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"Buying the War" - 4/26/2007 4:46:56 AM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		I have not been one to put the media on slap-doI wn for the lead up to the war.  Having been abroad when it started to snowball and for the initial invasion and stages of the war, I was privy to news coverage that was far more legitmate than what I think was being shown over here, but I have always maintained that the information, if you really wanted it, was always at your fingertips.

Last night I watched a really interesting program on PBS (you can watch it online here :  http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/btw/watch.html  )

Bill Moyers presented role of the American media outlets in the lead up to the war.  I am going to re-watch it this evening, but it has caused me to go back and rethink my 'get out of jail free' card for the media's culpability.

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta
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RE: "Buying the War" - 4/26/2007 5:30:25 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		based on what we were told- we felt we had no other choice- that we were in fact going to rescue the world.

many of us were hesitant- but we beleived we had the best inteligence anywhere.

in fact we were 1st viewed as liberators.

but over the years- the total control- of the information, and other factors raised questions.

our original inent was tru to the cause. i think i can speak for many on the initial opinion.

incidently- the night the war started- they shut San francisco down.  at most it get 3 seconds airtime- nothing even close to what indepenedent media showed.

i dont rule out a silver lining to the war. that being access to oil. i am resentful that i was lied to, and that big oil posts the biggest profits per any corporation in history.

i got a bit of a toungue lashing by a buddy in EU, i replied- if that is the case- shut off all your power for 6 mons like the Amish do- and THEN tell me im selfish.

also- i dont buy that fact that we cant simply go home.  in a way we traded tiawan for iraq.

(in reply to puella)
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RE: "Buying the War" - 4/26/2007 8:03:32 AM   
cuffed4gangbangs


Posts: 3
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

based on what we were told- we felt we had no other choice- that we were in fact going to rescue the world.

Which was the entire point of the documentary! The press was fed the lies and spin of the administration, and simply vomited it as truth. With the sole exception of Knight/ Ridder, that is

many of us were hesitant- but we beleived we had the best inteligence anywhere.

And hey, it would be painless, nothing but a few dead Iraqi's, and who cares, they are only Iraqi's, right?

in fact we were 1st viewed as liberators.

LOL............for about 15 min!! If folks (not to mention bush and the neo-cons)  read any history books, everyone will see how the "host" county treats occupying armies

but over the years- the total control- of the information, and other factors raised questions.

If someone keeps repeating "the sky is purple pokadots", after 4+ years, its amazing that there are still folks who think its so. They are called right wing republicans, by the way

our original inent was tru to the cause. i think i can speak for many on the initial opinion.

Yes, one certainly can speak for fox news that we came to "find weapons of mass destruction". 'No wait, it was to "liberate Iraq".....NO, it was "so Iraqi can have free elections"...'No, wait ...its to kill Bin Laden", No, its............"

incidently- the night the war started- they shut San francisco down.  at most it get 3 seconds airtime- nothing even close to what indepenedent media showed.

thats interesting, wonder why..........?

i dont rule out a silver lining to the war. that being access to oil. i am resentful that i was lied to, and that big oil posts the biggest profits per any corporation in history.

Of course.....God forbid that red blooded Americans should have to give up their birthright of cheap gas and the right roll their  SUV's!!!!

i got a bit of a toungue lashing by a buddy in EU, i replied- if that is the case- shut off all your power for 6 mons like the Amish do- and THEN tell me im selfish.

There are always choices. We can take the money we are pissing away there and do a manhattan-like project to gain energy independance in 10 years

also- i dont buy that fact that we cant simply go home.  in a way we traded tiawan for iraq.

Churchill  quote "Treaties are the bridges to War"

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: "Buying the War" - 4/26/2007 9:07:50 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		I had a hard time getting past the initial stance that this was a special case where the media abandoned their usual high standards and for once failed to ask the hard hitting questions that would have exposed the rare instance of politicians lying.

Politicians lie about everyting, and far too often the media waits untl facts are forced down their throats....  This 'documentary' came across as a self serving and revisionist 'Who knew???' apologia

(in reply to cuffed4gangbangs)
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RE: "Buying the War" - 4/26/2007 9:15:43 AM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Did you get past that initial statement? (Which I do not recall hearing being stated, but.. okay).  I think the program, as a whole was pretty expository and did no favors for the NY Times and a few other media outlets.

In the end, I still feel that even without these media big boys, the actual facts, were  you at all interested in hearing them, were presnted, and often in the global news forums.  That alone should have caused more citizens to look into the facts behind the news stories.  Chalabi and the Iraqi National Congress, for instance were completely outed WELL before we invaded ...

< Message edited by puella -- 4/26/2007 9:16:19 AM >

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: "Buying the War" - 4/26/2007 10:22:22 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		in the beginning i supported the war.

the US as i knew it- was clinton like- we once set the standard for human rights and the rule of law.

the average joe in teh streets has very little say so in US affairs- and i mean voters in the USA.

at times- some act like Americans invented greed- well greed has been amonst humanity since the beginning of time.

a good idea will stnad on its own weight.

keep in mind that bush 2- is nowhere near the man that bush 1 was/is.

to respond to the OP-= specifically- I have CANCELLED my cable. this means cnn, fox, nbc, abc, cbs-=all of it.

it costs $2 a day- and programming is so crappy- tht i barely miss having it.

i do not drive an SUV.

also- what a govt will do to other ppls it will do to its own ppl. i truly believe that.

(in reply to puella)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: "Buying the War" - 4/26/2007 11:13:32 AM   
selfbnd411


Posts: 598
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: offline 		I supported the war because there's oil there.  We need it.  It's perfectly legitimate for a nation to do what it must to secure its economic and strategic interests.  I never bought into the idea of spreading democracy to a region of the world that has no liberal democratic tradition.  There never was a desert enlightenment.  There never was an Arab John Locke.

I honestly thought that the administration was as smart as people thought it was.  I thought they were only using the old sop of "spreading peace and democracy to the Middle East" to get the support of most of the people, who really don't have what it takes to comprehend foreign affairs.  I thought they would simply secure the oil fields and put the country in the hands of a secular military dictator.  Military dictatorship is not necessarily a bad thing--Turkey became a progressive, democratic, and secular country under the dictatorship of Kemal Ataturk.  Instead, we found that Bush had a messianic complex.  He was going to change the world even if it meant he would put thousands of American soldiers on the cross.

So did I buy the war?  No.  Did I support it?  Yes.  Did Bush himself buy the war?  Sadly, yes.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: "Buying the War" - 4/26/2007 11:36:15 AM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline
quote:

In the end, I still feel that even without these media big boys, the actual facts, were you at all interested in hearing them, were presnted, and often in the global news forums. That alone should have caused more citizens to look into the facts behind the news stories.

The flaw here is that nobody cared about the facts -- they just wanted to get the boogie man responsible for 9/11, and when it was clear after Tora Bora that Bin Laden had gotten away the administration simply switched it's tune from saying "Osama Osama Osama" to "Saddam Saddam Saddam". If you can't get one boogie man, just go after another who should be easier to find.

Anyone who didn't change direction wasn't a patriot, and even if the hard questions had been asked more loudly and answered truthfully nobody (in the US anyway) cared. Rumsfeld was a rock star and Dubya was a strong leader, so everyone had to hop on the band wagon! If you didn't want to be led eagerly down the wrong path, you were just a dirty rotten Frenchie!

< Message edited by happypervert -- 4/26/2007 11:38:04 AM >

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RE: "Buying the War" - 4/26/2007 12:27:31 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Puella,

The CNN bloke laid it bare when he talked of Fox News being a competitor. That tells the story - they're businesses, driven by business aims.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: "Buying the War" - 4/26/2007 5:02:37 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		O'Reilly is shooting Moyers down right now.

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to puella)
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RE: "Buying the War" - 4/26/2007 5:39:49 PM   
minnetar


Posts: 1272
Joined: 4/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

O'Reilly is shooting Moyers down right now.


Sanity,
Please oh please don't tell me you are an O'Reilly fan otherwise you just lost all your credibility with me lol.

minnetar

(in reply to Sanity)
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RE: "Buying the War" - 4/26/2007 5:43:39 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Hey, give Bill O'Reilly credit where it's due. It's takes a lot of guts to admit to your Conservative and Crazy Fundamentalist audience that you enjoy reaming your ass with a dildo.

A lot his viewers might have issues with that, but once it was released, to his credit he didn't deny it.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to minnetar)
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RE: "Buying the War" - 4/26/2007 6:57:31 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar
Sanity,
Please oh please don't tell me you are an O'Reilly fan otherwise you just lost all your credibility with me lol.

minnetar



Are there any good reasons why should I care what you or some guy who calls himself 'farglebargle' thinks of me?

Yes, I am an O'Reilly fan, even if I think he's got a little bit of some kind of dementia coming on. I don't agree with everything that he says, and I don't always watch him, but he's got 'The View' beat all to hell.

There are plenty of reasons why he's number one in the ratings.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 4/26/2007 6:58:05 PM >

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to minnetar)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: "Buying the War" - 4/26/2007 7:08:49 PM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

I have not been one to put the media on slap-doI wn for the lead up to the war.  Having been abroad when it started to snowball and for the initial invasion and stages of the war, I was privy to news coverage that was far more legitmate than what I think was being shown over here, but I have always maintained that the information, if you really wanted it, was always at your fingertips.

Last night I watched a really interesting program on PBS (you can watch it online here :  http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/btw/watch.html  )

Bill Moyers presented role of the American media outlets in the lead up to the war.  I am going to re-watch it this evening, but it has caused me to go back and rethink my 'get out of jail free' card for the media's culpability.


I'm not sure if you asked a question, however, if one were asked...I should think a better question might be (not attempting to hijack...please forgive)....if you aren't from here ("here" being the USA)...what is your (world) opinion as to how this whole thing is being percieved.

I suspect no one has a great opinion of George...but truly, we're a bit isolated.  In all our talk about freedom, access to accurate information and such....our press does indeed tell us what we "need" to hear.

What is the outside worlds' opinion?

It would appear that, from a travelers point of view, Iran's populace loves Americans, while the Iranian government does not.  Saudi Arabia loves our money, but in their ire, they pull back.  Kuwait of course thinks our shit smells like roses, and of course, Syria (among others) only loves Exxon.

Is this all going to a valid result...or is it at least as fucked up as we all think it is?

< Message edited by Griswold -- 4/26/2007 7:14:05 PM >

(in reply to puella)
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RE: "Buying the War" - 4/26/2007 7:24:34 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Pa Hunk, me too but we got Saddam and it's time to get out!
WTF are they doing, planning on a ten year occupation?
And we need to get all of our Troops out of S. Korea too, 54 years is insane!
We can't afford this shit! In a few years thousands of miles of highways will need to be replaced!

(in reply to Griswold)
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RE: "Buying the War" - 4/26/2007 7:27:54 PM   
minnetar


Posts: 1272
Joined: 4/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar
Sanity,
Please oh please don't tell me you are an O'Reilly fan otherwise you just lost all your credibility with me lol.

minnetar



Are there any good reasons why should I care what you or some guy who calls himself 'farglebargle' thinks of me?

Yes, I am an O'Reilly fan, even if I think he's got a little bit of some kind of dementia coming on. I don't agree with everything that he says, and I don't always watch him, but he's got 'The View' beat all to hell.

There are plenty of reasons why he's number one in the ratings.


Sanity there was no need to be condescending with your opinion.  i believe that O'Reilly doesn't deal with facts when directly faced with them.  Olbermann continually shows that with clips showing he says one thing and then another.  i am sorry but he isn't honest with how he states his opinions and then later changes those facts.  This isn't an insult to you but who you admire so i would appreciate the same in return as i have respected your opinion.

minnetar

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: "Buying the War" - 4/26/2007 7:35:46 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

There are plenty of reasons why he's number one in the ratings.



In the land of Idiots the one on the radio is king?

sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: "Buying the War" - 4/26/2007 8:00:01 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:


There are plenty of reasons why he's number one in the ratings.



http://www.usatoday.com/life/television/nielsen-more.htm

He's not even on the list, much less close to #1.

Top cable shows
Rank Show title Network Viewers in millions
1. NBA All-Star Game TNT 6.8
2. NBA Tip-off TNT 5.1
3. NBA Sat. Night TNT 4.8
4. WWE Raw (Thurs, 9 p.m.) USA 4.5
5. Ned Declassified Nickelodeon 4.2
6 Naked Brothers Band Nickelodeon 4.0
7. WWE Raw (Mon, 9 p.m.) USA 3.8
8 Cory in the House Disney 3.6
9. Drake & Josh (Sat, 9 p.m.) Nickelodeon 3.4
* Hannah Montana Disney 3.4
11 Drake & Josh (Sun, 7 p.m.) Nickelodeon 3.3
* I Love New York VH1 3.3
* SpongeBob Squarepants Nickelodeon 3.3
* The Parent Trap Disney 3.3
15 Psych USA 3.2
* Monk USA 3.2

Fucking MONK is there...

And apparently O'Reilly is way behind SpongeBob Squarepants. Make of that what you will...



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sanity)
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RE: "Buying the War" - 4/27/2007 2:26:04 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		That's just stupid. You compare apples to apples - who doesn't know that. But if you really need it that oversimplified, here you go; The O'Reilly Factor is #1 in Cable News

< Message edited by Sanity -- 4/27/2007 2:38:32 PM >

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: "Buying the War" - 4/27/2007 2:31:55 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		some shit is just so fuckin hopeless-----

Nevertheless, talking heads on radio and tv are rarely clued into reality, or workable living.


Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 20
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