RE: "Punishment"???? (Full Version)

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charlotte12 -> RE: "Punishment"???? (5/7/2007 7:33:56 PM)

I have not read the whole thread because a have thought and i'm pretty sure i'll forget what i wanted to say if i read the whole thing. After i get out what i want to say i'll go back and read the rest. (and possibly post again :P )

My feeling about punishment is that even if a punishment is being used in a non play situation it is still play just on a different level. I feel that it is still a kink.  One example often given is how a spanking won't really punish a pain slut. Many people will say that a true punishment is something that the sub does not like, that only that kind of punishment will really change their behavior. I believe the OP said that communication is a better way to deal with issues between two people but that they are right there if the goal is to get kinky and fulfill a fantasy. I couldn't agree more but i would like to suggest that even this common example is in fact still a kink. The way i see it both adults have entered in to this type of relationship and they obviously both enjoy it if they stay in it so while the punishment itself might not be hot, simply the idea of being punished can be a kink.

That said, for me here is where i feel i would draw the line. I really really really like the dynamic of a punishment. Of course i would love physical punishment but if He chose to punish me in a way i would not enjoy on such an immediate level i would be hot as well. I like the feeling of someone excersizing that kind of control over me and treating me like that. What i would NOT like is if a Dom had a real problem with the way i was treating him, felt that i as simply his partner had treated him badly and decided to punish me for that. Such a situation could only warrant talking and true communication for me because while i might identify as his submissive i am at the end of the day his partner and he is mine and if we cannot talk about problems we have together then we can't have a trusting relationship.

A quick example would be if i forgot to make dinner because i was watching tv. If he punished me for that i would still call that a kink because it fits into our D/s relationship. If he had been upset at me being flakey for the last month and is wondering if i am taking him for granted i would hope communication not a punishment would follow.

I hope that makes sense. i think in my new found excitement about being back here i might be rambling on a lot. sorry

~"charlotte"




Aswad -> RE: "Punishment"???? (5/7/2007 7:35:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am talking about certain cultures with very few laws, and the few that they do possess have  the penalty (punishment) of death by shunning. It is a punishment I suppose,


It is definitely a punishment in some senses. In the traditional sense, borrowing the words of WP, "the practice of imposing something unpleasant on a wrongdoer"; it certainly fits this description. Although if it is equivalent to capital punishment in the sense that it is irreversible, it cannot be said to apply in the sense of "something that causes a behaviour to lessen in intensity" (from psychological learning theory).

quote:

but it is done for the welfare of the whole, not the punishment of the one. It is not meant to coerce anyone into anything or modify behavior of that individual, although I am sure it sets and example for those who witness this sort of treatment.


While some societies, like the US, still employ punishments as a means of redress, by applying a punishment to an individual deemed to have done something wrong, the main reason for punishments, and the only reason in many western societies, is to modify the behaviour of the individual and to set a deterring example for the rest of society. In this sense, it should only be done for the welfare of the whole, and I feel that is the ideal model of justice, as two wrongs don't make a right to my mind.

In the societies you mentioned, it doesn't serve to modify the behaviour of the individual, as it is irreversible (if I read your post correctly). But it still serves as a deterrent to the rest of their society.

quote:

Thanks for being ultimate source of knowledge. I will keep that in mind the next time I think about discussing anything with you.


I'm sorry, but I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, so please ignore the rest of my reply if you weren't, and assume the appropriate thanks for the overstated compliment in that case.

If you were being sarcastic, as I find most likely, then I'd point out that of course I am the ultimate source of knowledge! [sm=cool.gif]

No, seriously, I know full well that I am not.

But, equally, I don't know what you're familiar with, what you aren't familiar with, and what you might potentially find interesting. So I pointed these things out in case they would be useful to you, or possibly to someone else following the thread. I don't know you, so please don't take offense. If there is anything you would like to point out to me, I would greatly appreciate if you do so; I'm always happy to learn new things, as there are many things I don't know jack shit about, while most things I know even less about.

If you point out something I already know, I'll still be happy that you tried to share it with me, and I hope you'll feel the same when I point out something to you that you already know.



Aswad -> RE: "Punishment"???? (5/7/2007 7:37:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

OK there is a difference fearing the punishment then fearing the person..


That was my point.

quote:

I am not scared of Master he wouldnt want me to be to US that would seem unhealthy (just my opinion) I am however afraid of dissapointing him...  but that is way different


It isn't as different as you think. My neph fears my punishments, but she doesn't fear me. Quite on the contrary.

quote:

Oh and I aint to fond of the electric paddle LOL


Who is? [:D]



Aswad -> RE: "Punishment"???? (5/7/2007 7:41:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Calandra

I try very hard to make the punishment fit the offense. If cubby mouths off to Me, then he has to remain completely silent for a period of time. If he overspends family funds, he has to do without something that he wants that costs money. I believe in reality discipline when possible, letting life teach My slaves the correct behavior to use, but I don't withhold punishment if their behavior impacts Me or My household.


Making the punishment fit the offense is pretty important. But I find it more important to fit the magnitude of the punishment to the offense than changing the nature of the punishment. To me, I find it more suitable to adapt the nature of the punishment to the nature of the sub/slave instead. Different people respond to different things.

What you're suggesting probably works well with a lot of people, though, and does have a sense of "justice" to it.



Aswad -> RE: "Punishment"???? (5/7/2007 7:46:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stranger1

Part of the attraction of D/s is the structured responsibility/consequence so lacking in mundane life these days.


There is indeed an opportunity to add an element of the kind of primal ritual approach used in less "civilized" cultures. I think those things have some importance to some of us; why else would people be searching out substitutes in their everyday lives, as well as some people searching out body modifications, hook suspension, tatoos, etc.?

quote:

In a world that increasingly shies away from taking personal accoutability seriously-the buck stops with that guy with the wooden spoon in his hand.[;)]


It's more a matter of direct authority. The person has authority both because you have submitted to him/her, and because that person can and will physically intervene if that is necessary. For some, that can be very helpful.

For others, it is just conditioning, which some (like me) like for some reason or other.



Aswad -> RE: "Punishment"???? (5/7/2007 7:51:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

for me a M/s union just would not be effective, productive, or stable if genuine fear of the One who owned me was not a reality. this fear enhances his control over me as well as the respect i have for him. i could not respect a Mate that i did not fear.


Are you sure you're not confusing fear with respect? No offense, I'm just curious. Either way is okay with me. I can understand and sympathize with the idea of wanting to fear one's Master, although I would personally prefer to avoid that in my relationships, unless the sub/slave wanted it that way. I would prefer them to fear what I can do, rather than me as a person.

quote:

but it's something we both find necessary to make the M/s dynamic truly work.


I have found that neph responds well to fearing the consequences of stepping out of line, but I don't think she would respond well to fearing me. I can still see how it can be useful, however.



Aswad -> RE: "Punishment"???? (5/7/2007 8:06:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

Are you suggesting that dominants never err?


Of course we do. All the time. Everyone does.

The fact that we aren't infallible doesn't change the fact that we are in charge.

quote:

Despite the fact that D/s is not an egalitarian relationship, I do believe that I am just as capable of learning from my mistakes in the same manner a dominant learns from theirs.


Nobody is saying that you can't learn from your mistakes on your own. Or that Doms always learn from theirs. But sometimes, a sub doesn't learn, or doesn't want to learn, for some reason or another. Other times, a Dom wants to punish for some reason.

There are many reasons.

What Padriag was saying is that, realistically, there will be role drift over time, and the sub/slave may sometimes end up saying "fuck this, I'm old enough to make my own decisions", just as many of them have argued here with regards to learning from their mistakes.

Of course most subs are as capable of living their lives responsibly as their Doms are.
Realistically, the Doms and subs both make mistakes. But subs have chosen not to live their lives as their Doms do. For some, punishments can serve to reinforce this.



Aswad -> RE: "Punishment"???? (5/7/2007 8:15:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

If punishments were effective, jails would not be over flowing as they do.


Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

First, let's start by reversing your argument. If there were no punishments in society, do you think there would be no criminals?

Then, let's get back to the bit about the bathwater ... the generalization. Allow me to correct your statement so it's fully logically coherent:
If those punishments we use in my society were effective, our jails would not be as overflowing as they are.
The fact is that different punishment models work differently. Islamic countries have a lot less theft, presumably due to chopping off the hands of thiefes, although this isn't a model I'd like to adopt in general. Denmark has one of the world's lowest recidivism rates, mostly because of the way they operate their prison system.

The US has a prison system that is one of the most effective means we know of for hardening criminals and locking them into a criminal lifepath. That does not mean that punishments in general don't work.

Parents punish their children as well. This works, as long as the child can make sense of why they are being punished, and as long as the punishments are not too harsh or too mild.



daddysprop247 -> RE: "Punishment"???? (5/8/2007 10:32:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

for me a M/s union just would not be effective, productive, or stable if genuine fear of the One who owned me was not a reality. this fear enhances his control over me as well as the respect i have for him. i could not respect a Mate that i did not fear.


Are you sure you're not confusing fear with respect? No offense, I'm just curious. Either way is okay with me. I can understand and sympathize with the idea of wanting to fear one's Master, although I would personally prefer to avoid that in my relationships, unless the sub/slave wanted it that way. I would prefer them to fear what I can do, rather than me as a person.

quote:

but it's something we both find necessary to make the M/s dynamic truly work.


I have found that neph responds well to fearing the consequences of stepping out of line, but I don't think she would respond well to fearing me. I can still see how it can be useful, however.




yes it's not something that all submissives would respond well to, that's for sure. and actually fear and respect are more closely entertwined than most think. one definition of fear is "profound reverence and awe"...reverence can be defined as a profound respect, this is usually in reference to a deity (i.e. when someone describes themselves as "God-fearing"), and since for me my Master is very much like my God, it's a fitting term. however i also fear him in the more common usage of the term, in that i do view him as a potential source of danger. it is natural of course to fear the consequences of one's actions, as in a physical punishment, and i have a healthy fear of that as well. but perhaps the difference with us is that my Master does punish for the small infringements as well as the large ones, so that it forces me to second think nearly every action and therefore i am pretty much constantly nervous and fearful. i also know him well enough to know that he has a fierce temper, and if i make a small mistake on the wrong day (say a day when he had 3 deadlines to meet at work or was caught in traffic for 2 hrs), then the punishment will be much more severe than it would be otherwise. i cannot rest easy with the knowledge that "oh, he will only do such and such" because the truth is i can't guess what he will do or what his reaction will be.

my Master feels this state....of unease and fear always bubbling just beneath the surface...is a healthy one in which to keep a slave.



junecleaver -> RE: "Punishment"???? (5/8/2007 12:25:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I "get" the idea of "punishment" as a means to add spice and fulfill fantasies as part of BDSM. "You've been a bad girl now drop your pants and come over here". Punishment scenes can be really fun and very hot.


Punishment is a word that elicits a very strong reaction from me because the idea of punishment comes with feelings of disappointment/frustration/anger for the punisher.  I was very rarely punished as a child so maybe I'm not desensitized to those feelings?

We do a lot consequence play.  I call it that, because it makes me feel better.  We play games.  I have to stay completely still while he tickles me or he'll start hitting me with a wooden spoon.  'Or he'll start hitting me' isn't a punishment.  He won't be disappointed.  It's not me being disobedient.  It's just a neutral consequence of moving.  He sets up situations that I think probably give me the similar feeling people get during punishment play, but his disappointment isn't something that would ever turn me on.    He never calls me bad, unless I've been bad.

quote:


I don't get the idea of punishment though when there is a sincere attempt to change behavior, deal with emotional issues or overcome conditioning. The main reason I don't get it is because we are all supposed to be adults here and I can not understand why adults should need to be punished. Instead I would hope that as adults we should be mature enough to be responsible and accountable. Now as I said....if the end goal is to get hot and kinky and fulfill a fantasy....I'm right there with it.  

Let me put it this way...should people need to be told not to murder others? or steal from others? or drive dangerously?  Not really.  Yet, we have to put measures in place to curb this kind of behavior.  As mature adults, you'd think we would be capable of being perfect!

Punishment can be very good for me.  It reinforces who is in control.  It allows me to make tangible ammends for my actions.  It just kind of resets me.  If I have digressed to the point where I would deserve punishment, I need to be reset and we both need to reevaluate what has been going on. 

Punishment is never just beating me silly.  It is a lot of talking, a lot of self-searching, a lot of discussion and build up, finished off with whatever punishment is decided upon in order to reinforce what we talked about and allow me to deal with the consequence of my actions.

quote:


I believe that life issues are better solved with communication, education, support and positive affirmation or in some cases, professional help. As I said in another thread, if putting clothespins on your nipples, sticking a beer can up your twat and spanking your clit with a wooden spoon on web cam was an effective method of resolving issues or changing thought patterns or behaviors......mental health professionals would be prescribing it. There is a reason they're not.


Punishent is a TYPE of communication.
quote:


Here on collarme we have an endless string of "I need punishment ideas " threads. I think that somehow, somewhere along the line these concepts got linked to this lifestyle to the point that some think that's what this is based on or about.


Well, maybe.  But some of those threads, the OPs are wankers.





TigressFL -> RE: "Punishment"???? (5/8/2007 2:04:46 PM)

I do not use corporal punishment, however, this does not mean there are no consequences for negative behavior. During the education process I am more lenient in the sense that I provide the education, positive reinforcement and when they make a mistake I do not punish, I bring the mistake to their attention, explain my expectations of their behavior from that point forward then move on once I know they fully understand. Only when an offense is repeated numerous times or is extreme in nature will I forgo correction and go into the consequences (punishment if you will). My goal is to never have to punish anyone, I hate it in fact, however, there are times when I must and I will punish.


I personally have a hard time wrapping my head around situations where the only time physical pain is inflicted is when the person has done something incorrect and is being punished. In addition the person inflicting the pain at those times actually enjoys doing it and looks forward to when the person makes mistakes. My brain says the person simply has not come to terms with their own sadism and as a result he or she needs a way to justify it. Though that may have nothing to do with it for some and everything to do with it for others.




Archer -> RE: "Punishment"???? (5/8/2007 2:32:45 PM)

I think the problem lies in how well organized and integrated each couple is when it comes to a system of discipline.

In my experince infractions are generally found to be from lack of focus, or lack of understanding an instruction, than willfull disobedience.
In any case the thing that a lapse tells me is that more or re training is required andthat this time maybe a different approach to training is required.

Lazy and lack of focus would result not in punishment nessisarily but rather in a more focused training.
Not understanding the instruction would result in an adjustment in communication methods moreso than punishment
Punishment might also be included for their part in the problem mostly though the human mind seems to crave punishment as a consequence based on the idea of absolution and pennance closing the book on an incident.

I can't count the number of slaves I know that will punish themselves beyond all reason unless and until their owner sets the price and extracts the conpensation. Thus the need for pennance.

I tend to change the name of the game people tend to call "play punishment", I call it predicament play. Placing them in a no win situation both knowing that that is the game being played.



OsideGirl -> RE: "Punishment"???? (5/8/2007 2:48:33 PM)

Well, to me a spanking is a reward for being a good girl. So, is getting my clit spanked. Oh, and so is getting my ass whipped. And my feet caned. You get the gist. [:D]

In the entire time that we've been together, I've been punished exactly once and it wasn't anything remotely enjoyable. I cried through the entire thing because it was something very serious to me. A good long talk also accompanied the physical part.

I let my temper loose on someone that thoroughly deserved it, when I had been specifically asked not to. Master agreed that the receiver did deserve my temper, but he wished to be the one who dealt with it. Instead, I just gave way to my own will, which is what I was punished for.



WiseCracknSadist -> RE: "Punishment"???? (5/8/2007 5:34:11 PM)

I believe punishment is used to maintain the balance. Without punishments the sub or slave is free to what they please when they please. The punishments are used to keep things from getting out of hand. If not for punishments you might as well be in a vanilla relationship, miserable because you're unable to enforce the rules to maintan the lifestyle that you're comfortable with.

Do all relationships need punishment? Of course not. But there are pain sluts and humiliation sluts and just plain old now will power sluts who all say the need the punishment in one form or another. Not to mention all of us sadist.

Generally when people talk about what they don't understand it's because it's not a part of their personality. I don't get submissiveness at all. I'm just glad they exist.



Aswad -> RE: "Punishment"???? (5/8/2007 5:53:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

and actually fear and respect are more closely entertwined than most think.


I think I can relate to this. Basically, one particular kind of respect, often referred to as "having a 'healthy respect' for XYZ", is closely related to fear, although not the same thing, and of a different magnitude. I have a "healthy respect" for fire, for instance. I don't mess with it carelessly; I'm attentive and mindful of how I deal with it.

That said, I also have a fascination with fire; not in a sense of "whee, let's burn down a building", but in the sense that a fire is very close to a living being: it "metabolizes" fuel, it can grow, it can reproduce, it responds to some kinds of stimuli, and it has a limited ability to adapt. At the same time, it's a process, much as life is.

A bit off topic, but never let us engineering types build a fire for you. Together with two colleagues, I made a bonfire mostly out of wet compost in a garden pond. We didn't use any significant amount of accelerant, though we did use some accelerant to quench the fire in some places. It got hot enough to deform metal and crack rock, and we successfully burnt most of the compost in the garden at the time. I think we ended up seeing it as an engineering challenge, and engineered a solution to making the fire work within the constraints given. Truly a wierd experience. [:D]

quote:

one definition of fear is "profound reverence and awe"...


I've actually never encountered that definition. I think it's mostly a matter of the concepts having been entangled in people's minds over time. I have experienced profound reverence and awe, and I have had (and still have) profound respect for some people, but I don't think I've ever feared anyone. I have felt threatened by some people, but I respond to that with the usual fight-or-flight response (adrenaline rush, etc.), and sometimes respond by entering "combat mode" (target lock, peripheral exclusion, altered state of consciousness, etc.).

quote:

reverence can be defined as a profound respect, this is usually in reference to a deity (i.e. when someone describes themselves as "God-fearing"), and since for me my Master is very much like my God, it's a fitting term.


I get that, although as a religious person, I would be uncomfortable with being viewed as, or compared to, my G*d, or any other for that matter. That's why I don't like the widespread use of such terms as "foot worship", which usually doesn't have any religious connotations for the people involved, strictly speaking; I do love the practice, though. Pity the phrase "foot adoration" doesn't have the same "ring" to it.

quote:

however i also fear him in the more common usage of the term, in that i do view him as a potential source of danger.


The question, for me, is mostly whether the fear is directed at him or at his actions. Either way is fine with me, really, and I can get how either of the two can work for some people, but the former wouldn't work for me in my current relationship.

quote:

it is natural of course to fear the consequences of one's actions, as in a physical punishment, and i have a healthy fear of that as well. but perhaps the difference with us is that my Master does punish for the small infringements as well as the large ones, so that it forces me to second think nearly every action and therefore i am pretty much constantly nervous and fearful.


This makes sense, as such, and I can see how fear can be useful in maintaining attention, mindfulness and a constant awareness that one is a slave, and not on equal footing with the other party. I also think I could employ, and enjoy, this strategy in a session, though I'm not sure if I would be comfortable with it in a lifestyle dynamic. I'm glad it works for the two of you, obviously. [:)]

quote:

i also know him well enough to know that he has a fierce temper, and if i make a small mistake on the wrong day (say a day when he had 3 deadlines to meet at work or was caught in traffic for 2 hrs), then the punishment will be much more severe than it would be otherwise.


Interesting that you should mention that. Most people in the community consider it "wrong" for a Master to take out their anger on a slave, while I've always been of the opinion that this would depend on the relationship dynamic in question. I'm not sure that it would be healthy in the long term, but I'm pretty sure there are people who could deal with it, as you seem to be doing; also, in a Master / slave dynamic, unless it's an agreed-upon relationship limit, I don't see anything wrong with it.

Personally, I prefer to keep anger out of the equation with regard to punishments and such. Being caught in traffic for 2 hrs might very well be something I'd want to vent with a bit of torture, just as I'd like to have my feet pampered if I'd been walking around all day, but I keep a distinction between punishments and my own indulgences. If I decide to torture neph for fun, or for venting, I make sure she knows I am doing that for my sake, not because she's done anything to deserve it; similarly, if I punish her for something, I make sure she knows that she's being punished and what for, and subdue any anger before starting. But, as I said, that's just the way I do it, and the way that works for us.

quote:

i cannot rest easy with the knowledge that "oh, he will only do such and such" because the truth is i can't guess what he will do or what his reaction will be.


I don't generally have specific punishments laid out for a particular offense, although I do have a general guideline as to the severity. However, the severity is always beyond the regular limits, so there's no sense of "resting easy" or "he will 'only' do" anyway.

quote:

my Master feels this state....of unease and fear always bubbling just beneath the surface...is a healthy one in which to keep a slave.


I can certainly see the appeal, and the uses, although I don't think I'd employ it on a lifestyle basis with anyone. I'm glad it works for you and your Master, though. [:)]



Aswad -> RE: "Punishment"???? (5/8/2007 5:59:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver

As mature adults, you'd think we would be capable of being perfect!


I may be a hopelessly hardened cynic, as some have called me, but I've just seen too much evidence that "mature adults" aren't always "mature", aren't always "adult", and never are "perfect".

quote:

Punishment is never just beating me silly.  It is a lot of talking, a lot of self-searching, a lot of discussion and build up, finished off with whatever punishment is decided upon in order to reinforce what we talked about and allow me to deal with the consequence of my actions.


Not that I'm necessarily advocating beating you silly, but providing the response as close to the behaviour in time as possible is generally considered vital in terms of causing an aversive association and subsequent behavioural alteration.

That is why people can wake up with the Hangover From Hell™ every time they drink, and yet never end up with an aversion to drinking, while vomiting a single time after eating or drinking a particular foodstuff, even if the reason is unrelated, will often cause the person to have an aversion toward that foodstuff from that point onwards.

quote:

Punishent is a TYPE of communication.


Interesting point. Thank you for providing this angle.

quote:

Well, maybe.  But some of those threads, the OPs are wankers.


Or just looking to engage in the "bad girl-spank spank" kink but are out of ideas, or want to try something new while not being very inspired at the time.



Aswad -> RE: "Punishment"???? (5/8/2007 6:05:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressFL

My goal is to never have to punish anyone, I hate it in fact, however, there are times when I must and I will punish.


In this regard we are the same, although I do use corporeal punishment. I don't like doling it out, however, particularly since mine go beyond what we'd do as a part of sadistic play.

quote:

I personally have a hard time wrapping my head around situations where the only time physical pain is inflicted is when the person has done something incorrect and is being punished.


I don't "get" this either, and concur with your assessment of the reasons involved. I will inflict pain when I feel like doing so, and perform punishments when called for.

quote:

In addition the person inflicting the pain at those times actually enjoys doing it and looks forward to when the person makes mistakes.


That's an interesting point that I hadn't thought about. Thank you for making it.

It would seem this would probably be counterproductive to behaviour modification, as well as possibly being a subconscious incentive to start "looking for" the mistakes in an escalating manner.



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