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Nuclear power and you! - 4/30/2007 5:08:47 AM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Hey guys.  I'm working on a paper on nuclear power right now.  It's due tommorow (Tuesday).

We had a workshop in class- one of those times people post their papers online beforehand, everyone reads, then comments in class.  One of the biggest problems in my paper was that I didn't address the common beliefs held about nuclear power.

I'm not looking for a definative, "This is true!", or "I know this" sort of thing.  Just..
What do you know about nuclear power plants?
What do you believe about nuclear power?
What do you know of their history or/and present day usage?
How do you believe they'll be used in the future?

If it's really nothing, or you could write books on the subject, either response would be great.  Trying to poll to understand my audience (which my teacher has, apparently, selected for me as a general audience).
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Nuclear power and you! - 4/30/2007 5:50:02 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I am very uncomfortable with the storage of spent fuels.


Ron


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Nuclear power and you! - 4/30/2007 6:00:24 AM   
kentaro1980


Posts: 31
Joined: 12/9/2004
Status: offline 		What do i know about Powerplants:
There are different kinds of plants some types can be used to create ("breed") material for a nuclear bomb, but the general principle in all plants is the same: A nuclear powerplant uses the radioactivity of the fuel rods to heat up water, turning it, or the water in a secondary circle into steam which in turn powers a turbine that produces electricity. the steam is then cooled down again into water where the circle closes.
What do you believe about nuclear power?
In the short (500-1000 years) run, nuclear power is the environmentally most friendly powersource, apart from water, wind and solar power, of course. In the long run, mankind should find a way to send the nuclear waste into the sun or find a way to decrease the halflife of Uranium and plutionium into a manageable amount (let's say down to 200 years instead of 4.5billion years)

What do you know of their history or/and present day usage?
France derives about 70% of it's electricity from nuclear powerplants and ranks along with Japan  in the top 5 in the usage of nuclear powerplants. The average life of a powerplant is about 25-30 years. There have been 2 major incidents that i can think of. The major ones being Harrisburg, PA in 1970ish (Three Mile Island) and Chernobyl in 1986, both caused by human intereference (or lack thereof) and not due to flaws in the construction.

How do you believe they'll be used in the future?
That depends if space-travel will be cheap enough to send the radioactive garbage in the sun or not. In the long run (next 100 years) I believe nuclear powerplants will be shut down, unless something is invented that takes care of the radioactive garbage.


(in reply to CuriousLord)
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RE: Nuclear power and you! - 4/30/2007 6:19:54 AM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks for the input guys.  It's good to get some views on the subject from others.  :)

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Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Nuclear power and you! - 4/30/2007 6:35:29 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		     If the electricity comes from a nucular plant, your coffee maker will be radioactive.  (I don't believe this in any way, but have heard it said by someone who completely bought into it.)

    Also, people who work in one glow in the dark.

   
    

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Nuclear power and you! - 4/30/2007 6:41:03 AM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Also, people who work in one glow in the dark.


This one isn't true.  I had a speaker from a local plant tell me so.  Strange fellow, really.  He avoided shade and asked me to assure him that the lights would remain on at all times before visiting.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Nuclear power and you! - 4/30/2007 7:00:23 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		I spent two years on the USS Long Beach so I've spent a lot of time within a few feet of a fission reactor.

From what guys I know who went on to work in power plants, they are very under/poorly maintained and only the government required overly safe and high quality construction has so far prevented a major accident.

Storage of spent fuel rods is a major problem. Keeping them in pools on the power plant grounds isn't viable and the feds are taking forever to get a central storage site constructed. When it comes time to move all those rods expect doomsayers and conspiracy nuts to freak out.

A Chernobyl type accident is very unlikely to occur in theUS. Chernobyl was a combination of a very bad concept for a reactor cooling strategy and very poor maintenance of the plant. US plants use a very reliable method to cool the reactor and while maintenance is bad it isn't nearly to the level of neglect seen at Chernobyl.

Three Mile Island was not the worst reactor accident in the US. SL-1 in 1961 killed 3 men and released a substantial amount of radioactive material into the environment.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Nuclear power and you! - 4/30/2007 7:08:12 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		I am disappointed with the advance of technology, but if you read my other posts, I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing.

Boils down to this, all they can do is make heat. They are contriolling an explosion, much like fuel injectors in a car introduce a precise amount of gas to fuel a controlled explosion in the cylinder. It is not that much more advanced than stoking up a coal furnace for a cold night, rather than burning down a forest for heat.

Everything we do makes heat. Scientists across the globe are not taught that heat is bad. They are not taught to think for themselves, if they were, they would conclude that heat is bad. I have the advantage of learning without a formal education.

Laugh if you want, but some of the most advanced inventors of our race have been self educated. They can't teach you what they do not know, and if your learning depends on teaching, you will not advance past current technology, you simply can't.

I think the best advances are going to come out of France. They are somehow rejuvinating spent fuel and using it again. All we can do is make DU weapons out of it. But then France is not trying to take over the world at the moment.

We need a more direct conversion. All the nuclear technology in the world up to date has basically accomplished one thing - boil water. Even fusion, boil water. Fuel cells are a different story, and I think like technology needs to be persued. This is the next step.

However the human race has adopted an attitude of "I want it now", and long term goals are sacrificed offhandedly for short term gain. Thus technology is disappointing. In my fictional book, money is completely removed from high tech. Not that this would work today, but think of it.

Because of money, all research, study and everything is geared to make a buck. As long as this prevails we will see technology, but mostly to watch the people, not to better their lives. As long as the buck in almighty, we shall not be. Thus the current state of affairs in the world.

Current state of the art is where to put the cupholder in your car. How to get more songs into an ipod type device. How to put more features on your Razr phone. That is what they're into because that is where the money is. People are playbabies. And they have money, or someone with money to buy them this shit. And it is shit.

That's right. Shit. When times get tough I wanna see you eat the cellphone or ipod. The PS3, the Xbox. We have, as a race, no, as a species, have forgotten what it is all about. Human advancement in technology is meant to fuel our survival and well being, and that of our progeny. It is easily seen that this is not how it is.

What's more, as long as we are ruled by oil-giarchs you are not going to see any technology of any import in the way of alternative energy.

Who knows what the future could hold. One chip of material in the throttle body of your car that makes gasoline unnecessary ? Change it every ten years. Do you think that if it were possible they would ever let it happen ? If you were them, would you ? Put yourself out of business overnight ? I think not.

I find it no surprise that France is at the forefront of nuclear technology, after all the Curies were from there. They also have less in the way of corporate control of their government and academia. I am in no way saying France is any kind of utopia, it is not. But their motives are different.

We have many nuclear power plants in the US, but what portion of our power is produced by these sources ? A shamefully small percentage. This society, or more aptly put, those who run it, or ruin it, have a love affair with fossil fuel.

In our generation we are not likely to see any major advances in nuclear technology, unless we have a revolution and take money out of the picture. To understand tht statement you need to know how the world works.

There are many very bright college grads out there who are looking for research grants. Well they pretty much say "prove this" or "disprove that". Rarely do they say "find out". Read some of them. People with the money have a goal. Go figure.

Some of my beliefs you do not want to know. But here goes. I don't think any government on this planet is mature and restrained enough to have nuclear technology, ESPECIALLY the US, Israel and England. That means if I had my way, fat man and little boy would've never happened. That means the second world war would not have ended as cleanly (if you can call that clean). That means that ½ of Europe might be under German rule. So be it.

Perhaps in the next 400 years or so, someone will take over the world, but will decide that they do not want to be a dictator or the government. If it was me, there would be a truly representative government. What it takes for that to happen is not easy to come by. We're talking people with high tech, and they do not let the government handle it. A government that could be overthrown in a matter of minutes. True leaders supported by the people. Or else.

Until something like that happens, get ready to pay $4 a gallon for gas.

And you can't stop. Do you want to walk ? Convert your furnace to electric, OK, but where do you think that comes from ? They got us by the balls and they are squeezing.

Tell you what, if Nixon had seen these gas prices and the profits made by the oil companies he would've done one of two things. One would be a total disgorgement, you get enough to make payroll and we are taking the rest. That money would be used to reimburse the people for their overpayment. Another option would've been to nationalize the oil industry. That's what Presidents are supposed to be for. Of course that has been done, but I am talking in a way not favorable to them. I mean some people would go to jail.

So if you want some true advancement in technology that doesn't involve spying on people, have a revolution, worldwide. That is the only way it will work. It is the way it is because they like it the way it is. They do not care how it is for us. Never have, never will.

And there are other things. As long as the mediasong impels people to buy houses as far as fucking humanly possible from where they work EVERY DAY, as long as people MUST have a 60 inch TV, as long as people MUST have things that are better than others, it will never stop.

You see, oil is alot more than gasoline. It is your keybopard, your Ipod, your phone. Plastic is made from oil.

In fact gasoline used to be a waste product, it was burned in the fields until Ranson Eli Olds came along (and a few others).

In a way, it still is a waste product. And we are going to pay $4 a gallon for it soon. Nice world eh ?

If I were an alien, reading the brochure for the planet Earth, I would never come here. Ever.

You asked.

T

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Nuclear power and you! - 4/30/2007 7:18:49 AM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
I am very uncomfortable with the storage of spent fuels.


Appreciate it, all.

Just to point out, some posts have more information than others, but a comment like mnottertail's is quite helpful and points to a specific concern I'm hoping to address in the paper.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Nuclear power and you! - 4/30/2007 7:20:31 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Let me throw out a little history-

When I was a schoolkid in CT back in the 70s- we had a field trip to visit Connecticut Yankee.  We really didn't see that much- I just remember looking at the outside of the dome.

I also remember buying the industry's viewpoint, hook, line and sinker-

1)  Nuclear power was safe- no one every got hurt.
2)  Nuclear waste wasn't a big deal because the volumes were small.  After all, a nuclear power plant in a submarine could generate enough electricity to run a city as big as Atlanta- and no one had ever been hurt in the nuclear power plant in a submarine.
3)  Nuclear power was going to be very, very cheap because the fuel lasted a long time.
4) We should trust the nuclear industry because they never lied to us.
5)  That eventually the plant would have to get shut down, but they had that all worked out.
6)  Nuclear waste wasn't a big problem- they were working on it and they'd have a solution soon.

We had a debate in class (maybe the 7th grade?) about the virtues and vices of nuclear power.  The waste issue- we dismissed it with breeder reactors.  ( I was on the pro nuclear side- I recall that we won- and that nobody wanted to be on the anti- side.)  My friends were some of the brightest kids in school- and we were all pro-nuke.

In college (grad. in '82) went to some meetings hosted by Greenpeace.  They wanted people to do a sea blockade of the Seabrook plant being built in NH.  I was lukewarm about the organization- but I remember getting pissed off when I learned how large the fuel volumes were.  (Tons- think hundreds)  Then discovering that the industry wasn't exactly forthright about it's sterling safety record- and that they had been hiring high school kids with little training to work on this stuff who'd gotten injured or killed when splashed with highly radioactive material.  (Why weren't you in your protective suit?  Couldn't see what I was doing- the sweat got in my eyes, so I took it off.)  When I was a naive schoolkid, I thought they were all scientists and engineers- had to be very smart and well educated to get a job there.  In college, I got a lot more cynical- and really pissed off about being lied to.

The movies in the 80s also helped demonize the industry- ranging from Silkwood to the China Syndrome- both believable at the time.

Nowadays- well, Three Mile Island- lots of scare mongering- but no one was hurt- just an expensive boo-boo.  We lose lots of people on oil rigs, in wars over oil, coal mining etc.  In the grand scheme of things, the nuclear industry probably could make a case for having a decent safety record- but their history of secrecy and evasion makes them far from trustworthy.  Chernobyl- a very risky plant design- lots of people died in the fire, (actually probably less than 100) big radioactive mess- but the immediate death toll was far less than the initial estimates of hundreds of thousands.  May be an increased incidence of cancer showing up now.  And that's about as bad a nuke accident as you could get- containment building ruptured- fire spewing tons of radioactive material into the atmosphere- long lived isotopes- yeeechhhh.

Radioactivity breeds a lot of fear.  If you tell people that coal ash will increase their chances of getting lung cancer 100x, but that the chance of an accidental release of a small volume of radioactive material will increase their risk 10x, I'll lay long odds people will take the coal ash instead.  Hollywood may have had a lot to do with this- but recall that the medical community screwed up too.  Even into the 1950s, the "healing" power of gamma radiation was touted as a way to cure ills without drugs- people with bad infections were urged to go into uranium mines.  Fluoroscopes  (fluoroscopes gave 10x-100x the dose of an old fashioned X-ray maybe more- don't remember- and modern x-rays use even less energy.) were common- even for something as mundane as fitting shoes.  So something that was commonly accepted proved to really be harmful.  (As a personal example, my mother had radiation treatment for acne when she was a kid in the 50s- and had a thyroidectomy a decade ago.)  Look at the comic books of the time as well- the Incredible Hulk, Spiderman etc- often were based on mutations due to radioactivity.

N.B.- I'm a scientist (Ph.D. in chemistry- never did much work with radioactive isotopes other than a few labs in college and a bit of work in grad school) and just completed a quickie overview of energy alternatives.  There's a whisper campaign going on that nuclear power is the only real viable alternative to oil and coal that I think is more marketing than science.

Kentauro- as an FYI- you can't change the half life of an isotope- it is what it is (any more than you can change the number of protons in a carbon atom (change the number of protons and it ain't carbon) but it is possible to use different isotopes with shorter half lives.  Also- and this may be a little unsettling- the reason the earth's core hasn't cooled off in the 5 (?- give or take) billion years of our planets existence, has to do with heat released from the radioactive reactions in the earth's core that keep it molten.  Hence, it makes much more sense to bury the stuff back in the core where it'd be right at home rather than the sun- but it is a little unsettling to know that a few miles(or less) below you- is lots and lots of very hot material.

HTH

Sam

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Nuclear power and you! - 4/30/2007 7:21:11 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I am disappointed with the advance of technology, but if you read my other posts, I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing.

Boils down to this, all they can do is make heat. They are contriolling an explosion, much like fuel injectors in a car introduce a precise amount of gas to fuel a controlled explosion in the cylinder. It is not that much more advanced than stoking up a coal furnace for a cold night, rather than burning down a forest for heat.

Everything we do makes heat. Scientists across the globe are not taught that heat is bad. They are not taught to think for themselves, if they were, they would conclude that heat is bad. I have the advantage of learning without a formal education.

Laugh if you want, but some of the most advanced inventors of our race have been self educated. They can't teach you what they do not know, and if your learning depends on teaching, you will not advance past current technology, you simply can't.

I think the best advances are going to come out of France. They are somehow rejuvinating spent fuel and using it again. All we can do is make DU weapons out of it. But then France is not trying to take over the world at the moment.

We need a more direct conversion. All the nuclear technology in the world up to date has basically accomplished one thing - boil water. Even fusion, boil water. Fuel cells are a different story, and I think like technology needs to be persued. This is the next step.

However the human race has adopted an attitude of "I want it now", and long term goals are sacrificed offhandedly for short term gain. Thus technology is disappointing. In my fictional book, money is completely removed from high tech. Not that this would work today, but think of it.

Because of money, all research, study and everything is geared to make a buck. As long as this prevails we will see technology, but mostly to watch the people, not to better their lives. As long as the buck in almighty, we shall not be. Thus the current state of affairs in the world.

Current state of the art is where to put the cupholder in your car. How to get more songs into an ipod type device. How to put more features on your Razr phone. That is what they're into because that is where the money is. People are playbabies. And they have money, or someone with money to buy them this shit. And it is shit.

That's right. Shit. When times get tough I wanna see you eat the cellphone or ipod. The PS3, the Xbox. We have, as a race, no, as a species, have forgotten what it is all about. Human advancement in technology is meant to fuel our survival and well being, and that of our progeny. It is easily seen that this is not how it is.

What's more, as long as we are ruled by oil-giarchs you are not going to see any technology of any import in the way of alternative energy.

Who knows what the future could hold. One chip of material in the throttle body of your car that makes gasoline unnecessary ? Change it every ten years. Do you think that if it were possible they would ever let it happen ? If you were them, would you ? Put yourself out of business overnight ? I think not.

I find it no surprise that France is at the forefront of nuclear technology, after all the Curies were from there. They also have less in the way of corporate control of their government and academia. I am in no way saying France is any kind of utopia, it is not. But their motives are different.

We have many nuclear power plants in the US, but what portion of our power is produced by these sources ? A shamefully small percentage. This society, or more aptly put, those who run it, or ruin it, have a love affair with fossil fuel.

In our generation we are not likely to see any major advances in nuclear technology, unless we have a revolution and take money out of the picture. To understand tht statement you need to know how the world works.

There are many very bright college grads out there who are looking for research grants. Well they pretty much say "prove this" or "disprove that". Rarely do they say "find out". Read some of them. People with the money have a goal. Go figure.

Some of my beliefs you do not want to know. But here goes. I don't think any government on this planet is mature and restrained enough to have nuclear technology, ESPECIALLY the US, Israel and England. That means if I had my way, fat man and little boy would've never happened. That means the second world war would not have ended as cleanly (if you can call that clean). That means that ½ of Europe might be under German rule. So be it.

Perhaps in the next 400 years or so, someone will take over the world, but will decide that they do not want to be a dictator or the government. If it was me, there would be a truly representative government. What it takes for that to happen is not easy to come by. We're talking people with high tech, and they do not let the government handle it. A government that could be overthrown in a matter of minutes. True leaders supported by the people. Or else.

Until something like that happens, get ready to pay $4 a gallon for gas.

And you can't stop. Do you want to walk ? Convert your furnace to electric, OK, but where do you think that comes from ? They got us by the balls and they are squeezing.

Tell you what, if Nixon had seen these gas prices and the profits made by the oil companies he would've done one of two things. One would be a total disgorgement, you get enough to make payroll and we are taking the rest. That money would be used to reimburse the people for their overpayment. Another option would've been to nationalize the oil industry. That's what Presidents are supposed to be for. Of course that has been done, but I am talking in a way not favorable to them. I mean some people would go to jail.

So if you want some true advancement in technology that doesn't involve spying on people, have a revolution, worldwide. That is the only way it will work. It is the way it is because they like it the way it is. They do not care how it is for us. Never have, never will.

And there are other things. As long as the mediasong impels people to buy houses as far as fucking humanly possible from where they work EVERY DAY, as long as people MUST have a 60 inch TV, as long as people MUST have things that are better than others, it will never stop.

You see, oil is alot more than gasoline. It is your keybopard, your Ipod, your phone. Plastic is made from oil.

In fact gasoline used to be a waste product, it was burned in the fields until Ranson Eli Olds came along (and a few others).

In a way, it still is a waste product. And we are going to pay $4 a gallon for it soon. Nice world eh ?

If I were an alien, reading the brochure for the planet Earth, I would never come here. Ever.

You asked.

T


You are  hereby awarded pahunkboys informal post of the day award! :-)


http://www.tmia.com/    no US nuclear plants has been built since TMI. Explore thhis site- harrisburg learned about it when a bosten dj called the mayor. during tmi- i flew to PA. the was an odd erie fog. luckly i was upwind.
prez carter as it turns out had some background in this teck.

the problem is in the US there is no standard design.

yucca mountain in nevaada was to permaaanenty house high level waste. the folks are fighting it. now for low level waste- states are clustered into per haps a group of 5. 1 of the 5 will"host" the low level dump.

meanwhile communities accross teh us dont want high level wast trucked in thru their cities.

windpower-solar hybid is where it is at.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Nuclear power and you! - 4/30/2007 7:54:24 AM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		I think I'm going to start out the paper with this suggestion from a guy in the workshop: scaring the reader.  Going to play it heavy on the telling of the nukes dropping on Japan, then on the disaster at Chernobyl with dramatic views and such, then switch to back to why this isn't a problem.

My professor said I needed a better hook.  I think this guy had a great idea.  Any points of concern I might be overlooking?  (I'm debating how wise it is to scare an uninformed audience as I'm not sure how much the people grading it will know about the subject.  This project's 70% of my final grade in the course and I need to pass it.)

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Nuclear power and you! - 4/30/2007 8:35:47 AM   
kentaro1980


Posts: 31
Joined: 12/9/2004
Status: offline 		I think...you failed in reading comprehension.
Be that as it may...

quote:

I have the advantage of learning without a formal education.

It isn't exactly an advantage when understanding the laws of physics is necessary to partake in this discussion. Heat is not bad. If the core of this planet would not be a chunk of molten lava there wouldn't be a whole lot of life on this planet. Too much heat radiates back out in space, just like heat radiates out of the house if you leave the windows open. So called "green house gasses" trap the heat. Too much of that is bad.
Furthermore you display an impressive lack of knowledge about how a nuclear powerplant works in general. It's not a controlled explosion, the principle is (very rougly) like a microwave heating up water. Fuelrods aren't magically refueled, there are 2 different methods about that, use wikipedia to read up on that, and this refueling can also only be done so many times.
Where do you get that  France is the most advanced in nuclear power? The USA derive 20% of their energy from nuclear powerplants. Do you call 20% a shamefully small percentage? "All the nuclear technology in the world"...yes...ever considered that this was the only goal in the firstplace? That a steam turbine has an efficiency of up to 90%? In other words, 90% of the energy going into the turbine in form of hot steam is converted into electricity...Your highly praised Fuel cell? 22-50%, with 50% being the theoretical maximum. Oh...since heat is so bad...guess what the other 50% of the potential energy in the fuel cell is converted to? That's right. heat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell  <- read up and do your homework please.


quote:

In my fictional book, money is completely removed from high tech.

Greed is the most powerful driving force known to mankind.

quote:

Human advancement in technology is meant to fuel our survival and well being, and that of our progeny.

What is bad with improving existing technology and finetuning and perfecting it? The concept of a car has not changed since the first car was built by Gottlieb Daimler, and look what kind of cars are driving around now.

quote:

Until something like that happens, get ready to pay $4 a gallon for gas.

I'm paying 1.339 Euros per liter of 95-octane fuel for my car. 1 gallon = 3.67 liters. 1 Euro = 1.35 Dollars. You do the math:  1.339 x 3.67 x 1.35 = 6.63 Dollars.
Ranson Eli Olds was born in 1864.  The word "gasoline" was coined in 1865, and petrole was stockpiled in 1870 in the Franco-Prussian war. Than Ranson fellow must have been one bright kid!
A President has no power to do such a thing as nationalizing an entire industry. The President of the United states has the executive (law-enforcing) power of the government while Congress and Senate hold the Legislative (law-making). If at all, Congress and Senate could pass a bill to nationalize an entire industry.

In closing..and i should have said only that in the beginning, but that would be rude:

Do your homework, back your claims up with some numbers and even better, sources. I understand Wikipedia is not the allknowing and always right source, but it is a good start.


Edit for CuriousLord:
A good rule of thumb is to treat the one you're talking as if he had as much knowledge as you. My (admittedly uninformed) opening paragraph would briefly sketch out the advantages and disadvantages, asking the reader which outweighs the other....then going into more detail about all aspects you outlined in the introduction..and ultimatively forming your own opinion (and stating that this is your opinion and not the universal truth)











< Message edited by kentaro1980 -- 4/30/2007 8:42:37 AM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Nuclear power and you! - 4/30/2007 8:37:15 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Hunky, TY for the award, but awards don't mean shit. In my book even the Nobel prize is gone. You do shit for your species. Praise is not an issue.

But that is not the world in which we live. Even though I appreciate praise, I accept it grudgingly. No fault of your's, it is a quirk of mine. I have done things for people that would make them fall on their sword for me, and when they say thank you I sometimes say "Don't thank me, that's what the fuck I was sposed to do".

My cousin worked as an electrician, wiring the Perry plant. He told me that the foremen would always be around, making changes. My Father, a job-shop machinist (HBM operator) told him "When the foreman comes and wants changes, make him note it on the print and initial it, then that print gets locked up in your tool box".

It is not only people at the top who are getting lazy and stupid, it is all of us. It seems as though the whole of humanity has lost it's lust for life.

And that, my friend, is why I drink and smoke as much as I possibly can. I don't even get a buzz anymore, just numb enough to handle life. But it is all I can do without whiskey, and I won't drink whiskey, nor will I get into hard drugs. I need a bit of numbness, not dumbness.

I know it's a damn shame, but sometimes you just know too much. I know how people are in general. I know how self centered and selfish WE have bacome. YES I am selfish. YES I am self indulgent. YES I am selfish enough to not have kids. But I know better. What kind of world can I offer up to my progeny ? Fuck all that.

I live for the here and now, and as much as I do care, I don't care. Blow the fucking planet up. it is cool with me. And you know they are going to do it.

If oblivion is our destiny so be it, and like with others who have faced this in the past, the quality of life is poor enough that we won't really miss it. I do not want to die, but I have no fear of it.

We are so fucked up intellectually and mentally that we almost belong dead. We have fucked up every good thing that ever came along. We interpret until the words match our own viewpoint, without considering if that is right or wrong.

Look at what happened to Christianity. Here we have a Man 2,000 years ago preaching peace and love and nowadays that results in the bombing of abortion clinics. How the fuck are we ever going to understand higher physics ?

My friends, nothing is ever going to happen good unless we make it happen. It can start right here, even right now. Get started, while I don't think they want this forum to turn political (might be too late) I think a thread or two on WHAT we should do and HOW we should do it would be OK. I have started threads to that effect, where were you ?

We either start electing people who represent us instead of big money, or we have an armed conflict. Time still exists for a peaceful solution, but is growing short. Very short. As long as big money controls society the way it does, you will see any alternative to oil snuffed or misled down the garden path. That is how it is. Happy ?

Until the best minds take, TAKE society by the horns and wield the power now in control of big business, we are going nowhere. And that is a fact. I don't need any quotes or links to prove it. Nobody does, it is plain and simple.

In my fictional book "people don't waste energy anymore", that is the first step. Indeed I took a $3 an hour cut in pay to work about 15 miles closer. I see we are not organized into an orderly society. Eastlake and Westlake are about 50 miles away, yet every day, workmen go from one to the other to do a job, and vice versa. MY job, MINE MINE MINE, can't trade off because I sold the job. You can't do it for me even if you live next door to the customer, because I CAN'T TRUST ANYONE TO DO IT ! so we burn up millions of gallons of gas everry day.

If people were competent and diligent, and had a good work ethic, we would not have these problems. Chernobyl, TMI, both cases of PEOPLE not doing it right. In some cases management has very little to do with it, except for hiring the wrong people. Nepotism and favoritism are rampant in our world.. Sickening. Even in the case of positions that are very sensitive, that could cost thousands of lives, frequently the wrong people are chosen.

We must change as a race, as a species. We are the impetus, and the source of all wealth. We must take this bull by the horns and guide it to a better path. Only we can do that. It is not going to fix itself. Never has, never will.

The mind of the common Man must get into reality. Put down the TV remote, the Xbox, the Razrphone. Think. Where are we headed, what are we doing ?

Where I live I know that if Perry nuclear power plant blew up I would be worse than fucked. I am far enough away to die that slow death, I would not be fried immediately. Scared ? To death. I would rather be right there and it all ends quick. And I know that at least some of the people who work there do not care, nor realize the gravity of their function there. It is human nature to be lazy.

Fear ? Threaten me with a gun, and you will have lunch, I'll shove it down your throat. I have no fear of a strong opponent, a weapon or even the government, but I am deathly afraid of some idiot pushing the wrong button.

People do not care. I remember the PBS affiliate having this thing for kids"You're the most important person". Truly sickening, pretty much extracts any cohesion the child may have had to society, and instills false pride. Disconnects them in a way. Actually trains them to be selfish. I know people who are so ignorant that they insist on doing things the hard way even after they have been told the easy way. The scary part is that they have money, even scarier, they can vote, and scarier still, they do vote.

And the result is such that if I decided to study nuclear technology, I mean really, and came up with a fuel cell or something that would supply the whole country with energy for a decade on a couple of grams of plutonium, they would find a way to put me in prison. Doubt that ? Do you really doubt that ?

I didn't mean to hijack the thread, but suffice it to say that this is why I keep myself as anesthetised as possible at all times. If I didn't care ity would be no problem. But I do.

Gimme a beer.

T

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Nuclear power and you! - 4/30/2007 8:52:57 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

What do you know about nuclear power plants?


I have a basic understanding of how traditional nuclear plants work, as well as an understanding of how some of the newer, passively failsafed designs work. I also know they contribute less radioactivity than coal plants, and that pollution would go way down if we were to transition to nuclear power. A decently run nuclear plant is fairly safe, and the newer designs are supposedly inherently safe.

If you include the "alternative" nuclear plants, like the "amplifier" plants and Thorium plants, things start looking real good, both in terms of safety, pollution and output.

quote:

What do you believe about nuclear power?


That a transition to nuclear power and/or "renewable" sources will be inevitable at some point in time, that this will be good for the environment, and that it will change the face of the earth.

Getting away from the current dependency on oil will really change the balance in some areas, and will definitely change the international economy and politics. Consider that India has the largest store of Thorium anywhere, and have the fastest growing technical community (IIRC) of any country; that's bound to shift interests away from the middle east at some point in time, for instance.

quote:

What do you know of their history or/and present day usage?


Apart from the obvious bits about the Manhattan project and Chernobyl, very little about their history; we don't have nuclear power in my country, except for a single experimental reactor, so it hasn't been very interesting for me.

quote:

How do you believe they'll be used in the future?


First, oil will become less viable, so we'll transition to regular fission plants, then that'll become less viable, so we'll transition to thorium. Some of the new reactor types will be used to recycle our current waste piles along the way. By the time the thorium runs out, humanity will have annihilated itself, or the world will look like nothing we know, making predictions futile.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Nuclear power and you! - 4/30/2007 9:20:12 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord
What do you know about nuclear power plants?

quote:

What do you believe about nuclear power?

It's an absolutely excellent efficient way to generate power...but its issues with disposal of waste and small but very bad risk factors make it prohibitive.
quote:


What do you know of their history or/and present day usage?

A fair amount.
quote:


How do you believe they'll be used in the future?

I think there will be some continued usage and growth, but nothing serious.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Nuclear power and you! - 4/30/2007 9:58:12 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Kentaro, I'm not real big on "degrees."
"Degrees" are a dime a ton today.
George Bush has a "degree."
Bill Clinton has a couple of "degrees."
People who work at Starbucks have "degrees."
"Hey you with the Master's degree, two lattes no sugar!"
I know too many highly intelligent people who don't have them and excell in their fields or businesses.
And far and away the best students are,...homeschooled.
Of course the educational establishment doesn't want you to know that.
My best friend growing up was absolutely brilliant.
He "enjoyed" electronics like most people enjoy watching t.v.
He went To Boston U. for one semester and quit.
I asked him why and he said it was, "like fuckin high school all over again."
I asked him why he didn't get a "degree" in Electrical Engineering, he said, "why should I waste four years studying something I already fuckin' know?"
He went on to become the head computer guy for a large hospital in Boston.
He could run them, fix them and program them all on his own.
All self taught. And he always got all "A's" in every subject in high school.
Unfortunately he drank himself to death.
And look at our government.
Twenty years ago most office jobs were filled by Secretaries.
Now they "require" that you have a "degree." For what? To shuffle papers?
So, there are exceptions to all rules.

(in reply to kentaro1980)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Nuclear power and you! - 4/30/2007 10:43:59 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Hey guys.  I'm working on a paper on nuclear power right now.  It's due tommorow (Tuesday).

We had a workshop in class- one of those times people post their papers online beforehand, everyone reads, then comments in class.  One of the biggest problems in my paper was that I didn't address the common beliefs held about nuclear power.

I'm not looking for a definative, "This is true!", or "I know this" sort of thing.  Just..
What do you know about nuclear power plants?
I know a bit about them, Diablo Canyon Nuclear Power Plant
is located nearby and is a source of controversy in the local community. 
One of the main concerns is that it is located on top of an earthquake fault.

What do you believe about nuclear power?
The main problem is what to do with the waste, which remains radioactive for thousands of years. 
Rumor has it that there are glow in the dark animals around the Hanford Nuclear site in the state of Washington.

What do you know of their history or/and present day usage?
The US has a limited supply of these plants.  If I recall correctly,
nuclear power is a main source of electricity in France.  Chernobyl
was disasterous in Russia.

How do you believe they'll be used in the future?
Their use will be limited in the future due to lack of storage and
safety problems with the rods and the fact that nobody wants
the waste transported through their area.  (NIMBY effect)

If it's really nothing, or you could write books on the subject, either response would be great.  Trying to poll to understand my audience (which my teacher has, apparently, selected for me as a general audience).


_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Nuclear power and you! - 4/30/2007 11:33:21 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		CL

I'm always aggravated at authors who start out with an irrelevant case just to hook the reader- "Anna Nicole Smith's Death Linked to Victoria's Secret!  10 sentences later.....The former Playboy bunny was found wearing a Victoria's Secret bra when she died of a drug overdose...."

There's no relation to atomic weapons and atomic power other than the word "atomic" or "nuclear".  Kentauro's distinction is a very useful one.  If you need to hook the reader- describe the hell and heroes of Chernobyl.  Or the opening scene from the China Syndrome....

Sam

(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Nuclear power and you! - 4/30/2007 11:41:18 AM   
kentaro1980


Posts: 31
Joined: 12/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Kentaro, I'm not real big on "degrees."


I did not mention "degree" once in my post. I mentioned that having a knowledge of the laws of physics is necessary to participate in some discussions, such as this one. I hope i don't need to elaborate again where  Termyn8or so clearly fails to show such knowledge.  I don't care about degrees either. What i care about is the actual knowledge one displays.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 20
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