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Vendaval -> "Irish Protestant group pledges to disarm" (5/3/2007 5:31:46 PM)


"Irish Protestant group pledges to disarm"
 
By SHAWN POGATCHNIK, Associated Press Writer
Thu May 3, 4:43 PM ET

" DUBLIN, Ireland - The Ulster Volunteer Force, an underground Protestant army that terrorized Roman Catholics for decades and committed the bloodiest attack of the Northern Ireland conflict, renounced violence Thursday and promised to evolve into a force for good.

Leaders of the British territory's Catholic minority welcomed the surprise announcement. But they also expressed skepticism, given the UVF's hate-fueled past and criminal present as well as its breaches of its own 1994 cease-fire declaration.
The British, Irish and U.S. governments all called on UVF commanders to demonstrate their sincerity by surrendering weapons stockpiles, an act completed two years ago by the rival Irish Republican Army.

"This is a real end for the Ulster Volunteer Force," said Gusty Spence, the founding father of the UVF, who read the statement to a Belfast press conference. "The steps outlined today in this statement, I truly believe, will bring us closer to the peaceful, democratic, prosperous future that all our people deserve."

UVF members killed more than 400 Catholic civilians from 1966 to 1994, the year the group called an open-ended truce. It exploded four car bombs in the neighboring Republic of Ireland that killed 33 people on May 17, 1974 — the deadliest terror strike in four decades of sectarian bloodshed over Northern Ireland.

The UVF statement came just five days before a new Catholic-Protestant adminstration for Northern Ireland is scheduled to take office in Belfast, fulfilling the central dream of power-sharing contained in the Good Friday peace accord of 1998.
The group said Northern Ireland's position within the United Kingdom appeared secure because of the failure of the IRA campaign to end British control, so the UVF should help promote the best possible start for cross-community cooperation.
Spence said the UVF had abandoned recruiting, training and intelligence-gathering and all of its units "have been deactivated."

Spence, 73, said the group would "assume a non-military, civilianized role" in its working-class Protestant power bases beginning at midnight Thursday. He said it looked forward to working on community improvement projects with British government support.

Crucially, however, Spence said that while UVF commanders had placed the group's weapons "beyond reach" of its rank-and-file members, the UVF was not ready to surrender its arsenal to the disarmament program overseen by retired Canadian Gen. John de Chastelain.

De Chastelain, who since 1997 has been trying to persuade Northern Ireland's panoply of armed gangs to give up their weapons, said he was concerned that the UVF gave no firm commitment to open talks with him. The governments in Dublin, London and Washington backed the general.

"Today's commitments by the UVF signaling a fundamental change are very welcome. Words now need to be borne out with actions and we look forward to their full delivery," said Irish Prime Minister Bertie Ahern.

Paula Dobriansky, the U.S. envoy to Northern Ireland, said the UVF statement offered "a clear recognition that the people of Northern Ireland want peace and stability." She said UVF words must be followed "with concrete actions, including decommissioning" arms.

British security officials say the UVF today is relatively poorly armed with stocks of aged rifles, handguns and a few machine guns. They say the group's members might fear appearing fully unarmed — mainly because their numerous enemies in other Protestant gangs also haven't disarmed.

After the UVF's 1994 cease-fire, its members were implicated in about 20 killings, but it rarely mounted attacks on the Catholic community. Instead, it turned to deadly criminal feuds with UVF dissidents and racketeering rivals in other Protestant paramilitary groups.

In 2005, the International Monitoring Commission said the UVF killed four people as part of a wider campaign to crush a breakaway gang, the Loyalist Volunteer Force. The panel, which Britain and Ireland appointed to assess paramilitary behavior, also accused UVF members of shooting repeatedly at police and directing Protestant mob violence.

The panel's latest report, published April 25, said the UVF remained deeply involved in extortion, counterfeiting and petty assaults, but was withdrawing from drug dealing.

The UVF has killed about 540 people in all. UVF gangs abducted, tortured and killed lone Catholics after forcing bogus "confessions" of IRA membership. Other times, entire pubs in Catholic areas were bombed or sprayed with gunfire.
Spence, who was convicted of committing the UVF's first three murders in 1966, gained political sophistication and day-to-day contact with Catholics while behind bars.

He said Thursday that, with hindsight, much of what the UVF did was misguided and had consigned two generations to a spiral of tit-for-tat bloodshed.

"My whole life is strewn with regrets," he said. "

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070503/ap_on_re_eu/nireland_protestant_extremists;_ylt=Aj8EtM5FRehHgrMcCx_iee9vaA8F




NakedOnMyChain -> RE: "Irish Protestant group pledges to disarm" (5/3/2007 5:36:51 PM)

If it works, if it holds, it will be some of the more fantastic news I've heard in years.  Many of my friends will finally be able to go home.  I'm rightly doubtful, but I genuinely wish for peace between them.




popeye1250 -> RE: "Irish Protestant group pledges to disarm" (5/3/2007 5:44:14 PM)

Didn't Clinton say about ten years ago that he made peace in N.Ireland?




Vendaval -> RE: "Irish Protestant group pledges to disarm" (5/3/2007 6:01:18 PM)

That would be a wonderful development in a country long plagued
by violence.




NorthernGent -> RE: "Irish Protestant group pledges to disarm" (5/3/2007 10:51:41 PM)

Vendaval,

It's not what it seems in Northern Ireland. It's easy to get the impression that the whole place was/is in chaos.

In fact, it's a few streets of idiots on both sides. As always, the vast majority just want to get on with their lives.

These paramilitaries - both loyalists and republicans - they ceased being political factions a long time ago, they're both a pack of gangsters running drugs and guns in their respective areas.

It goes to show though, violence is never the answer. Between them, they killed a lot of people and got nowhere. They actually start talking to each other and the republicans now have a say in the running of the country.




popeye1250 -> RE: "Irish Protestant group pledges to disarm" (5/3/2007 11:00:06 PM)

Gent, it was that way when I was in Derry a few years back.
People just want to get on with their lives.
Like you said there were a few "off limits" neighborhoods and the Police stations looked like fortresses there but things were pretty much normal day to day.




Vendaval -> RE: "Irish Protestant group pledges to disarm" (5/4/2007 12:38:07 AM)

NG and Popeye,
 
I had heard that the violence had much decreased over the last several years and that the IRA
had submitted weapons stockpiles a few years ago.  I am glad that the majority of the people
want ordinary lives free from such violence.




seeksfemslave -> RE: "Irish Protestant group pledges to disarm" (5/4/2007 12:58:36 AM)

This UVF force was nothing more than a bunch of muderous psychotic thugs, as were many members of the IRA.

Point of info. Sinn Fein is in fact an avowed Socialist Party. Did Gerry Adams emphasise that on his visits to the USA ?




Vendaval -> RE: "Irish Protestant group pledges to disarm" (5/4/2007 2:05:04 AM)

I cannot say what Gerry Adam spoke about here, seeks.
 
Try a search on your browser for more information.




LadyEllen -> RE: "Irish Protestant group pledges to disarm" (5/4/2007 2:27:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Vendaval,

It's not what it seems in Northern Ireland. It's easy to get the impression that the whole place was/is in chaos.

In fact, it's a few streets of idiots on both sides. As always, the vast majority just want to get on with their lives.

These paramilitaries - both loyalists and republicans - they ceased being political factions a long time ago, they're both a pack of gangsters running drugs and guns in their respective areas.

It goes to show though, violence is never the answer. Between them, they killed a lot of people and got nowhere. They actually start talking to each other and the republicans now have a say in the running of the country.


Exactly. Dont anyone in the US be under any impression that either side was manned by gloriously noble and heroic freedom fighters - it was rather the case that both sides' ranks were packed out with the absolute detritus of society; people who would likely have been doing all the crimes they did in the name of the troubles, regardless of there having been any troubles.

Only point I would question is the whole "deciding to give up the struggle and negotiate" thing. To my mind, the reason the violence was stopped on the IRA side was simply that they saw the future demographics of N Ireland; an increasing Catholic population (who are taken to be supporters of the cause) next to a declining Protestant population, making them the majority and so persuading them that the ballot box might be a better means of pursuing their ends.

The other point I'd make, is that to me at least, Sinn Fein and the Republican/ Catholic movement in general, always sounded the most sane and balanced of the two sides. The Loyalist/Protestant side always came across as akin to nazis - and any of their leaders that didnt, they got rid of.

Its also important to bear in mind I think, that for the rest of the UK (apart from Glasgow maybe) much of the troubles and their origins remain a mystery. It makes it much easier to condemn the IRA when the bulk of the population have no clue whatever about 17th and 18th century history and when so few realise that the IRA as we knew it was formed in response to attacks on Catholics who started peaceful marches for equal rights in the 1960s, inspired by the likes of Martin L King.

Lets hope that N Ireland continues to break from the past, in all ways.

E




seeksfemslave -> RE: "Irish Protestant group pledges to disarm" (5/4/2007 10:44:51 AM)

Points of info.
The IRA predates the 60's by quite a long way. back even to WW1 at least 
The 1916 Post Office incident, without checking I dont recall the details, is one of their "memorable" events

Edit in the following after looking at "sauces" An Irish revolution started in 1916 and the Post Office in Dublin was one of the strongholds of the revolutionaries. The Brit response was extremely brutal. Film still exists, and the revolutionaries surrendered in double quick time. Most leaders were executed except amongst others  de Valera who was American born

Paradoxicaly enough Brit. troops were sent into N Ireland in the 60's to defend the Catholic population. It wasn't long before the catholics started to attack the troops. Not clear why.

Vendeval asks me to check whether Gerry Adams emphasised the socialist nature of his mission in Ireland when on fund raising trips to the US. I was being mischievous MsV when asking the question. Without doing any checks at all I can be sure he did not bring out the socialist side of Sinn Fein.

US public support for Irish republicanism was emotionally based and greatly oversimplified the difficult political problems and almost certainly helped in carrying out terrorist bombing in mainland UK.
Does that fact surprise any US readers ?




NorthernGent -> RE: "Irish Protestant group pledges to disarm" (5/4/2007 1:12:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The other point I'd make, is that to me at least, Sinn Fein and the Republican/ Catholic movement in general, always sounded the most sane and balanced of the two sides. The Loyalist/Protestant side always came across as akin to nazis - and any of their leaders that didnt, they got rid of.



In complete agreement with this point. Those who run the loyalist lot appear to be on a different planet altogether - a pack of idiots marching 'round the streets celebrating a battle between Dutch/German and French soldiers. I mean, brains aren't it.

Someone mentioned the US support of Irish republicanism, Irish republicanism has had a lot of support from Englishmen/women over the centuries - Irish home rule was common parliamentary debate going back to the 19th century - possibly before.




meatcleaver -> RE: "Irish Protestant group pledges to disarm" (5/4/2007 1:18:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The other point I'd make, is that to me at least, Sinn Fein and the Republican/ Catholic movement in general, always sounded the most sane and balanced of the two sides. The Loyalist/Protestant side always came across as akin to nazis - and any of their leaders that didnt, they got rid of.



In complete agreement with this point. Those who run the loyalist lot appear to be on a different planet altogether - a pack of idiots marching 'round the streets celebrating a battle between Dutch/German and French soldiers. I mean, brains aren't it.



The Republicans might have sounded more sane but they killed more people. Republican history is just as mythic and fictional as Loyalist history. The whole lot of them were totally bananas.




NorthernGent -> RE: "Irish Protestant group pledges to disarm" (5/4/2007 2:02:56 PM)

I think the republicans had a point in the early years when they were actually fighting for Irish sovereignty.




seeksfemslave -> RE: "Irish Protestant group pledges to disarm" (5/4/2007 2:30:32 PM)

Iain Paisley was always totally logical. Just because he presented a message that Guardian readers dont agree with and lefties dont like and in a very srident tone doesnt make him bonkers.

For instance he appears to have accepted the power sharing that is about to be implemented which I am sure in his heart of hearts he never thought he would live to see.




Vendaval -> RE: "Irish Protestant group pledges to disarm" (5/4/2007 2:40:44 PM)

I found a PBS (Public Broadcasting System) article relevant to the question, seeks.
 
Frontline: The IRA & Sinn Fein
America and the Conflict
By Kevin Cullen
   

The Irish diaspora, especially those who settled in the United States, have played an intregal part in the Troubles. But their influence, both for good and bad, has generally been exaggerated.


However impressive it sounds to say that there are, according to the 1990 U.S. Census, some 40 million Irish-Americans, the reality is that most of them think IRA stands for an Individual Retirement Account.

It is true that a small portion of Irish-Americans have always supported the Irish Republican Army, but the importance of the money they raised and the weapons they procurred for the republican movement tended to be exaggerated - mostly by the British, Irish and American governments in an attempt to persuade Americans not to contribute to IRA support groups.

For years, republican leaders acknowledged what they really wanted was American political influence to put pressure on the British government to seek a settlement. But that influence, especially in the White House, was withheld as long as the IRA was determined to carry on its violent campaign unconditionally. As the leadership of Sinn Fein sought to distance itself from violence, however, many Irish-American supporters of the IRA remained wedded to the idea that only violence would bring about a united Ireland. As the republican movement became increasingly sophisticated politically, there was no corresponding political change among most of the IRA's traditional supporters in the United States.

For a quarter century, the IRA attracted a core of followers in the United States who were loyal and dedicated but incapable of delivering the kind of political support that came to be seen as essential in bringing about the IRA ceasefires, first in 1994, then in July 1997. Part of the problem is that American supporters were often as right-wing as the Provisionals were left-wing.
Bernadette Devlin scandalized IRA supporters in Boston in the early 1970s when she announced that she was more comfortable with blacks in Roxbury than she was with Irish-Americans in South Boston. The domination of the support groups by older, more conservative Irish-Americans made it impossible to form coalitions with younger, more radical activists who worked for groups in Central America and South Africa.

In 1969, as TV images of Catholics being attacked were beamed back to Irish Catholic enclaves in Boston and New York, hats were literally passed around pubs from Southie to Woodside in Queens. Fundraising for the IRA, or at least for IRA prisoners, peaked whenever the British were seen to do something outrageous, such as when British soldiers shot 14 civil rights marchers dead on Bloody Sunday in 1972 or in 1981 when Margaret Thatcher allowed the hunger strikers to die. But the fundraising was dwarfed by the millions that were raised by the mainstream Irish charities, especially the American Ireland Fund. Contrary to popular belief, the IRA didn't rely on American money or weapons. And they couldn't rely on American political support, which was limited at the beginning of the Troubles and continued to shrink as the IRA campaign dragged on and most influential Irish-Americans, especially politicians, distanced themselves from the IRA.

Because many Sinn Fein leaders had served time for IRA activity, most of them were barred from entering the US, meaning the political development of the republican movement progressed at different paces on either side of the Atlantic. But while IRA support groups remained outside the political mainstream, a growing number of Irish-American politicians who were opposed to IRA violence became equally opposed to the status quo. More sophisticated and unwilling to be dismissed as IRA sympathizers, they challenged the British and Irish governments to do something to challenge the paramilitaries to put down their weapons.

At Tip O'Neill's urging, President Ronald Reagan encouraged Margaret Thatcher to try something new. In 1985, the Anglo-Irish Agreement, in which the Dublin government was given a say in the running of Northern Ireland in exchange for accepting that Northern Ireland would remain part of the United Kingdom until a majority living there voted otherwise, became the bedrock on which the current peace process was built.

For a decade, Dublin and London fine-tuned their diplomatic mission, but there was no hope of a settlement until the IRA and loyalist paramilitaries called a ceasefire. American influence was essential in helping to bring it about.

Bill Clinton, the first non-veteran to become president since the end of World War II, brought to his job a post-Cold War vision in which the U.S. State Department's hands-off policy in Northern Ireland, in deference to Britain's role as the U.S.'s most important military ally, didn't hold sway anymore. Clinton took an interest in Northern Ireland because he thought his administration could make a difference, and, of course, reap the political benefits if it did.

With John Hume's approval, Clinton's decision in early 1994 to grant Gerry Adams, the Sinn Fein leader, a visa in the face of fierce British opposition convinced many in the IRA leadership that the American card could be played to hold the British to negotiations.

While Adams and other charismatic republicans have gotten most of the attention in America, it is the SDLP leader whose opinion matters the most in the real corridors of power in Washington. It was Hume who assured Ted Kennedy who assured Bill Clinton that the Adams visa would pay off down the road. It appeared to when, in August 1994, the IRA called an unconditional ceasefire. But Protestant unionists in Northern Ireland never believed the IRA was sincere. In fact, the IRA continued to train and target, leading Adams to famously note that, "They haven't gone away." To some, this was a realistic plea for engagement, to others a threat. British Prime Minister John Major, depending on unionist votes to keep his fragile government in power, was never able to convene all-party talks, insisting with the unionists that the IRA had to begin disarming first. Convinced they were being toyed with, and worried about dissidents in its own ranks, the IRA went back to war in February 1996.

When they came to the US after their own ceasefire in October 1994, loyalists were stunned by the welcome they got from Irish Americans. "I thought they were all Provos," Joe English, the former loyalist paramilitary leader admitted at Boston College. He and other loyalists had believed the myth that most Irish Americans were IRA sympathizers. That myth, no doubt delayed by years the development of a real peace process.

Mainstream unionists are more suspicious of American involvement, spotting closet nationalists at every turn. But even they have begun to routinely travel to Washington to seek support. Ulster Unionist leader David Trimble announced that during a White House conversation this month, President Clinton assured him that the IRA would not get a third bite at the apple. But there is a quid pro quo: the White House expects Trimble to stay in the talks and make a good-faith effort to reach a settlement.

Tony Blair's overwhelming majority, and willingness to put arms decommissioning to the side, produced another IRA ceasefire in July, this time with America's influence playing far less of a role. Given that George Mitchell, the former US Senate Majority Leader from Maine, is the chairman of the ongoing talks in Belfast, American influence continues. But diminishing American influence could actually signal a sophistication and maturity to the peace process. In fact, while the Clinton administration has pledged support, it has acknowledged for the last few years that it is up to the British and Irish governments and the various parties on the ground in Northern Ireland to sort out their differences and reach a compromise. If the Irish, the British and the two traditions in Northern Ireland can demonstrate an ability to carve out a settlement, the Americans will become less relevant, all for the good.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Kevin Cullen has been a reporter for The Boston Globe since 1985. In August 1997 he opened the Globe's Dublin bureau, which marked the first time a major American newspaper has based a staff reporter in Ireland. For more than a decade, Cullen has traveled to Northern Ireland several times each year, writing about the conflict. He has spent more time in, and written more about, Northern Ireland than any reporter for an American newspaper. In 1995, he was awarded a citation of excellence by the Overseas Press Club of America in the interpretive reporting category for his coverage of Northern Ireland.

Cullen is a regular contributor to Fortnight, a Belfast-based magazine on politics and the arts, and is a frequent commentator about Anglo-Irish affairs on National Public Radio and BBC radio. His work on Ireland has appeared in numerous American and European magazines and papers. A Boston native, he was graduated summa cum laude from the University of Massachusetts at Amherst and studied at Trinity College, Dublin. "

New Content Copyright © 1998 PBS and WGBH/Frontline
[image]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/art/pbs.gif[/image]
document.write(sidenavsub);

 
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/reports/america.html

 
(format edit)
 




seeksfemslave -> RE: "Irish Protestant group pledges to disarm" (5/4/2007 3:16:44 PM)

I wonder if I might be the only CM poster to read that in its entirety MsV and as far as  my knowledge serves which may be inaccurate I can only make two points....

I find it very difficult to believe that a Unionist or Loyalist ie anti IRA representative. got a good reception in of all places Boston.Maybe Popeye knows ?

I also think it underestimates the effect of public US financial support  to the IRA , allowing  the IRA  for example to purchase arms and Semtex from  Chekoslovakia (sp?)

My understanding is that after 9/11 those contributions were stopped officially at least but at the same time Blair decided to concede much to the Republicans.

I have no strong views either way about Ireland but I think it is acknowledged that had the UK govnt not intervened from the 60's onwards a Civil War was almost inevitable. That intervention cost the UK taxpayer as has the Iraq intervention lots of " lolly."




Vendaval -> RE: "Irish Protestant group pledges to disarm" (5/4/2007 3:22:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I wonder if I might be the only CM poster to read that in its entirety MsV and as far as  my knowledge serves which may be inaccurate I can only make two points....

Most likely a few insomniacs will read the whole article...


I find it very difficult to believe that a Unionist or Loyalist ie anti IRA representative. got a good reception in of all places Boston.Maybe Popeye knows ?

He is much more likely to know than I, since he lives on the East
Coast and I on the West Coast.  [;)]


I also think it underestimates the effect of public US financial support  to the IRA , allowing  the IRA  for example to purchase arms and Semtex from  Chekoslovakia (sp?)

My understanding is that after 9/11 those contributions were stopped officially at least but at the same time Blair decided to concede much to the Republicans.

Do you have some sources?  I am of course, curious.  [8|]

I have no strong views either way about Ireland but I think it is acknowledged that had the UK govnt not intervened from the 60's onwards a Civil War was almost inevitable. That intervention cost the UK taxpayer as has the Iraq intervention lots of " lolly."

"lolly"  as in "folly"?   [sm=meh.gif]   translation please! 






meatcleaver -> RE: "Irish Protestant group pledges to disarm" (5/4/2007 3:31:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

In 1969, as TV images of Catholics being attacked were beamed back to Irish Catholic enclaves in Boston and New York, hats were literally passed around pubs from Southie to Woodside in Queens. Fundraising for the IRA, or at least for IRA prisoners, peaked whenever the British were seen to do something outrageous, such as when British soldiers shot 14 civil rights marchers dead on Bloody Sunday in 1972 or in 1981 when Margaret Thatcher allowed the hunger strikers to die. But the fundraising was dwarfed by the millions that were raised by the mainstream Irish charities, especially the American Ireland Fund. Contrary to popular belief, the IRA didn't rely on American money or weapons. And they couldn't rely on American political support, which was limited at the beginning of the Troubles and continued to shrink as the IRA campaign dragged on and most influential Irish-Americans, especially politicians, distanced themselves from the IRA.



Hmm I think this is playing down the significance of American funds down somewhat. Thatcher tried to get Reagan to do something about it and was told he couldn't. Clinton also said he couldn't do anything about it. However, it appears Bush could after 9/11 when he started his war on terrorism, he just couldn't have Americans seen to be financing terrorism. There was no doubt that American funds financed large stocks of arms from Libya (yep Libya), the paper trail told the story.

Much as I don't like Thatcher, she didn't allow the hunger strikers to die, they chose to die themselves, more choice than what the terrorists (of both sides) gave their innocent victims.




seeksfemslave -> RE: "Irish Protestant group pledges to disarm" (5/4/2007 4:02:38 PM)

Vendaval:
Lolly = money.

With regard to sources to clarify how much financial support came to the IRA from the US,  I will have a look to see if I can find some

Note MC has confirmed my position so it must be true lol.




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