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Safe Words - 4/30/2007 9:52:26 PM

Red82

Posts: 79
Joined: 4/13/2007
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Ahh the wonderful countless threads on safewords. Hopefully mine has not been over done in the past.

Simply put, i dont like them.

"Your crazy", Safe sane consentual all that jazz.....i know, i know...

Of course, communication and negotiation still very important. Even more important when you dont like to use safewords. This also goes into what could probably be another thread, i dont want to be with a Top, i want to be with a Mistress.

Without really going into what i mean about that last statement, condensed version, i need someone who is more than comfortable doing what they are doing, and they need to be able to read me very well in order to not play with safewords.

So, the reason i dont like them.......

I dont want her NOT to push me and my limits simply because i was too scared to have them pushed.

Ok, thoughts, opinions?

Post #: 1

RE: Safe Words - 4/30/2007 10:20:41 PM

Najakcharmer

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Safewords serve three useful functions.

1. They allow two people to share the responsibility for how well a scene goes and how safe it is and how much fun both people have.

2. They are a form of effective communication when something isn't working ideally, especially when two people don't know each other very well and are playing for the first time.

3. They allow a sub or a bottom to retain a greater degree of control over what is happening. This can be a positive thing for some people and some scenes, and a negative thing for others.

It is neither intrinsically good nor intrinsically bad to play either with or without safewords. They are a useful tool, especially for new players and for players who are new to each other, but they can also detract from the element of genuine submission. Of course it can be debated just how wise it is to genuinely submit without reservation, limits or safeword to someone you don't know and trust.

There certainly are dominants who may be a bit overenthusiastic or who may overrate their own capacity for doing something safely. "Inverted bondage suspension with asphyxiation breath play and branding with red hot cattle irons sounds like fun....and what could possibly go wrong? I've read three entire Gor novels and played online in chatrooms for months now....." So there may be times that it would be wise to play with reasonable limits and safewords in place until you have come to know and trust your partner's level of skill, experience and general common sense.

(in reply to Red82)

Post #: 2

RE: Safe Words - 4/30/2007 10:32:56 PM

Red82

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Joined: 4/13/2007
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Absoulutly. And precisly why communication and negotiation is very important. The end goal, of course, is to be with someone long enough to be able to read the other without a spoken word.

And no, i would not play that extreme with someone i did not know that well. They would hear not only some safe words, but probably some very unsafe and rude words spouting from my mouth the minute i see the branding iron.

Seriously though, yes, they serve their purpose for some. i am not saying they are not good things to have, just i prefer not to have them, and one day hopefully, i wont.

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Post #: 3

RE: Safe Words - 4/30/2007 11:25:39 PM

Najakcharmer

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There is a great deal of difference between a domme who pushes your limits because she chooses to, with wisdom, skill and caring, and a domme who pushes your limits because she has lousy aim with a singletail and not enough common sense to refrain from using one on a live person until her aim improves.

Like most experienced dommes, I'd probably be willing to scene with you with no safeword if I was convinced that you were physically and emotionally healthy and able to give that level of consent. Depending on how I read your responses and how the energy of the scene went, I might even push your limits and scare the crap out of you. But you would be kept absolutely safe, physically and emotionally, to the best of my ethics and ability. Is that something like what you're looking for?

(in reply to Red82)

Post #: 4

RE: Safe Words - 5/1/2007 12:58:07 AM

aidan

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Wow Red, you been sneaking into the diary I never write in?

Safewords have always seemed very artificial and weird to me. Playing with somebody I didn't trust enough to effectively communicate with, be able to read and to read me as well, seems kind of silly. Red put it best, man. I'm not a "bottom", I don't want a "Top".

And Najakcharmer, I think you hit the nail on the head in that last part of your post.

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Post #: 5

RE: Safe Words - 5/1/2007 1:20:46 AM

MaamJay

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I'm in agreement with Najakcharmer. Safewords have a place in initial play between people. I prefer the red-orange system, where I tell a sub I will play till I hear an orange, so make sure you say it when you need to! This then leaves Me in control, I can choose to back off a bit, or I can choose to stay at that level and see if their tolerance changes, or I could choose to push further till I hear red. Most usually I back off a bit and then build them up again ... almost always they go past that original orange level to a higher level before they say orange again. At which point I might repeat the process, or I might decide it's time to back right off and tell them how much further they went, praising them for letting Me push their limits a little. This builds trust so, over time, W/we might get to the point where safewords are redundant. My sub side is definitely at that point with Master, but then, W/we have lived together 24/7 and i know He reads me like a book!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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Post #: 6

RE: Safe Words - 5/1/2007 2:05:59 AM

canupleaseme

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I have found having a safeword for us to be very helpful. Although the only time he has ever used it has been if I have been tickling him for fun

I doo feel like I can go about my business with him and push as much as I want to saftely becasue I know if i go too far he will say it. I think the safeword keeps us both safe we both know we will know if we are doing something wrong or too much. Id certainlt say as well that the more we have played together and the closer we have become its very unlikely i would do something to him that wouldmake him use it now anyway. I can normally judge whats happening by reading how he is behaving.

I think its important to have something in place for when you are scening especially in new situations or with new toys.

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Post #: 7

RE: Safe Words - 5/1/2007 2:19:12 AM

LadyPact

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I think I get the understanding of where the OP is going, but it would be unwise to think that you can jump past the beginning to get to the comfortable spot. It would be great to have that kind of understanding, mentally, physically, and emotionally with a sub, not to have any use for a safeword. The thing is, you don't really get to fast forward to that space in a relationship. Either way, I'd rather have the safeword in place, and never need to use it, rather than need it and not have one in place.

(in reply to canupleaseme)

Post #: 8

RE: Safe Words - 5/1/2007 2:22:19 AM

WilliamWizer

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Joined: 3/19/2007
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It doesn't matter how experienced we are. something can go wrong and we need our subs to be able to warm us about it so we need to use safewords. I don't want to injure or kill a sub because she was unable to tell me that she wasn't able to breath or something like that.
as canupleaseme says usually one we can tell what's happening by reading how the sub is behaving but I don't think that is enough. it's better to keep a way of comunication in case the sub needs to stop. remember she may be a slave but this is consensual slavery. we need to let her say stop at any moment.

_____________________________

There's only two rules for a sub:
- she can do anything her Master didn't forbid her.
- she only needs to do what her Master told her to do.

(in reply to canupleaseme)

Post #: 9

RE: Safe Words - 5/1/2007 2:34:20 AM

canupleaseme

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WilliamWiser I agree definatly. I only feel safe enough to read him like I do becasue I know that if I get it wrong he will tell me.
I remeber when we were at the beginning of our relationship and he confided in me that he was worried that if he ever did have to use the safeword he would feel like he shouldnt if I looked like I was really enjoying myself. I told him that was very silly and that he should always use it.
This happened the following week. I misjudged with the flogger and caught him keenly on his balls and never even realised. He was in pain but didnt want to say his word becasue he thought I was having so much fun. When he told me after while we were snuggled up I cried and felt terrible.
After a good long chat he understood that by not telling me when he needs to about something or stopping himself use the safe word its stopping us having reall happy safe bang on fun. Knowing I had hurt him quite badly without that intention and he felt he coudlnt tell me mad me feel like a shit Domme and we dont want that lol so our safe words always in place and he knows he is safe to use it and doesnt want to make me feel like that again

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Post #: 10

RE: Safe Words - 5/1/2007 2:43:12 AM

WilliamWizer

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thank you canupleaseme but you misspelled my name. I'm not wiser. it's wizer.

_____________________________

There's only two rules for a sub:
- she can do anything her Master didn't forbid her.
- she only needs to do what her Master told her to do.

(in reply to canupleaseme)

Post #: 11

RE: Safe Words - 5/1/2007 2:47:39 AM

canupleaseme

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Lol my apologies

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Post #: 12

RE: Safe Words - 5/1/2007 2:53:39 AM

Domin8tingUrDrmz

Posts: 1269
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From: Portland Metro, Oregon
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It takes time for a relationship to develop to a stage of reading body language alone. When a relationship is in it's early stages, body language can easily be misinterpreted. If you wiggled around while you were being whipped, that could be interpreted as; I'm having fun and want to see if you can hit a moving target, it could be interpreted as, ouch! that really hurts! please stop!, and I'm sure it could be interpreted countless other ways. Without a safeword or signal in place how am I to know which way to interpret that response?

Some people show emotions differently than others, the whole wiggling example above, it can be interpreted in more than one way because it can actually mean more than one thing. Until I know your body language and your ability to express yourself with facial expressions or other methods, then safewords are good to have.

< Message edited by Domin8tingUrDrmz -- 5/1/2007 2:54:46 AM >

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Post #: 13

RE: Safe Words - 5/1/2007 3:17:52 AM

MaamJay

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Just want to add that while Master and i no longer use formal safewords, He knows that if something feels wrong to me, i will simply say so. And i know that He will hear me and believe me. i've said things like "Master, my left arm is going numb" when in bondage and He has responded by fixing the problem, so i know He will respond appropriately and i feel safe. But that comes from living 24/7 with Him for 3 years and building that level of trust. And if for some reason He didn't seem to hear me, i know i could always yell "RED! Damn You! RED" and He'd sure as hell take notice LOL!

As a Domme I agree with canupleaseme, it feels like hell if You do accidentally hurt someone more than intended and they don't say so till later! I say to subs "I don't want any dead heroes, just living fun toys ... so speak up!" I do find that preparing a new sub by explaining that I want to find where their CURRENT tolerance limit is by playing until I hear them say "Orange!" really helps in that they understand (a) they'd better say it or it's gonna get worse!, (b) there's no shame in saying it because I am expecting it and (c) it's only their current limit, I'm not precluding the possibility of taking them further in the future. So they don't seem to feel like a failure for saying it, and they also appreciate that it leaves Me in control, which is what they want. I also agree with Domin8ting in that it can be hard to read body language until You really know someone. And even when You think You know, it pays to check! I try to do so within the context of the scene ... for eg, in response to such a wiggle I might say "Hmmmm, wanting more are we? Tell Me if you want more".

Good thread!
Maam Jay aka violet[A]

_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

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Post #: 14

RE: Safe Words - 5/1/2007 3:21:15 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
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Domin8, We seem to agree on a variety of topics this morning. It's early enough here in GA.... What is One ir Oregon doing up at this hour? *laughs*

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Post #: 15

RE: Safe Words - 5/1/2007 5:38:29 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
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I wouldn't play with someone who didn't want a stopword or slowword when we started out.

I can't read someone's mind, I can't tell what's going on with his body -- it is unfair and unwise to assume I can either of those things.

As for open communication, that's great but at some point a sub might enter into a headspace where open communication becomes difficult. Being drilled in using a stopword can become second nature when words fail. The words aren't substitutes for communication merely another form of it.

Plus if someone says "no" to me or "stop" or other signal words that in vanilla life mean what they say, in my Ds life they just feel like attempts to push me to go further and harder. I consider them a challenge and almost naturely respond by turning up things. There are many times with a slave that I will say "tell me to stop, beg me to stop" only to smile and reply "not your choice anymore" and then do what I wish.

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(in reply to Najakcharmer)

Post #: 16

RE: Safe Words - 5/1/2007 5:44:59 AM

Domin8tingUrDrmz

Posts: 1269
Joined: 4/8/2006
From: Portland Metro, Oregon
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I wake up at odd hours...arthritis is a B**** when the weather is chilly.

edited because I forgot the difference between whether and weather

< Message edited by Domin8tingUrDrmz -- 5/1/2007 5:46:37 AM >

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Post #: 17

RE: Safe Words - 5/1/2007 7:33:27 AM

pixelslave

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Joined: 8/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

even when You think You know, it pays to check! I try to do so within the context of the scene ... for eg, in response to such a wiggle I might say "Hmmmm, wanting more are we? Tell Me if you want more".

That is always sooo hot! Mistress loves it when I beg for more!

I like having the "Green, Yellow, Red" safeword system in place until one gets to really know another and their Mistress can read them very well.

My Mistress will end a scene when she feels I've had enough regardless of whether I've used a safe-word or not. That's partly because we're in a new relationship and partly because I very easily go into sub-space and she says I can't be relied upon to really say where I'm at. So she prefers to play it safe until until she has gained further experience with me and then she'll be starting to push those limits a bit harder. Apparently I tend to babble incoherently even though in my mind what I'm saying makes perfect sense. LOL!

- pixel

< Message edited by pixelslave -- 5/1/2007 7:35:09 AM >

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Post #: 18

RE: Safe Words - 5/1/2007 10:24:04 AM

Red82

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Suppose i should have been a bit more specific.

I do not play with someone new without the safeword, a very simple red does it for me.

My end state, and where i like it, is not to have one, i.e being with someone long enough to not need one. The example earlier of "my left arm is numb" should suffice.

Hope this is coming out right, just woke up.

(in reply to pixelslave)

Post #: 19

RE: Safe Words - 5/1/2007 10:30:40 AM

MsKatHouston

Posts: 1909
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From: Houston, TX
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When I use safewords, I use red. I prefer though, not to use one at all but instead just use words when necessary. If you say stop I will stop and don't get too into the "I'm saying no, but I mean yes" stuff. This is something I communicate with my partner and we gel. For anyone I am playing with casually, though, or new people, I use the standard stop light words, sans green. I hate it when someone does that but that's just a personal pet peeve of mine.

_____________________________

-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

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Post #: 20

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