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Vendaval -> "Pro-independent party poised for win" (5/3/2007 5:36:54 PM)


"Pro-independence party poised for win"
 
By DAVID STRINGER, Associated Press Writer
Thu May 3, 4:17 PM ET

" EDINBURGH, Scotland - Scotland marks the 300th anniversary this week of its union with England to create Great Britain. Even as it observes that milestone, Scots are poised to hand a resounding election victory to a party that vows to dismantle the union.

For Treasury Chief Gordon Brown, the proud Scotsman preparing to succeed  Tony Blair as Britain's prime minister, there's a bitter irony: With his moment of triumph in sight, his homeland may be slipping from his grasp.

As voting got under way Thursday, the Scottish National Party was poised to sweep elections in Scotland's regional government, claiming a mandate to chart a path toward an eventual split. The party, which has pledged an independence referendum by 2010, dreams of an independent nation matching the economic successes of neighboring Ireland, rather than relying on heavy subsidies from London.

At the heart of the matter is the nature of nationhood at a time when the  European Union — an even broader umbrella — might be seen as a guarantor of peace and prosperity no less great than Britain. And while Scotland would not have automatic entry, few believe it wouldn't ultimately join the 27-member club.

There are significant economic subplots.

With independence, Scotland would control lucrative oil and natural gas reserves in the North Sea. The Scottish National Party also promises drastic corporate tax cuts that would attract foreign investment and, it claims, transform Scotland into a Tartan Tiger on a par with Ireland's Celtic Tiger.

Brown and the governing Labour Party, however, warn breaking free would wreck the Scottish economy. The territory lags behind England economically and benefits more from British public spending than it contributes in national taxes.

And it would be a humiliation for Labour to have presided over the breakup of Great Britain — even though the English and the Scots share a surprising antipathy.

Will a divorce take place? Perhaps not so fast. Despite the Scottish National Party's growing support, an independent Scotland may be far off.

Polls show that less than a third of Scots want to leave the union, and even Scottish National Party activists acknowledge rancor over Blair's 10-year premiership is helping their cause as much as a desire for independence. Fueling the party's success has been dissent over the Iraq war and domestic policies Scots feel have stunted economic growth.

A booming, independent Scotland is the vision party leader Alex Salmond sells to shopkeepers as he darts between stores in the border town of Selkirk, the spot where William Wallace, the famed patriot who resisted English occupation, was named guardian of Scotland — or de facto head of state — in 1298.

Unlike the legendary outlaw given Hollywood treatment in the movie "Braveheart," Salmond claims efficient governance will prove a Scotland ruled by his party can manage its affairs without interference from London.

"This is about having a chance to show what we can do as an administration," Salmond said. "Then, in 2010 we'll ask the voters of Scotland for their permission, in a referendum, to move forward to independence."

Polls suggest his party will claim the largest share of seats in Scotland's 129-member parliament and form a coalition government — probably with the Liberal Democrats, who have previously sided with governing Labour. Results of the ballot held every four years are expected in the early hours of Friday.

Labour has been the largest party since Scotland's parliament was established in 1999, following an overwhelming vote in favor of a domestic legislative body in 1997. It has never run second in a Scottish poll since 1955.

Scotland's parliament passes laws on education, health and justice, but London retains primacy on all matters relating to Britain as a whole — including defense, energy and foreign relations.

Actor Sean Connery is the Scottish National Party's leading celebrity supporter and claims "there will never be a better opportunity than now," to move toward independence, lending his distinct Scottish accent to a campaign video.

Convincing voters of the need for secession will take more than celebrity endorsements, pollsters say.

Salmond's chief foe will be Brown, who has launched an urgent defense of Great Britain, telling an Edinburgh rally any split would leave Scotland bankrupt and marginalized on the world stage.

Voters aiming to use Scottish elections to sting Blair will cause an enormous headache for his successor, said analyst Phil Cowley, handing him a neighbor who could undermine Brown's authority ahead of national polls in 2009 or 2010.

"He has always seen Scotland as his fiefdom," Cowley said. "When you do badly in the fiefdom, you suffer." "

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070503/ap_on_re_eu/britain_scotland;_ylt=AjQDG7CCpQyyZ7_l1xK8eL9vaA8F




LadyEllen -> RE: "Pro-independent party poised for win" (5/3/2007 9:16:14 PM)

An independent Scotland. As glorious and foolhardy an endeavour as a highland charge against massed ranks of red coats.

The other parties, aside from the Scottish Nationalists (SNP) have indicated time and again that division from the Union would be a disaster. Sure, they could feasibly obtain the oil revenues from the North Sea, but this is due to expire in the near to medium term, leaving the independent Scottish economy high and dry.

In addition, if Scotland wishes to import goods from overseas - it has the same taste as all of us for cheap goods from the Far East et al, it lacks the deepwater port capacity to handle it. Similarly with exports to the rest of the world (mainly whisky). It also lacks capacity in terms of airfreight. All of that could be remedied of course, but not quickly, and not without considerable expense and consequent undesirable effects on the free university educations, medical prescriptions, public transport et al, that the SNP promises. There is also a land border of course and a long motorway leading into England and thence to the continent - subject to Scottish hauliers paying a road toll in future for its use, I should imagine, way in excess of current UK road tax.

Then there is the question of defence. Many of the UK's nuclear armed submarines are based in Scotland, and since the Scots seem to believe this to be an imposition they dont want, it would not be beyond possibility that they would be transferred to an English port. After that, its true that Scotland provides a significant number of personnel for the UK armed forces and again likely that these would be transferred to a new Scottish army, for which the Scots would have to pay. Whether they also get the equipment paid for by the UK as a whole, is another question.

And the Scottish economy. One must ask, if the Scottish economy is so buoyant and able to fend for itself and furthermore pay for the benefits the Scots currently enjoy by way of their parliament's decisions by comparison to the English, just exactly why is it that there are so many Scots living and working in England? Surely there ought to be sufficient well paying jobs in Scotland according to the picture painted, that the situation should be reversed? The true position of the Scottish economy is shown in the disproportionately high number of Scottish personnel in the UK armed forces.

And lastly, for the moment, there is a situation which NorthernGent would enjoy so much that I'm surprised he isnt an SNP member himself. Of which country is queen Elizabeth the queen? Her legitimacy as sovereign depends on her connections, vague though they are, back to the Stuart house - the Scottish royal house. She could be queen of Scotland, but the dissolution of the union would mean she was no longer queen of England!

E




FatDomDaddy -> RE: "Pro-independent party poised for win" (5/3/2007 9:18:37 PM)

Maybe one day Ireland will be united as well

Hoo Rah, Hoo Rah
For Scotland's Rights Hoo Rah.
Hoo Rah for the bonnie blue flag
That bears St Andrew's Cross!




LadyEllen -> RE: "Pro-independent party poised for win" (5/3/2007 9:22:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Maybe one day Ireland will be united as well


Yep; that could be made to work, subject to them all not arguing too much about something the rest of us forgot about a long while ago.

Scotland though, I dont believe could. Or for that matter, since I didnt mention it earlier, could England make it on its own in my opinion.

E




Vendaval -> RE: "Pro-independent party poised for win" (5/4/2007 12:29:59 AM)

Thank you for your comments, Lady E.  I am hoping that more of the folks
from the UK will comment on this article.  It is new information for me at least.




meatcleaver -> RE: "Pro-independent party poised for win" (5/4/2007 1:08:49 AM)

The Nationalists will only be Scotland's largest party, they wouldn't have won over 50% of the votes, though Scotland leaving the Union has no relevance ton England other than a sentimental one. The population size and economic weight of Scotland is the same as Yorkshire and Scotland subsidized by English money. The nationalists are hoping to get EU money like Ireland but that won't happen, Ireland joined at the right time. The real problem for Scotland is that many financial companies based in Scotland survive on English customers and have indicated they might move south if independence happened and Scottish oil is not that abundant anymore. But good luck to them if they do decide to leave, they only joined England for the money anyway. Though my guess is that many Scottish politicians will miss the power England gives them but they won't be missed by the English. The only way the English will know they have gone is by the lack of whining coming down from over the border.




meatcleaver -> RE: "Pro-independent party poised for win" (5/4/2007 1:12:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Maybe one day Ireland will be united as well



The irony of this is that Ireland was only ever united under the English but creating Northern Ireland was a big mistake. The UK (particularly England) and Ireland would have been better off if the whole of Ireland got their independence.




seeksfemslave -> RE: "Pro-independent party poised for win" (5/4/2007 1:24:08 AM)

Brilliant post LadyE:
I say, I hope Scotland does vote for and obtain independence. The sooner the better IMO. How the situation arose where Scottish MPs can vote in the London Parliament and at the same time control large chunks of their own affairs via a Scottish Parliament, the building payed for at enormous cost overrun by Englanders, where Englanders have no say, I'll neva know.

With regard to the Queen and Scotland ie the Stuart connection, if the Scots dont want her maybe the Germans will take her. the Battenburg connection. something like that lol

By the way the English/Scots are on such friendly terms that the football internationals between them were stopped because of the large amounts of violence that occured during the games.

Dont forget that when talking about football Bill Shankly, a Liverpool manager, heard someone say that a result was a matter of life or death for Liverpool.
he replied , No its more important than that .
Bill Shankly was Scottish lol




meatcleaver -> RE: "Pro-independent party poised for win" (5/4/2007 2:59:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval


Actor Sean Connery is the Scottish National Party's leading celebrity supporter and claims "there will never be a better opportunity than now," to move toward independence, lending his distinct Scottish accent to a campaign video.


I missed this. Like many Scots that love Scotland, Connery refuses to live there!




seeksfemslave -> RE: "Pro-independent party poised for win" (5/4/2007 3:28:17 AM)

Taxes I think. I expect he blames the Englanders tho' lol.
Many are overcome with patriotic fervour after they have left their country of birth




meatcleaver -> RE: "Pro-independent party poised for win" (5/4/2007 4:21:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Taxes I think. I expect he blames the Englanders tho' lol.
Many are overcome with patriotic fervour after they have left their country of birth


He won't be going back to Scotland soon then even if they were independent. Scotland is the home of big tax loving politicians. LOL




seeksfemslave -> RE: "Pro-independent party poised for win" (5/4/2007 7:10:12 AM)

If Scots politicos aren't for high taxes yet they will soon have to be. Just wait 'till the bills start coming in for the things that LadyE outlined.




DomKen -> RE: "Pro-independent party poised for win" (5/4/2007 10:32:13 AM)

My ancestors were Scots and Irish who came to the US in the late 18th and early 19th century. Some were prisoners sent to the Georgia penal colony by the English. My family would never invest in the UK but does invest fairly heavily in Eire. As soon as Scotland is free of the English I'll be shifting half my investments in Eire to Scotland as will most of my relatives.




meatcleaver -> RE: "Pro-independent party poised for win" (5/4/2007 11:24:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

My ancestors were Scots and Irish who came to the US in the late 18th and early 19th century. Some were prisoners sent to the Georgia penal colony by the English. My family would never invest in the UK but does invest fairly heavily in Eire. As soon as Scotland is free of the English I'll be shifting half my investments in Eire to Scotland as will most of my relatives.


18th century? There was a good a chance as any they were sent by their fellow Scots. In the 17th century when James Stuart came to the throne, hordes of Scots couldn't wait to get out of Scotland and down to England and there has been a significant number of Scots in the British government ever since. Much more than their numbers warrant. It is the lot of the English to be blamed for the decisions of the Celts.

However, England doesn't need your investments where Eire and Scotland probably do.




FatDomDaddy -> RE: "Pro-independent party poised for win" (5/4/2007 12:44:27 PM)

Scotland will still have Betty II as Queen but they will have her as Queen of an Independant Scotland.

But honestly... and this is probably for another thread...isn't time for the whole notion of a Monarchy to go?




meatcleaver -> RE: "Pro-independent party poised for win" (5/4/2007 12:58:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Scotland will still have Betty II as Queen but they will have her as Queen of an Independant Scotland.


Scotland has a population of around 5 million and is comparable in size of population and economy to the county of Yorkshire. England has a population of 51 million. Scotland doesn't have that much significance to England other than the populations being rather mixed so there are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of family ties. I can't imagine many English people caring if Scotland comes or goes or whether they keep the monarchy or not. The only issue in all this for the English is the constant whining that can be heard coming from north of the border.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

But honestly... and this is probably for another thread...isn't time for the whole notion of a Monarchy to go?


I think it is for republicans to come up with an alternative everyone can live with. A president doesn't seem to float the boat of most English. You can have a failed politician as a president like Germany has or you can have a political president like France and the USA has. The problem with a failed politician as president is that they have no standing and aren't recognized outside their borders, they are just pretty much invisible. The problem with political presidents like France and the US has is that their politics become seen as an integral part of the nation they represent. When they go on State visits, the president as head of the country is not recognized but the president as politician is.




NorthernGent -> RE: "Pro-independent party poised for win" (5/4/2007 1:23:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

My ancestors were Scots and Irish who came to the US in the late 18th and early 19th century. Some were prisoners sent to the Georgia penal colony by the English. My family would never invest in the UK but does invest fairly heavily in Eire. As soon as Scotland is free of the English I'll be shifting half my investments in Eire to Scotland as will most of my relatives.


You think the Irish and Scots are like Celtic brothers? The Scots have been major players in the subjugation of Ireland. Many of the settlers in Ireland were hardline Scottish Protestants (Presbytarians). Most of Scotland (with the exception of parts of Glasgow and Edinburgh) would side with the English over the Irish. There's plenty of piss-taking between the Scots and English, but the Scots still want to be part of Britain - as far as I can tell, no more or less so than the English. You have to remember that English and Scottish lads have stood shoulder to shoulder in wars for centuries - we have a common history, and a common culture. Take away the accent, and Scotland and the Industrial parts of England (say 60% of the English population) are indistinguishable.

As a footnote, more Scots die in the British Army than English (as a percentage of populations) - fighting for the British government. This is a tradition stretching back centuries.




meatcleaver -> RE: "Pro-independent party poised for win" (5/4/2007 1:49:25 PM)

General point.

I just read this comment to a blog in The Guardian and couldn't resist posting it here.

If I was a Scot I'd be nervous about going it alone - a small fledgling state, known to have WMDs, and in possession of healthy oil and gas reserves - you're just asking to be democratised, Texas style!




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