish, contemptible, or worthless.

Degradation is the process of lowering a person's rank, status, value, or worth – "de-grading" him – usually in someone else's eyes and often, thereby, in his own. This is how degradation may frequently lead to humiliation.

We see a well-defined difference between humiliation and degradation. The key words that we’d like to focus on are rank and status. Degradation makes the sub feel more submissive, there by increasing the power exchange dynamic.

What do you give or receive that changes or increases the differential of rank or status? What widens that gap between Dom and sub that increases your libido? Is it words or actions?

Thanks in advance...
Mr Kite and cellogrrlMK

< Message edited by MrKite -- 4/29/2005 6:46:25 PM >

_____________________________

If it feels good, do it.

Post #: 1

RE: From humiliation to degradation - 4/29/2005 9:21:49 PM

siamsa24

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I tend to see humiliation as leading to degradation and not the other way around. Perhaps I have different definitions though. The way I see it they are similar, but humiliation is temporary while degradation is more permenant and may lead to emotional and psychological scarring.

Personally, due to past relationships I cannot be humiliatied at all. I take words and actions very seriously and even if something is not fully ment I still take it very hard. I hope this makes sense, I have been writting a research paper for the past 3 hours and my brain's a little fuzzy...........

(in reply to MrKite)

Post #: 2

RE: From humiliation to degradation - 4/29/2005 9:33:29 PM

Lordandmaster

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This is an interesting subject, but I think it's a basic mistake to reify words. It's not like there is some Concept Out There called "humiliation," and some Other Concept called "degradation." The two obviously overlap. Etymologically, "humiliate" means bringing someone down to the earth, and "degrade" means, much as your quote said, removing someone's rank and dignity. So you can humiliate someone and degrade someone all at the same time. (In fact, I've done it, and it can be lots of fun!)

Lam

(in reply to MrKite)

Post #: 3

RE: From humiliation to degradation - 4/29/2005 9:37:55 PM

cellogrrlMK

Posts: 672
Joined: 3/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: siamsa24

I tend to see humiliation as leading to degradation and not the other way around. Perhaps I have different definitions though. The way I see it they are similar, but humiliation is temporary while degradation is more permenant and may lead to emotional and psychological scarring.

Master and I have talked about this alot... I see humiliation as doing something that is really embarrassing and as much as I like to please there are just some things I cannot bring myself to do. Degradation, to me anyway, involves the lowering of my status in comparison to his. I don't like humiliation but degradation helps put me into a good mindset

.

quote:

Personally, due to past relationships I cannot be humiliatied at all. I take words and actions very seriously and even if something is not fully ment I still take it very hard. I hope this makes sense, I have been writting a research paper for the past 3 hours and my brain's a little fuzzy...........

See, due to past experiences (not necessarily relationships) I am pretty easily humiliated (even though I might not show it at the time) and it is VERY distasteful to me. The emotional and pyschological scarring are already there from that and I react to it in a very negative way.

I hope you're done with that paper!

cello

(in reply to siamsa24)

Post #: 4

RE: From humiliation to degradation - 4/29/2005 9:43:42 PM

siamsa24

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Joined: 2/2/2004
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quote:

The emotional and pyschological scarring are already there from that and I react to it in a very negative way.

I hope you're done with that paper!

They both make me cry (and not in a good way) and I never really get over it, even the tiniest little thing can make me question for months ("you don't really think that I am a dirty slut, do you?")

Nope, not done with the paper yet, almost though, almost.

(in reply to cellogrrlMK)

Post #: 5

RE: From humiliation to degradation - 4/29/2005 9:48:09 PM

cellogrrlMK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: siamsa24

They both make me cry (and not in a good way) and I never really get over it, even the tiniest little thing can make me question for months ("you don't really think that I am a dirty slut, do you?")

See, I LIKE being a dirty slut... HIS anyway!

But to me that's degrading, not humiliating. Being made to crawl or being dragged around by my hair isn't something I consider humiliating, but rather degrading... hell, I've been growing my hair out so just so he has more to grab onto! lol

quote:

Nope, not done with the paper yet, almost though, almost.

I'm sure it'll be awesome!

(in reply to siamsa24)

Post #: 6

RE: From humiliation to degradation - 4/29/2005 9:50:01 PM

siamsa24

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I can't handle anything like that. Sometimes it makes things difficult, but he is very understanding (funny thing is, if he says "look at MY dirty little slut" then it's ok, so maybe we are on the same page with that, I just have to actually hear the words)

And I hope my professor agrees with you on the paper.

(in reply to cellogrrlMK)

Post #: 7

RE: From humiliation to degradation - 4/29/2005 9:58:22 PM

MemphisDsCouple

Posts: 146
Joined: 11/1/2004
From: Memphis, TN, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKite

Degradation is the process of lowering a person's rank, status, value, or worth – "de-grading" him – usually in someone else's eyes and often, thereby, in his own. This is how degradation may frequently lead to humiliation.

We see a well-defined difference between humiliation and degradation. The key words that we’d like to focus on are rank and status. Degradation makes the sub feel more submissive, there by increasing the power exchange dynamic.

That definition for "degradation" which you cite from sexuality.org matches perfectly Webster's definition of "degrade" (found here: http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=degrade ). While it is true that Webster's refers the us to "degrade/degrading" (same defintion/word in Webster's) in its first definition for "degradation", I think that is not the sense in which the word "degradation" is used in most d/s discussions. Rather, "degradation" is more often used to reference its second Webster's defintion (found here: http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=degradation ) namely, "2 a : decline to a low, destitute, or demoralized state".

A "decline to a low, destitute, or demoralized state" is rarely a stepping stone to anything desirable. To demoralize a submissive rarely creates anything positive in "the power exchange dynamic".

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKite

Humiliation is the process of lowering a person's pride, dignity, or self-esteem, often by encouraging him to see himself as foolish, contemptible, or worthless.

That sounds like more degradation. Especially, the "contemptible".

The sexuality.org author's definition of "humiliation" is only vaguely related to what Webster teaches us. Specifically, for a definition of the word "humiliation" Webster's refers us to the word "humble". I conclude, therefore, that "humiliation" is the act of making or becoming "humble". The first two perferred defintions for humble are: 1 : not proud or haughty : not arrogant or assertive; 2 : reflecting, expressing, or offered in a spirit of deference or submission (found here: http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=humble ). I think these are the definitions most often implied in the uses of the term "humiliation" in d/s discussions and terminology.

As you can see, becoming humble, learning humility can be a very valuable and productive thing for any of us in the proper time and place, and certainly a valuable lesson for a submissive in the context of how she interacts with her dominant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKite

We see a well-defined difference between humiliation and degradation.

Yes we do. A sensible dominant is well advised to learn the difference. One path is positive and the other negative.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKite

Degradation makes the sub feel more submissive, there by increasing the power exchange dynamic.

Instilling a feeling of being "destitute" is not the same thing as creating a feeling of heightened submission.

Creating a "demoralized state" does not make "the sub feel more submissive".

While it is true that the state of being that degradation creates may outwardly resemble willing submission, it is just as true that the resemblance you see is a facade.

Humility, on the other hand, is a personality trait often admired and complimented - whether in the vanilla or the kinky frame of reference.

Postscript:

You are welcome to print or save this post for your own use. Please do not copy it to any public or semi-public forum (including email groups/lists) without my express permission. Thanks. All rights reserved. (I write this postscript because after-the-fact someone wrote to me to inform me that they had copied a prior post I wrote to another list. So, I thought I'd better clarify what my preference/policy is regarding use of what I write.)

B. (the male half of MemphisDsCouple)

(in reply to MrKite)

Post #: 8

RE: From humiliation to degradation - 4/29/2005 10:23:31 PM

EmeraldSlave2

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Joined: 1/1/2004
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My experiences go along Siamsa in that humiliation leads to degradation. I used to think that being degraded could not be healthy, but now with the Owner, I realize I can withstand degradation and come out the other side a very interesting and used slave.

Both humiliation and degradation are very personal intimate acts for me, and thus I find it nearly impossible to communication in words what will or will not humiliate me. It simply takes KNOWING me, knowing my buttons, pushing them, and me KNOWING you are pushing them for that very purpose.

It's not easy to do for me, things that humiliate most people are things that I luxuriate and wallow in.

But it is possible, and for those who can know how, it allows me to be degraded, it allows me to see past my ego, dig deep into who I am, and forces me to find that shred of hollowness and face it head on.

The dom who finds my blushing amusing and calls me a dirty slut has no idea what he's doing. The dom who calls me over, looks me dead in the eye, tells me to put my arms up and asks how I'm feeling is someone who understands.

What's the difference? Beyond intuition I don't know.

(in reply to MemphisDsCouple)

Post #: 9

RE: From humiliation to degradation - 4/29/2005 10:37:34 PM

cellogrrlMK

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So I THINK what I'm seeing in the responses so far is that degradation is the "bad" (for lack of a better term) part of this combination, or maybe 1. I'm not defining it exactly the right way or 2. I'm a sick fuck

or 3. both 1.and 2.

I'm looking forward to seeing more responses, and thanks to those who have posted so far.

cello

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 10

RE: From humiliation to degradation - 4/30/2005 4:20:53 AM

LadyAngelika

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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

What do you give or receive that changes or increases the differential of rank or status? What widens that gap between Dom and sub that increases your libido? Is it words or actions?

First of all, I wouldn't say that widening the gap between Domme & sub increases my libido. But that's me. I think I understand what you are trying to get at though. I just don't see it that way.

Humiliation can be an effective form of power exchange. It can also be just plain mean. It all depends on the intent and how it is done. It can have the effect of belittling such as what happens when one just bellows out a series of curse names at someone (of course making the Dom/me look like a potty mouthed moron). It can also have the effect of making someone feel safe in their place.

I am a big fan of humiliation play to be honest. I just love the mind fuck. But I don't particularly need to do anything that has to do with rank or status lowering, what you refer to as degradation. I guess that part isn't particularly appealing to me. Then again, I get off on having a high status man submit to me.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 4/30/2005 4:25:23 AM >

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to MrKite)

Post #: 11

RE: From humiliation to degradation - 4/30/2005 10:32:32 AM

MastersSunshine

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In my past Dom/sub relationship, i experienced both humiliation and degradation in the most severe of forms. What began as a very seemingly loving/caring D/s relationship, turned quite demoralizing and non-positive side going well over the fence of mental destabilization. When i asked that Asshole why he would ever CHOOSE to knowingly take a good/healthy beginning and destroy the person He so said He loved so much, the Assholes response was: "Because i can". For no other reason, someone i loved and trusted with my LIFE wholeheartedly, took me down a path and over an edge of which i recognize i never EVER wish to be thrown over again! Humiliation in a positive relationship, between two trusted people, is undescribably wonderful, as long as there is a fine line the two of You choose to never cross, where unhealthiness seeps in and mental/emotional permanent damage is caused. Those scars i will carry for the rest of my life but also serve as HUGE warning signs for helping me to NEVER allow such horrible emotional trauma to happen again! I will say, that aweful experience changed the path i am on, towards my new Master, who would NEVER "choose" to harm me in ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM! Thus, my outcome of a horribly traumatizing experience, happens to have taught me huge lessons in love/life/submissision and realism. I know now where MY limits are in my mind and soul and therefore, am more enhanced and ready for what i do "desire and need" to continue to grow and flourish in the lifestyle choices i've made. I will say, many submissives aren't as lucky as i have been, but i do hope that what i can contribute from my bad experiences with the Asshole in question, other submissives will create and LISTEN to their own gut instincts and warning flags and run like hell from whoever is attempting to harm them. I myself, love to live close to an edge and that is what i crave, but please remember, there IS a DIFFERENCE between HEALTHY AND UNHEALTHY humiliation and/or degradation. If you choose to skip down that twisted path, make sure its with someone that CARES ABOUT YOU! (humiliation/degradation should NEVER be a long term excersize, in my own opinion!)

GOOD LUCK TO YOU ALL!

sunshine

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 12

RE: From humiliation to degradation - 4/30/2005 3:10:54 PM

kisshou

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Joined: 2/11/2005
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What widens that gap between Dom and sub that increases your libido? Is it words or actions?

forced nudity, sitting in a lower position, being spoken to in a certain tone of voice, for me it is all about ACTION :)

(in reply to MrKite)

Post #: 13

RE: From humiliation to degradation - 4/30/2005 4:55:18 PM

BlkTallFullfig

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Joined: 6/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MastersSunshine
What began as a very seemingly loving/caring D/s relationship, turned quite demoralizing and non-positive side going well over the fence of mental destabilization. When i asked that Asshole why he would ever CHOOSE to knowingly take a good/healthy beginning and destroy the person

This is my dilemma with humiliation and degradation, and I'm sorry I cannot divorce the two, though think degradation is definitely worse long term for the soul, and I'm not entirely comfortable with it.

quote:

what i crave, but please remember, there IS a DIFFERENCE between HEALTHY AND UNHEALTHY humiliation and/or degradation. If you choose to skip down that twisted path, make sure its with someone that CARES ABOUT YOU!
sunshine

I agree there is a difference, and how will your owner/Master determine the line?
Having said that, I would say that forcing your sub to repeatedly wear ridiculous things/or not wear something she likes to wear, calling her out of her name, making her understand she is never to sit at eye level with you, unless you are in public or you (master) order otherwise; she's never to speak without first asking permission; she should only direct you as Master or Sir in public; she should greet you in whatever (if any) outfit you deem apropriate when you come home, and immediately sit on the floor to remove Master's shoes, before master directs her next move, criticising her as inadequate, etc, etc.
My problem with humiliation/degradation, it affects the psyche, so careful and watch for signs of such effect.
It is my position that a good symbiotic relationship should never involve the breakdown of another's spirit. Ramble over, hope it makes sense to you. M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to MastersSunshine)

Post #: 14

RE: From humiliation to degradation - 4/30/2005 5:39:37 PM

ShiftedJewel

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Joined: 12/2/2004
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quote:

My problem with humiliation/degradation, it affects the psyche, so careful and watch for signs of such effect.
It is my position that a good symbiotic relationship should never involve the breakdown of another's spirit.

My thoughts exactly. I just cannot get into degrading or humiliating another person... been in those shoes and it sucks. I believe that there are too many other ways to "remind" a submissive/slave of their "role" in the relationship.

Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

Post #: 15

RE: From humiliation to degradation - 4/30/2005 6:20:05 PM

MrKite

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Joined: 3/11/2005
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Perhaps I should correct a misunderstanding. I guess in my original post I was obtuse and for that I apologize. When we refer to degradation we mean as a medium to get her in the sub mind set. Examples of this are leading her on a leash, calling her dirty names i.e. slut and whore, forcing her to lick my boots. These are things we do during a scene and I was asking for examples of this kind of thing.

I would also like to take this opportunity to correct the incorrect impression of us, that some may have assumed about us. Our relationship is very positive and supportive. The acts of degradation (as we call it) are used only in play and are a turn on for us.

Thanks to all and sorry about the confusion.

_____________________________

If it feels good, do it.

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

Post #: 16

RE: From humiliation to degradation - 4/30/2005 6:52:49 PM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

I would also like to take this opportunity to correct the incorrect impression of us, that some may have assumed about us. Our relationship is very positive and supportive. The acts of degradation (as we call it) are used only in play and are a turn on for us.

I actually didn't see anything wrong in your original post to be honest, nor did I get a bad impression of either of you. Because other people don't understand your kink, you shouldn't need to justify what it is that you do.

Humiliation is a touchy subject because many people have been victims of abuse. But in the end, to say that inflicting physical pain is ok but emotional pain is wrong is pretty hypocritical. That said, everyone has the right to say "that's not for me".

On the other hand, I think many people here posted something along the lines of "it's not for me", without saying that what you were doing was wrong – which is nice to see here for a change! They also voiced some concerns about humiliation going to far (which I do share with them). If you whip someone too hard, you can see the results immediately. If you go over the line with humiliation and/or degradation, you probably will not see the results right away.

So let me give you both officially a warm welcome to the boards. I hope you will feel at ease posting your queries and perspectives here. I'm looking forward to hearing more from both you and cello.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to MrKite)

Post #: 17

RE: From humiliation to degradation - 4/30/2005 11:23:15 PM

MsSilvie

Posts: 248
Joined: 2/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

quote:

ORIGINAL: MastersSunshine
What began as a very seemingly loving/caring D/s relationship, turned quite demoralizing and non-positive side going well over the fence of mental destabilization. When i asked that Asshole why he would ever CHOOSE to knowingly take a good/healthy beginning and destroy the person

This is my dilemma with humiliation and degradation, and I'm sorry I cannot divorce the two, though think degradation is definitely worse long term for the soul, and I'm not entirely comfortable with it.

quote:

what i crave, but please remember, there IS a DIFFERENCE between HEALTHY AND UNHEALTHY humiliation and/or degradation. If you choose to skip down that twisted path, make sure its with someone that CARES ABOUT YOU!
sunshine

I agree there is a difference, and how will your owner/Master determine the line?

I agree very much with what is being said along this line. In my experience, humiliation and degradation are potentially far worse for a relationship than most people recognize. I'm not talking about something light hearted and done in private. In a relationship where one party is regularly degrading and humiliating the other to where it really hurts, even though it may fulfill a need at the time, how easy is it get back to being two adults who love and support each other? If I've spent the evening treating a submissive as a worthless, pathetic object, can we really sit down the next night and discuss refinancing the house or a change in jobs on equal terms?

In order to effectively do really heavy humiliation or degradation, you almost need to have some emotional distance. Which is why I think a lot of people approach proDommes about doing this kind of activity. You don't have to worry about having a relationship outside bdsm with a professional.

I've done what I would call pretty heavy degradation play. It was not an overall good experience for me, partly because I think I am probably too empathetic, and partly because I found myself losing that empathy. Although bdsm is a lot about leaving your comfort zone, this was uncomfortable in ways that I felt were somewhat dangerous.

Sometimes, people choose to do something unsafe, with an understanding of the risks involved. While degradation and humiliation can satisfy a need, there frequently can be a really high cost involved in the long run.

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

Post #: 18

RE: From humiliation to degradation - 4/30/2005 11:36:36 PM

BlkTallFullfig

Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrKite
I would also like to take this opportunity to correct the incorrect impression of us, that some may have assumed about us. Our relationship is very positive and supportive. The acts of degradation (as we call it) are used only in play and are a turn on for us.

I'm sorry if my post came accross that way. I don't have a negative impression of you at all; I guess I was worried about the focus on degradation, and am not entirely comfortable with that concept;
I am completely comfortable with your calling her whatever you'd like, and your making sub do/say humiliating things to get the pecking order clear pre/during playtime; another good practice is to talk about the scene at later times and get a feel for how it was for her; I've had an experience where a sub showed great interest in humiliation during play, but he would than carry it with him and ask if I really meant it afterwords; so I don't think heavy humiliation is good for fragile egos.. M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 4/30/2005 11:39:30 PM >

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to MrKite)

Post #: 19

RE: From humiliation to degradation - 4/30/2005 11:42:35 PM

cellogrrlMK

Posts: 672
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I actually didn't see anything wrong in your original post to be honest, nor did I get a bad impression of either of you. Because other people don't understand your kink, you shouldn't need to justify what it is that you do.

Humiliation is a touchy subject because many people have been victims of abuse. But in the end, to say that inflicting physical pain is ok but emotional pain is wrong is pretty hypocritical. That said, everyone has the right to say "that's not for me".

I want to thank everyone again for their input to this thread and agree with LadyAngelika about it being nice for a change

.

Like MrKite said, we don't practice these things regularly. I think maybe my own personal definition of the two might be "off" from others' conceptions of them.

For me, humiliation is something that is embarrassing. I am not going to go into what I personally find embarrassing, I only know that there is no way I can bring myself to do anything that would be humiliating to me.

For me, degradation doesn't have the negative connotations it seems to have for others. Degradation (for me anyway) simply emphasizes the difference in the rank between Master (or Mistress as the case may be) and slave. No, I'm not a lowly piece of shit, and he has never called me that, or any kind of name calling other than "slut" with varying adjectives. He has never called me "worthless" or anything hurtful along those lines, and frankly I don't think he could even if he wanted to (well, he would never want to, I know him that well)

. Watch, now he'll come on the board and call me a worthless fat bitch LOL (just kidding)

So I guess my definition, or what I consider degradation to be, isn't the proper term for what I am trying to describe, which I can't think of any other way. I feel kind of bad that the original post went up now. It wasn't what we were getting at at all.

cello

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 20

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