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Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/27/2007 2:34:08 PM   
onmykneesforhim


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Wednesday, April 18, 2007
When mass killers meet armed resistance.

It took place at a university in Virginia. A student with a grudge, an
immigrant, pulled a gun and went on a shooting spree. It wasn't Virginia
Tech at all. It was the Appalachian School of Law in Grundy, not far
away. You can easily drive from the one school to the other, just take a
trip down Route 460 through Tazewell.

It was January 16, 2002 when Peter Odighizuwa came to campus. He had
been suspended due to failing grades. Odighizuwa was angry and waving a
gun calling on students to "come get me". The students, seeing the gun,
ran. A shooting spree started almost immediately.  In seconds Odighizuwa
had killed the school dean, a professor and one student. Three other
students were shot as well, one in the chest, one in the stomach and one
in the throat.

Many students heard the shots. Two who did were Mikael Gross and Tracy
Bridges. Mikael was outside the school having just returned to campus
from lunch when he heard the shots. Tracy was inside attending class.
Both immediately ran to their cars. Each had a handgun locked in the
vehicle.

Bridges pulled a .357 Magnum pistol and he later said he was prepared to
shoot to kill if necessary. He and Gross both approached Odighizuwa at
the same time from different directions. Both were pointing their
weapons at him. Bridges yelled for Odighizuwa to drop his weapon. When
the shooter realized they had the drop on him he threw his weapon down.
A third student, unarmed, Ted Besen, approached the killer and was
physically attacked.
But Odighizuwa was now disarmed. The three students were able to
restrain him and held him for the police. Odighizuwa is now in prison
for the murders he committed. His killing spree ended when he faced two
students with weapons. There would be no further victims that day,
thanks to armed resistance.

You wouldn't know much about that though. Do you wonder why? The media,
though it widely reported the attack left out the fact that Bridges and
Gross were armed. Most simply reported that the gunman was jumped and
subdued by other students. That two of those students were now armed
didn't get a mention.

James Eaves-Johnson wrote about this fact one week later in The Daily
Iowan.  He wrote: "A Lexus-Nexis search revealed 88 stories on the
topic, of which only two mentioned that either Bridges or Gross was
armed.
"This 2002 article noted "This was a very public shooting with a lot of
media coverage." But the media left out information showing how two
students with firearms ended the killing spree.

He also mentioned a second incident. And while I had read many articles
on this shooting for an article I wrote about school bullying not a
single one mentioned the role that a firearm played in stopping it.
Until today I didn't know the full story.

Luke Woodham was a troubled teen. He felt no one really liked him. In
1997 he murdered his mother and put on a trench coat. He filled the
pockets with ammunition and took a handgun to the Pearl High School in
Pearl, Mississippi. In rapid succession killed two students and wounded
seven others.

He had the incident planned out. He would start shooting students and
continue until he heard police sirens in the distance. That would allow
him time to get in his car and leave campus. From there he intended to
go to the nearby Pearl Junior High School and start shooting again. How
it would end was not clear. Perhaps he would kill himself or perhaps the
police would finally catch up with him and kill him. Either way a lot
more people were going to get shot and die.

What Woodham hadn't planned for was the actions of Assistant Principal
Joel Myrick. Myrick heard the gun shots. He couldn't have a handgun in
the school. But he did keep one locked in his vehicle in the parking
lot. He ran outside and retrieved the gun. As Myrick headed back toward
the school Woodham was in his vehicle headed for his next intended
target. Myrick aimed his gun at the shooter. The teen crashed his car
when he saw the gun. Myrick approached the car and held a gun to the
killer who surrendered immediately. There would be no further victims
that day, thanks to armed resistance.

So you didn't know about that. Neither did I until today. Eaves-Johnson
wrote that there were "687 articles on the school shooting in Pearl,
Miss. Of those, only 19 mentioned that" Myrick had used a gun to stop
Woodham "four-and-a-half minutes before police arrived."

Many people probably forgot about the shooting in Edinboro,
Pennsylvania. It was a school graduation dance that Andrew Wurst entered
to take out his anger on the school. First he shot teacher John Gillette
outside. He started shooting randomly inside the restaurant where the
240 students had gathered.

It was restaurant owner James Strand, armed with a shot gun, who
captured the shooter and held him for police. There would be no further
victims that day, thanks to armed resistance.

It was February 12th of this year that a young man entered the Trolley
Square Shopping Mall, in Salt Lake City. The mall was a self-declared
"gun free zone" forbidding patrons from carrying weapons. He wasn't
worried. In fact he appreciated knowing that his victims couldn't defend
themselves.

He opened fire even before he got inside killing his first victims
immediately outside the front door. As he walked down the mall hallway
he fired in all directions. Several more people were shot inside a card
store immediately inside the mall. The shooter moved on to the Pottery
Barns Kids store.

What he didn't know is that one patron of the mall, Kenneth Hammond, had
ignored the signs informing patrons they must be unarmed to enter. He
was a police officer but he was not on duty and he was not a police
officer for Salt Lake City. By all standards he was a civilian that day
and probably should have left his firearm in his vehicle.

It's a good thing he didn't. He was sitting in the mall with his wife
having dinner when he heard the shots. He told her to hide and to call
911 emergency services. He went to confront the gunman. The killer found
himself under gun fire much sooner than he anticipated.  From this point
on all his effort was to protect himself from Hammond, he had no time to
kill anyone else. Hammond was able to pin down the shooter until police
finally arrived and one of them shot the man to death. There would be no
further victims that day, thanks to armed resistance.

In each of these cases a killer is stopped the moment he faces armed
resistance. It is clear that in three of these cases the shooter
intended to continue his killing spree. In the fourth case, Andrew
Wurst, it is not immediately apparent whether he intended to keep
shooting or not since he was apprehended by the restaurant owner leaving
the scene.

Three of these cases involved armed resistance by students, faculty or
civilians. In one case the armed resistance was from an off-duty police
officer in a city where he had no legal authority and where he was
carrying his weapon in violation of the mall's gun free policy.

What would have happened if these people waited for the police? In three
cases the shooters were apprehended before the police arrived because of
armed civilians. At Trolley Square the shooter was kept busy by Hammond
until the police arrived. In all four cases the local police were the
Johnny-come-latelys.

Consider the horrific events at Virginia Tech. Again an armed man enters
a "gun free zone". He kills two victims and walks away long before the
police arrive. He spends two hours on campus, doing what is unknown. He
then enters another building on campus and begins shooting. He never
encounters a police officer during this. And all the students and
faculty present had apparently complied with the "no gun" policy of the
university. So no one stopped him. NO ONE STOPPED HIM! And when he
finished his shooting spree 32 people were dead. It was the killer who
ended the spree. He took his own life and when the police arrived all
they dealt with were the dead.

There were many further victims that day. The shooter never met with
armed resistance.

Labels: gun control
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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/27/2007 2:49:07 PM   
meatcleaver


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Boring. The has already been posted in one thread. If it justifies your toys fine but if you see guns as a solution to gun problems, you've got a problem. There were enough warning signs that Cho was dangerous but nothing was done. The real solutions to such problems is in the boring unheroic stuff that needs to happen much earlier in the game. If a situation comes to a shoot out, there has been a societal failure. I'm not saying all are preventable but there is something in the American culture that needs to be looked at and focusing on guns as the solution is imbecilic.

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/27/2007 3:03:41 PM   
popeye1250


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Yes, don't you think the Media would want people to know something like this?
Meatcleaver, if you don't want to carry a gun then don't.
No-one is "forcing" you to.

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/27/2007 3:10:15 PM   
MellowSir


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Bring back corporal punishment and hold parents more responsible, know your child's friends and families and if you have to have a gun, keep it out of reach and the ammo stored seperately.

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/27/2007 3:11:57 PM   
missturbation


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Whilst what happened in both those schools is a tragedy i do not believe everyone should be carrying a gun just in case someone pulls one on them. There are far too many trigger happy gun carriers around with licences  never mind just giving them to anyone.

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/27/2007 3:11:59 PM   
MellowSir


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And what would be wrong with a longer wait to buy one? Unless the person's in a hurry to go shoot someone?

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/27/2007 3:13:59 PM   
missturbation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MellowSir

Bring back corporal punishment and hold parents more responsible, know your child's friends and families and if you have to have a gun, keep it out of reach and the ammo stored seperately.


Violence breeds violence. Corporal punishment is no way the answer.
I'm making a bet here that you are not a parent either because you would know if you were that outside the family influences are far stronger on a child than inner family ones.

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/27/2007 3:15:23 PM   
MellowSir


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Well, in reply to missturbation, states that allowed concealed carry don't suddenly turn into the wild west. I don't think there will ever be a happy medium where only safe and sane people are allowed to have a gun. Borrowed, bought legally or not, stolen, we're stuck with'em....

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/27/2007 3:18:39 PM   
missturbation


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For me there is no happy medium just a solution. Do not allow members of the public to have guns.

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What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/27/2007 3:21:36 PM   
Jack45


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When waiting periods became fashionable there were lives lost, women's lives. I recall several cases one in Wisconsin where a woman had a court order of protection against her ex-husband. One day she went to a gunstore  and selected a self-defense firearm, the clerk told her that she could not take the firearm with her due to a waiting period of 5-days, so the gun stayed in the glass case. That very night her ex broke down her front door as she was on the phone with 911 dispatchers, the transcripts were horrifying, she and her daughter were butchered using a bayonet. If she had been able to bring her firearm home with her she may well have been alive today.
IF IT SAVES ONE LIFE: JUST SAY NO TO VICTIM DISARMAMENT.

Fed up with the totalitarians wanting to make YOU  helpless in the face of thugs and crazies?
Gun Owners of America


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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/27/2007 3:23:35 PM   
missturbation


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Horrible story but if she had been allowed to take the gun home it is quite possible that there would still have been a life lost - his when she shot him.

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If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/27/2007 3:34:48 PM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Horrible story but if she had been allowed to take the gun home it is quite possible that there would still have been a life lost - his when she shot him.

So it's better that two lives were lost because she was unable to protect herself and her daughter?

Yeah, that makes sense.

~stef

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/27/2007 3:41:28 PM   
missturbation


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I didn't say it was better in any shape or form. All i did was point out that there may still have been life lost.
In a perfect world this man would have been kept away from her by whatever means the law could and then there would have been no lives lost.
However the system failed her and i can understand why she would choose to buy a gun although i dont agree with it.
Any loss of life is a tragedy.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/27/2007 3:46:44 PM   
Sicarius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Horrible story but if she had been allowed to take the gun home it is quite possible that there would still have been a life lost - his when she shot him.


Well, rest assured that if some inverse of this story had occurred in my home (and for some reason I did not have any of my firearms present), I would realize that my only options for self defense would be to close to within point blank range of my attacker.  If I have a firearm, I can stand at a distance and challenge my attacker a single time to stand down and avoid violence.  If I am forced to rely on some other measure of self defense, I am aiming to kill without question because of the heightened risk to myself.  I own a wide variety of bladed weapons, including a competition-grade katana forged by Dragon Well in Asia.  I have seen the blade slice a stalk of bamboo nearly seven inches thick at a perfect 45 degree angle, and have very little doubt that it would produce much the same result in a human being.

Just because you believe that you should lay down, show your throat, and allow yourself to be killed by an assailant does not mean that you have even the least right to tell me that I should stand by and watch as my family is murdered.  I cannot imagine how horrible it must be to be afraid to protect even yourself ... even a child.  I try to be respectful of most positions and viewpoints, but I honestly find the mentality that it is better to allow a young child to be hacked apart by a mad man than to advocate armed resistance quite disgusting.

-Sicarius

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/27/2007 3:50:58 PM   
missturbation


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Just because you believe that you should lay down, show your throat, and allow yourself to be killed by an assailant does not mean that you have even the least right to tell me that I should stand by and watch as my family is murdered.
Show me where i said that?
I cannot imagine how horrible it must be to be afraid to protect even yourself ... even a child.  I try to be respectful of most positions and viewpoints, but I honestly find the mentality that it is better to allow a young child to be hacked apart by a mad man than to advocate armed resistance quite disgusting.
Show me where i said that?

Before you judge my mentality because i disagree with fire arms read what has actually been put not what you are choosing to see. My only comment was that there may have still been loss of life. The woman in question been armed may not have prevented death to any one of them.

< Message edited by missturbation -- 4/27/2007 3:53:07 PM >


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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/27/2007 3:51:08 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Horrible story but if she had been allowed to take the gun home it is quite possible that there would still have been a life lost - his when she shot him.


So, checking understanding here, what you are saying is that someone is going to die anyway, so best to be the person originally intended, since it is the higher road to sit there and take it?  Please don't ask Me to smile as I get shot to death, because I know I am not the one being violent.  That attitude does not leave Me any less dead.
For the record, I do not consider defense to be violence.  I consider it to be a way to prevent My death and further violence.  I did not encourage the shooter to come at Me with a gun, so I expect to have an even chance to defend Myself.
Please reread the OP.  Except in the final example, where the gunman was shot by police after they arrived, not one of the shooters was killed.  They were overcome or surrendered upon being challenged right back with another gun.  That means we now have a standoff, and this didn't exactly figure into the shooter's plans.    Lives were saved,...even the lives of the shooters, themselves. 
hmmmmmmmm...that should make you think, but I am not sure it will. 

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/27/2007 3:56:44 PM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I didn't say it was better in any shape or form. All i did was point out that there may still have been life lost.
In a perfect world this man would have been kept away from her by whatever means the law could and then there would have been no lives lost.

We don't, nor will we ever, live in this perfect world.  Applying 'perfect world' rules to the world we live in is pointless.
 
quote:

However the system failed her and i can understand why she would choose to buy a gun although i dont agree with it.

Any loss of life is a tragedy.

Oh good grief.  Some people have given up their right to share this planet with us.  He was just one of many such people.  Unfortunately, he's not the one who was killed.  The only tragedy here is that the wrong people are dead.

~stef

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/27/2007 3:56:47 PM   
Sicarius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Just because you believe that you should lay down, show your throat, and allow yourself to be killed by an assailant does not mean that you have even the least right to tell me that I should stand by and watch as my family is murdered.
Show me where i said that?
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
For me there is no happy medium just a solution. Do not allow members of the public to have guns.



How exactly do you presume to level the playing field against a 250 pound man looking to break into your home and rape you without the benefit of a gun?  How do you expect any woman to, and even most other men, for that matter?  By advocating a lack of every individual's ability to defend themselves with the only tool in the world that perfectly equalizes the lethal ability of every man and woman on this planet, you are effectively condoning surrender -- and slaughter.


quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
I cannot imagine how horrible it must be to be afraid to protect even yourself ... even a child.  I try to be respectful of most positions and viewpoints, but I honestly find the mentality that it is better to allow a young child to be hacked apart by a mad man than to advocate armed resistance quite disgusting.
Show me where i said that?
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
Horrible story but if she had been allowed to take the gun home it is quite possible that there would still have been a life lost - his when she shot him.



Seems to me that even when confronted by the horror of the story up above, you're still claiming that gun ownership should have been outlawed and that this woman should not have been able to purchase a gun.  If you want to clarify that point, be my guest ... but several other people have already laid into you for it, so I don't think it's just myself making that assumption.

-Sicarius

< Message edited by Sicarius -- 4/27/2007 4:01:12 PM >

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/27/2007 3:56:49 PM   
missturbation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

Horrible story but if she had been allowed to take the gun home it is quite possible that there would still have been a life lost - his when she shot him.


So, checking understanding here, what you are saying is that someone is going to die anyway, so best to be the person originally intended, since it is the higher road to sit there and take it?  Please don't ask Me to smile as I get shot to death, because I know I am not the one being violent.  That attitude does not leave Me any less dead.
Nope thats not what im saying and nor will i. Reread what i put and you will see that i only stated that the woman having a gun may not have prevented loss of life.
For the record, I do not consider defense to be violence.  I consider it to be a way to prevent My death and further violence.  I did not encourage the shooter to come at Me with a gun, so I expect to have an even chance to defend Myself.
Did i say it was?
Please reread the OP.  Except in the final example, where the gunman was shot by police after they arrived, not one of the shooters was killed.  They were overcome or surrendered upon being challenged right back with another gun.  That means we now have a standoff, and this didn't exactly figure into the shooter's plans.    Lives were saved,...even the lives of the shooters, themselves. 
hmmmmmmmm...that should make you think, but I am not sure it will. 


The students shouldnt have been able to get their hands on guns in the first place. In this case the shooters stood down, but there was just as big a chance they may not have done. Not everything is as clear cut.

 

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: Armed resistance, Guns in school? - 4/27/2007 3:59:31 PM   
Sicarius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

The students shouldnt have been able to get their hands on guns in the first place. In this case the shooters stood down, but there was just as big a chance they may not have done. Not everything is as clear cut.


And if those student gun owners had been anything like myself, they would not have hesitated to shoot him dead where he stood if he failed to comply with their challenge to surrender and put an end to his senseless violence and bloodshed.

-Sicarius

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