RE: not another US guns thread

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: not another US guns thread

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: not another US guns thread

Page: << < prev 1 2 3 [4]

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: not another US guns thread - 5/3/2007 11:12:33 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crush

Actually, it isn't in the US Constitution, but in the Second Amendment.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

A good discussion of the various interpretations is in Wikipedia at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

My read, based on my own research into the Federalist Papers and other such documents: I have the right, as granted by the 2nd Amendment, and it shall not be infringed.

Are you a member of a "well regulated militia"?

Does "the people" refer to the private citizen or the collective citizenry organised in a well regulated militia?

Was the amendment about private firearms ownership or about making sure states could field armed resistance if the British came back for another try?

You may construe the second amendment to permit unregulated private ownership but, given the time in history it was written, the words of the amendment are pretty ambiguous, especially applied to the modern situation, which the framers of the amendment could not have anticipated.

Anyway, the OP asked for a discussion not specific to the USA and presuming NO such amendment as a basis for argument. Why did you bring it up?

Z.

Zensee, I'm a member of a Militia.
I was asked to join about a year after I moved here and made friends.
And, we're all Military Veterans so I guess we're pretty "well regulated" and of course , trained. There's 6 of us.
And all of us own Assault Rifles. As well as many other weapons.
We shoot at a Range every two months or so.
And, some wealthy guys actually own Patton Battle Tanks.
I saw that on t.v. "Discovery" I think.
You can look it up on the internet.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 5/3/2007 11:15:38 PM >

(in reply to Zensee)

Post #: 61

RE: not another US guns thread - 5/4/2007 1:26:40 AM

MsMacComb

Posts: 808
Joined: 3/30/2005
From: My Mothers womb.
Status: offline

I believe our love affair with guns had something to do with our trying to establish independance from your government a couple hundred years ago. From "King George" of old to "King George" of new (meaning Bush) a lunatic always lurks in the shadows that wants to take away our rights. Guns equalize their efforts. :)
(And no, Bush is not GOP, he's a neocon. Major difference.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

So what it seems to boil down to is fear of others and a perceived need to control others arising from that.

Why then, are we all so frightened of one another? I'm asking that from the point of view of the UK, where we dont have guns remember. I want to take the debate away from the US circumstances specifically, so that we can try to get to the heart of the issue.

E

_____________________________

Not looking for anyone for anything, any time.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 62

RE: not another US guns thread - 5/4/2007 1:49:14 AM

Vendaval

Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline

I must disagree. It is during times such as these that we most need satire and irony.
Where would we be without the razor sharp wit of Matt Stone and Trey Parker?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
Slippery slope.

When you start banning gun type A, it is only a matter of time until they start wanting to ban gun type B.

Eventually, Kenny is shot by a TSA person as a terrorist trying to take a nail file on an airplane.

Sinergy

p.s. Maybe I should stop watching so much South Park.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
To bring South Park around to the OP.

I think it would be idiotic to give 4th graders a bunch of guns and beer.

On the other hand, being an idiot is not a crime in the United States.

Q.E.D.

Sinergy

(format edit)

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 63

RE: not another US guns thread - 5/4/2007 4:12:30 AM

Twinkerbelle

Posts: 6
Joined: 5/2/2007
Status: offline

Providing the measures in place to control gun owner ship are the best possible and are regulated correctly and thoroughly then there is no reason to not allow people to carry guns.

(in reply to Vendaval)

Post #: 64

RE: not another US guns thread - 5/4/2007 4:24:56 AM

Crush

Posts: 1031
Status: offline

Twinkerbelle,

I'd add to what you say is that there have to be penalties in place for the misuse of guns as well that are enforced.
Actions require consequences. And rather than control gun ownership, would you allow a friendly amendment to "allow lawful purchase of guns" ?

(in reply to Twinkerbelle)

Post #: 65

RE: not another US guns thread - 5/4/2007 4:54:33 AM

Twinkerbelle

Posts: 6
Joined: 5/2/2007
Status: offline

Sure ok i'll go with 'allowing lawful gun ownership' but still there has to an element of control in it whether the citizen likes it or not. Allowing lawful gun ownership or controlled gun ownership boils down to pretty much the same thing. There is an element of 'control' in everything we do !

(in reply to Crush)

Post #: 66

RE: not another US guns thread - 5/4/2007 5:03:01 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

"whether the citizen likes it or not."

Huh?

Go read: Magna Carta, Declaration of Independence, Your State Constitution, Articles of Confederation, and the US Constitution.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Twinkerbelle)

Post #: 67

RE: not another US guns thread - 5/4/2007 5:07:53 AM

Twinkerbelle

Posts: 6
Joined: 5/2/2007
Status: offline

Ok what those things state and reality are two different things.
You name me one area of your life that you and you alone have control over?

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 68

RE: not another US guns thread - 5/4/2007 5:10:32 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

"You name me one area of your life that you and you alone have control over?"

What you choose to pay attention to.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Twinkerbelle)

Post #: 69

RE: not another US guns thread - 5/4/2007 5:20:33 AM

Twinkerbelle

Posts: 6
Joined: 5/2/2007
Status: offline

Ok so you choose to pay attention to the declaration of independence. Is there no outside control on why you do this? Such as parental influence, outside influence etc?
You watch a film and pay attention. Is there nothing controlling why you watched and payed attention? Such as your favourite actress is in it? Its about your fave hobby?
You read a book and pay attention. Is there nothing controlling your attention to the book? Like the book is well written? The book is about a new bdsm technique you want to learn?

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 70

RE: not another US guns thread - 5/4/2007 5:43:33 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

In EVERY instance you've cited, you, and NO ONE ELSE have made the CHOICE to pay attention to "Reading an historical document", "a film", or "Reading any other book".

The question asked was: "You name me one area of your life that you and you alone have control over?"
And your examples support my answer. No one but YOU controls what you CHOOSE to pay attention to.

It may be the ONLY thing one really does have control over.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Twinkerbelle)

Post #: 71

RE: not another US guns thread - 5/4/2007 5:48:41 AM

Twinkerbelle

Posts: 6
Joined: 5/2/2007
Status: offline

No what i have said does not back you up, it says you may choose but your choices are always controlled by other influences. There is a big difference between choice and control.

Edited to add i never mentioned choice in my question i mentioned control.

< Message edited by Twinkerbelle -- 5/4/2007 5:49:59 AM >

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 72

RE: not another US guns thread - 5/4/2007 5:52:16 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

Perhaps those who experience a lack of CONTROL over their CHOICES would find a course in Mindfulness Meditation useful.

Or perhaps some Ritalin.

Different strokes for different folks.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Twinkerbelle)

Post #: 73

RE: not another US guns thread - 5/4/2007 5:58:08 AM

Twinkerbelle

Posts: 6
Joined: 5/2/2007
Status: offline

I'm not talking about lack of control in people, but that everything we do is influenced by other things, people, experiences we may have had. Whilst we make our own choices they are not without outside controlling influences.
Coming back to the actual point of the thread i have seen time and again people state that it is their constitutional right to carry a gun. Fair enough, so it is but even that choice then to carry one is partly controlled by the fact you have the right to do so.

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 74

RE: not another US guns thread - 5/4/2007 9:28:31 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

I can't believe that gun own so many firearms and expessially historical guns did make an extra effort to ensure their saftey.

His house was cased, someone that knew of the collection cased his neighborhood, they knew when his neighbors would be gone, and I happened to be there because I was visiting there from out of town. I was the only witness. I was washing dishes and saw them drive away with the safe in the back of the pickup truck... it filled the bed of the truck. I thought to myself, "How nice, they are going out camping or something" because the back of the truck had a few things (probably tool boxes to pull off the job) in it, two guys were sitting in the back with the "stuff". Those were the two I saw, the cops assumed there were 4 involved (which was why two were sitting in the back of the truck). Supposedly this was a floor safe, I do not know if it was bolted down, but they took off the front door to get it out, and it probably took all 4 of them to get it to the truck. I believe they did damage to the house if I remember correctly (this was about 15 years ago). So while I am happy that you demonstrate good gun keeping skills, if you have a really valuable collection, I would not show it to just everyone or brag about it.... that was what this guy did.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 5/4/2007 9:29:08 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Casie)

Post #: 75

RE: not another US guns thread - 5/4/2007 9:29:39 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

I think some may be confusing "The State" and "The People".
They are one and the same. There is no separation.
The state IS the People and The People are the state.

(in reply to Twinkerbelle)

Post #: 76

RE: not another US guns thread - 5/4/2007 9:34:59 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

I'm so glad the thread fulfilled its purpose before it turned into another discussion of the very things which, with the motivation of producing more light than heat, were specifically excluded in the OP.
E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 77

RE: not another US guns thread - 5/4/2007 9:37:59 AM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twinkerbelle
Coming back to the actual point of the thread i have seen time and again people state that it is their constitutional right to carry a gun. Fair enough, so it is but even that choice then to carry one is partly controlled by the fact you have the right to do so.

Are you falling into the "Constitutional Rights" trap?

There are no "Constitutional Rights". Our Rights come from Our Creator, and thus are unalienable.

The Constitution merely specifies some of those rights explicitly, so that the Federal Government won't forget.

So, to a believer in G-d, it's their G-d Given Right to own a pencil, gun, dog, etc. A "Right to keep and bear arms" is thus a SPECIFIC INSTANCE of the general case of a "G-d Given Right To Own Property".

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Twinkerbelle)

Post #: 78

RE: not another US guns thread - 5/4/2007 1:45:37 PM

Casie

Posts: 450
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

I can't believe that gun own so many firearms and expessially historical guns did make an extra effort to ensure their saftey.

His house was cased, someone that knew of the collection cased his neighborhood, they knew when his neighbors would be gone, and I happened to be there because I was visiting there from out of town. I was the only witness. I was washing dishes and saw them drive away with the safe in the back of the pickup truck... it filled the bed of the truck. I thought to myself, "How nice, they are going out camping or something" because the back of the truck had a few things (probably tool boxes to pull off the job) in it, two guys were sitting in the back with the "stuff". Those were the two I saw, the cops assumed there were 4 involved (which was why two were sitting in the back of the truck). Supposedly this was a floor safe, I do not know if it was bolted down, but they took off the front door to get it out, and it probably took all 4 of them to get it to the truck. I believe they did damage to the house if I remember correctly (this was about 15 years ago). So while I am happy that you demonstrate good gun keeping skills, if you have a really valuable collection, I would not show it to just everyone or brag about it.... that was what this guy did.

In this day and age if you have anything really nice in your home you shouldn't brag about it lol. People are valtures

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 79

RE: not another US guns thread - 5/4/2007 7:57:03 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

Military scholars started writing around the time of the Korean War that the days of occupation of a foreign country is doomed to failure as guerilla technology marches onward.

As the French proved in World War 2, the Germans had to be on 24/7 or take a bullet to the head. All the French Resistance had to do was wake up one morning and decide it was a nice day to string piano wire across the street for German motorcycle couriers.

Quite a few US administrations did not bone up on their history, hence we have Iraq, Somalia, Vietnam, etc.

This is the part I find so amusing about the Department of Homeland Security, taking my Vans off in the airport, and their drive to do retinal scans for access to the docks. I dont care how tightly you nail down the lid of the box of terrorism, if there is a will there is a way.

Maybe it is just me, but perhaps if we asked THESE PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT and not try to inflict our values and culture on them unasked, we would have a better chance of stopping terrorism.

This administration in particular and a lot of people in general seem to think that we can use technology to overcome terrorism. They are missing the point. The cynical part of me thinks they are missing the point because they want to provide a zillion dollars of taxpayer's money to people who dont have a clue how to fix the problem.

Just me, could be wrong, etc.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Casie)

Post #: 80

Page: << < prev 1 2 3 [4]

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: not another US guns thread

Page: << < prev 1 2 3 [4]

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.094