RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America

RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America (Full Version)

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lockedaway -> RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America (4/29/2007 11:07:42 AM)
Let's see, banning guns, banning cars for personal use in certain conditions, hmmmmm...aren't you the guy that I said should find a Latin American country that would enjoy your kind of oppression? By damn....it IS you. How have you been, sport?

lockedaway -> RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America (4/29/2007 11:13:46 AM)
lolol popeye! The hippy lettuce...I haven't heard that one before. [:D]

caitlyn -> RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America (4/29/2007 11:32:19 AM)
General response ... I think its problematic to support gun ownership in America. The law is the law, and it's up to the other side to make a supportable case to change it. Right now, they have nothing ... distorted middle-school level facts like, "countries with more guns, have more gun deaths" ... hypothetical comparisons to other cultures which may or may not have any value to their argument ... and when all else fails, they will call someone a cowboy or start talking about testicals. These tactics are used to draw people in, and by default give meaning to what currently has no meaning.

LadyEllen -> RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America (4/29/2007 12:37:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver .........................., I can only guess you are one of those people that think guns put spunk in your balls. The first decent argument as to why I shouldnt be permitted a gun. E

Zensee -> RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America (4/29/2007 2:50:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn General response ... I think its problematic to support gun ownership in America. The law is the law, and it's up to the other side to make a supportable case to change it. Right now, they have nothing ... distorted middle-school level facts like, "countries with more guns, have more gun deaths" ... hypothetical comparisons to other cultures which may or may not have any value to their argument ... and when all else fails, they will call someone a cowboy or start talking about testicals. These tactics are used to draw people in, and by default give meaning to what currently has no meaning. If by the LAW you mean the Second Amendment, that has yet to be established as a blanket permission for all people to carry any firearm, anywhere at any time. It is not even clear if the wording of that amendment was the one agreed to, the intent of the framers being so diverse, even contradictory. You cannot take sure refuge in a law so vague and controversial. Anyway, laws can change. I would like to see the facts and proofs you have for unregulated firearms making the USA a safer place. Until then you should refrain from accusing others of manipulation, distortion and emotionalism, those being the bulk of your own argument. Z.

meatcleaver -> RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America (4/29/2007 2:51:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lockedaway Let's see, banning guns, banning cars for personal use in certain conditions, hmmmmm...aren't you the guy that I said should find a Latin American country that would enjoy your kind of oppression? By damn....it IS you. How have you been, sport? Thinking about it, I wouldn't ban cars but I would do faster what is starting to be done now in progressive cities. Keep the cars to the perifery of the city and charge car owners the full amount for the damage to the environment and health they cause and make drivers pay the full amount for the roads they use rather than sudsidizing car use of roads through general taxation. Thinking about it I would do the same to guns rather than ban them. I would charge gun manufacturers the full amount for deaths, injuries, psychological damage, robberies and the extra policing needed because of their products.

meatcleaver -> RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America (4/29/2007 2:57:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Right now, they have nothing ... distorted middle-school level facts like, "countries with more guns, have more gun deaths" ... hypothetical comparisons to other cultures which may or may not have any value to their argument ... and when all else fails, they will call someone a cowboy or start talking about testicals. Your government starts wars by using distorted facts and making hypothetical comparisons between cultures that may or may not add value to their argument and when all else fails, they accuse countries of having no testicals. But then, that is always what John Wayne did in his movies.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America (4/29/2007 2:58:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver .........................., I can only guess you are one of those people that think guns put spunk in your balls. The first decent argument as to why I shouldnt be permitted a gun. E Speaking as someone who has has your interests at heart LadyE I think you should avoid said substance wherever it kums from. Spunk in UK speech does not have its dictionary meaning as it does in the US. Why is that then. ?

petdave -> RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America (4/29/2007 3:31:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Thinking about it I would do the same to guns rather than ban them. I would charge gun manufacturers the full amount for deaths, injuries, psychological damage, robberies and the extra policing needed because of their products. You must be quite good at math to calculate a number like that. Now would gun manufacturers be able to offset the extra policing with the benefits their products provide the police forces? What about the military... do you have a number worked out for the benefits that a modern, self-sustaining domestic small-arms manufacturer provides the nation during times of war? What about ammunition manufacturers? Do they get a free pass? After all, it's rare that the gun itself kills someone- more often it's the bullet. Seems really complercated to me. [&o] How 'bout we just make individuals responsible for their own actions instead?

meatcleaver -> RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America (4/29/2007 3:50:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: petdave quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Thinking about it I would do the same to guns rather than ban them. I would charge gun manufacturers the full amount for deaths, injuries, psychological damage, robberies and the extra policing needed because of their products. You must be quite good at math to calculate a number like that. Now would gun manufacturers be able to offset the extra policing with the benefits their products provide the police forces? As Britain proved, without guns at large in society the police wouldn't need guns so I would make the gun manufacturers supply the police and other enforcement services with free weapons. quote: ORIGINAL: petdave What about the military... do you have a number worked out for the benefits that a modern, self-sustaining domestic small-arms manufacturer provides the nation during times of war? What about ammunition manufacturers? Do they get a free pass? After all, it's rare that the gun itself kills someone- more often it's the bullet. Seems really complercated to me. [&o] How 'bout we just make individuals responsible for their own actions instead? Hell no, individuals couldn't cover the costs anyway. If some individual shot up a liquer store for a few dollars, it is hardly likely they will have enough money to cover the costs of the damage they did. In fact I would charge the gun manufacturers for the cost of keeping an armed robber in prison. If tobacco manufacturers can be sued for the damage their products cause so can gun manufacturers. Why make a difference?

cloudboy -> RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America (4/29/2007 6:51:27 PM)
Facts and reason aren't in play in the gun debate largely because the gun culture of the US is a akin to a secular religion. One need only see the words of the VA governor after the shooting to realize this.

Dtesmoac -> RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America (4/29/2007 8:06:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave This point has been answered by numerous posters. Given that he went "off his trolley" the lack of weapons to oppose him was a major problem. NO ? Did the fact that he didn't need to reload make a difference because f the size of the magazine? I agree in the US you can not turn back the gun issue but excatly how many bullets are required to stop a burglar or a mugger. There really is an element of boys with their toys as far as guns go in the US. There just a bit more deadly than a scalextric set though !!

caitlyn -> RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America (4/29/2007 8:18:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zensee I would like to see the facts and proofs you have for unregulated firearms making the USA a safer place. Until then you should refrain from accusing others of manipulation, distortion and emotionalism, those being the bulk of your own argument. I don't need to have facts or show proof of anything. The current situation works fine for me and I don't want to change it. The USA a safer place ... who knows. I could never prove it, don't need to, and wouldn't want to, and I doubt that you could prove it to be untrue, which you will need to, in order to get things changed. I'm safer, and will prove it to anyone that tries to do me harm. [;)] I will say that in my opinion, if you don't see a statement like, "countries with more guns, have more gun deaths" as a manipulation and distortion ... then I need never worry about the current situation changing. Again, my opinion.

meatcleaver -> RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America (4/30/2007 1:50:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn I will say that in my opinion, if you don't see a statement like, "countries with more guns, have more gun deaths" as a manipulation and distortion ... then I need never worry about the current situation changing. Again, my opinion. In the western societies, it is a fact and it is not about illegally held guns but legally held guns that makes the difference. But hey, cowboys will be cowboys.

cloudboy -> RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America (5/1/2007 7:56:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zensee I would like to see the facts and proofs you have for unregulated firearms making the USA a safer place. Z. >After a deadly weekend with six city homicides, [Baltimore] Mayor Sheila Dixon outlined yesterday her long-awaited crime-fighting strategy, which includes targeting the most dangerous offenders, cracking down on illegal guns and strengthening community partnerships. Many of the proposals expand on existing initiatives, such as the city's safe zones, and resurrect old crime-fighting strategies, such as zeroing in on Baltimore's most violent offenders - an approach heralded by noted criminologist David Kennedy, who worked with the city in the late 1990s and was consulted on the current plan.< Guns are targeted in the Balto. City crime plan mainly b/c the Baltimore City mayor has a totalitarian view view of gov't and a complete disrespect for individual rights. The mayor is clearly a gun bigot too, b/c she refuses to include clubs, knives, and poisons in the "crack down." Its sad she's not following the Realone plan of just arming all the citizens to the teeth while repealing concealed weapons laws.

caitlyn -> RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America (5/1/2007 9:38:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy After a deadly weekend with six city homicides, [Baltimore] Mayor Sheila Dixon outlined yesterday her long-awaited crime-fighting strategy, which includes targeting the most dangerous offenders, cracking down on illegal guns and strengthening community partnerships. See, you might find this strange coming from me, but I think this mayor is being very reasonable. Going after the most dangerous offenders ... as opposed to all gun owners. Cracking down on illegal guns ... as opposed to cracking down on those that have them legally. This mayor seems to be making an attempt to get us to the point where perhaps we wont need to carry guns, which I would support completely. Rural areas would have to add two important point to this ... response time of police, and property protection. Western states need to add these two, along with consideration concerning our border with Mexico. Reasonable is the key word here ... understand that there are factors that apply to people in parts of the country, that don't apply to others ... example, I don't think you have to worry much about the need to have firearms to combat coyotes if you live in downtown Boston, but in the summer, here in rural Texas, that is more than a bit of a concern. (one of many possible examples)

cloudboy -> RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America (5/1/2007 1:41:16 PM)
Well, I get your positition that the status quo is fine with you. Where I live, the status quo also works (for me.) I recently had a client who had a "gun charge" on his rap sheet. When I looked up the Maryland law on this matter, I was quite suprised how comprehensive it was, making it essentially illegal to have a handgun anywhere but on one's own property. For instance if I had a gun under the seat of my own car and drove to a charity function to donate $1 Million Dollars, if I was stopped by the police and the gun was discovered, I'd be charged with illegal possession of a handgun. Even if I'd been threatened by someone who promised to get me, my possession of the gun in the car would be illegal unless I was in danger of iminent harm and in need of immediate self defense. Clearly reasonable, smart, and responsible gun owners pay a price for the criminals who misuse them. Clearly society pays a price for the overall widespread distribution and access to handguns we have in the US.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America (5/1/2007 2:26:34 PM)
quote: cloudboy and resurrect old crime-fighting strategies, such as zeroing in on Baltimore's most violent offenders - The question springs to my tiny mind... What had the Baltimore Police been doing before resurrecting the old strategy ?

caitlyn -> RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America (5/1/2007 2:29:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy Clearly society pays a price for the overall widespread distribution and access to handguns we have in the US. *If you would insert the word illegal, in front of handguns, I think many more people would agree with you.*

cloudboy -> RE: Meatcleaver, Guns, & America (5/1/2007 5:56:27 PM)
That's a good question. Most homicides in Baltimore are gang and drug related.

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