RE: So what do YOU believe in?

RE: So what do YOU believe in? (Full Version)

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kittinSol -> RE: So what do YOU believe in? (5/4/2007 1:49:29 PM)
Fatdad, please, please, PLEASE don't hijack the post and turn it into an anti-abortion rant. We now all know how you feel on the subject of the female womb and its contents, and what should be done with them. Now, go back to your playpen.

NorthernGent -> RE: So what do YOU believe in? (5/4/2007 1:57:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol NorthernGent, I share many of your beliefs. Problem is, I no longer believe in any political system. Governments were always fickle, but now they are licking the boots of the CEOs. They've become the sluts of the economy, running errands for the pension funds and their (surprise, they're invisible!) investors. kittin, Corporations are king, the government is their subjects, and we are their slaves. What system do you believe in?

kittinSol -> RE: So what do YOU believe in? (5/4/2007 1:59:24 PM)
Well I always had a soft spot for the old anarchy theory... but it's just that. A theory :-)

NorthernGent -> RE: So what do YOU believe in? (5/4/2007 2:05:13 PM)
I can see the merit in it. Mutual aid, voluntary cooperation, free will, peace. The problem is, we're so indoctrinated, many of us think life's all about individualism.

kittinSol -> RE: So what do YOU believe in? (5/4/2007 2:18:18 PM)
Absolutely! nodding head with undisguised enthusiasm It's only when one's truly indoctrinated that one denies it wholeheartedly. So I guess the bastards haven't got to you yet [:D]

seeksfemslave -> RE: So what do YOU believe in? (5/4/2007 2:38:07 PM)
Expanding his political outlook NG said quote: The political system is simply a tool to aid the above, for me. The old Labour Party were as close as I've seen. and couldnt get elected boom boom !

kittinSol -> RE: So what do YOU believe in? (5/4/2007 2:41:12 PM)
seeksfemslave, you are far too radical for me, darling. Your controversial posts make my blood boil. Meoowwww I hate cold baths!

seeksfemslave -> RE: So what do YOU believe in? (5/4/2007 2:49:05 PM)
OK Ms Sol but I like you profile pic so I just dont care lol

NorthernGent -> RE: So what do YOU believe in? (5/4/2007 3:02:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Expanding his political outlook NG said quote: The political system is simply a tool to aid the above, for me. The old Labour Party were as close as I've seen. and couldnt get elected boom boom ! I know history ain't your strong point, so I wasn't expecting much in the way of accuracy, but it's fair to say the old Labour Party did get elected - 7 times. Aren't you in your 60s? Born around 1945 - you've lived through 6 of these elections, so you should know. In fact, results since 1945 stand Labour 9 v Conservative 8 v BNP 0. Thus, it is fair to say that Labour is more electable than your choice (based on facts, rather than boom boom! and the rest of it). Elections since 1945: Monarch: King George VI, 1936-1952 Thu 5th July 1945 Party Seats - % Candidates % Vote Party leaders Labour govt Lab 393 61.4 604 (2 LD) 47.8 (+10.4) C. Attlee Majority = 147 Con+UU 212 +S 33.3 624 (5 LD) 39.8 (-13.9) W. Churchill Turnout = 72.6% Lib 12 1.9 306 (76 LD) 9.0 (+0.8) A. Sinclair C. Davies Cabinet members Others 22 3.4 148 (99 LD) 3.4 Total 640 1682 (182 LD) Manifestos Thu 23rd Feb 1950 Party Seats - % Candidates % Vote Party leaders Labour govt Lab 315 50.4 617 (0 LD) 46.1 (-1.7) C. Attlee Majority = 6 Con+UU 297 +S 47.8 620 (5 LD) 43.5 (+3.7) W. Churchill Turnout = 84.1% Lib 9 1.4 475 (319 LD) 9.1 (+1.4) C. Davies Cabinet members Others 3 0.3 156 (137 LD) 0.1 (-1.4) Total 625 1868 (461 LD) Manifestos Thu 25th Oct 1951 Party Seats - % Candidates % Vote Party leaders Conservative govt Con+UU 321 51.3 617 (3 LD) 48.0 (+4.5) W. Churchill A. Eden Majority = 16 ¶ Lab 295 47.2 617 (1 LD) 48.8 (+2.7) C. Attlee Turnout = 82.5% Lib 6 0.96 109 (66 LD) 2.5 (-6.6) C. Davies Cabinet members Others 3 0.48 148 (26 LD) 0.7 (-0.3) Total 625 1376 (96 LD) Manifestos Monarch: Queen Elizabeth II (1952- ) Thu 26th May 1955 Party Seats - % Candidates % Vote Party leaders Conservative govt Con+UU 344 +S 54.8 623 (3 LD) 49.7 (+1.7) A. Eden H. Macmillan Majority = 59 Lab 277 44.0 620 (1 LD) 46.4 (-2.4) H. Gaitskell Turnout = 76.8% Lib 6 1.0 110 (60 LD) 2.7 (+0.2) C. Davies J. Grimond Cabinet members Others 2 0.3 56 (36 LD) 1.2 (+0.5) Total 630 1409 (100 LD) Manifestos Thu 8th Oct 1959 Party Seats - % Candidates % Vote Party leaders Conservative govt Con+UU 365 57.9 625 (2 LD) 49.4 (-0.3) H. Macmillan A. Home Majority = 99¶ Lab 258 41.0 621 (1 LD) 43.8 (-2.6) H. Gaitskell H. Wilson Turnout = 78.8% Lib 6 1.0 216 (55 LD) 5.9 (+3.2) J. Grimond Cabinet members Others 1 0.0 74 (58 LD) 0.9 (-0.3) Total 630 1536 (116 LD) Manifestos Thu 15th Oct 1964 Party Seats - % Candidates % Vote Party leaders Labour govt Lab 317 50.3 628 (8 LD) 44.1 (+0.3) H. Wilson Majority = 5 Con+UU 303 +S 48.3 630 (5 LD) 43.4 (-6.0) A. Home E. Heath Turnout = 77.1% Lib 9 1.4 365 (52 LD) 11.1 (+5.3) J. Grimond Cabinet members Others 0 - 134 (121 LD) 1.3 (+0.4) Total 630 1757 (186 LD) Manifestos Thu 31st Mar 1966 Party Seats - % Candidates % Vote Party leaders Labour govt Lab 363 +S 57.6 621 (3 LD) 47.9 (+3.8) H. Wilson Majority = 97 Con+UU 253 40.2 629 (9 LD) 41.9 (-1.5) E. Heath Turnout = 75.9% Lib 12 1.9 311 (104 LD) 8.5 (-2.7) J. Grimond J. Thorpe Cabinet members Others 1 0.3 146 (121 LD) 1.7 (+0.4) Total 630 1707 (237 LD) Manifestos Thu 18th June 1970 Party Seats - % Candidates % Vote Party leaders Conservative govt Con+UU 330 52.4 628 (10 LD) 46.4 (+3.0) E. Heath Majority = 31 Lab 287 +S 45.6 624 (6 LD) 43.0 (-1.1) H. Wilson Turnout = 72.0% Lib 6 1.0 332 (184 LD) 7.5 (-3.7) J. Thorpe Cabinet members Others 6 1.1 253 (208 LD) 3.2 (+1.9) Total 630 1837 (408 LD) Manifestos Thu 28th Feb 1974 Party Seats - % Candidates % Vote Party leaders Labour govt Lab 301 47.4 623 (25 LD) 37.1 (-5.9) H. Wilson Minority govt Con 296 +S 46.8 623 (8 LD) 37.9 (-8.5) E. Heath Turnout = 78.7% Lib 14 2.2 517 (23 LD) 19.3 (+11.8) J. Thorpe Cabinet members Others 23 3.6 372 (265 LD) 5.7 (+2.5) Total 635 2135 (321 LD) Manifestos Thu 10th Oct 1974 Party Seats - % Candidates % Vote Party leaders Labour govt Lab 319 50.2 623 (13 LD) 39.2 (+2.1) H. Wilson J. Callaghan Majority = 4 Con 276 +S 43.6 623 (28 LD) 35.8 (-2.1) E. Heath M. Thatcher Turnout = 72.8% Lib 13 2.0 619 (125 LD) 18.3 (-1.0) J. Thorpe J. Grimond D. Steel Cabinet members Others 26 4.1 387 (276 LD) 6.7 (+1.0) Total 635 2252 (442 LD) Manifestos Thu 3rd May 1979 Party Seats - % Candidates % Vote Party leaders Conservative govt Con 339 53.4 622 (3 LD) 43.9 (+8.1) M. Thatcher Majority = 44 Lab 268 +S 42.4 623 (22 LD) 36.9 (-2.3) J. Callaghan M. Foot Turnout = 72.0% Lib 11 1.7 577 (303 LD) 13.8 (-4.5) D. Steel Cabinet members Others 16 2.5 754 (673 LD) 5.4 (-1.3) Total 635 2576 (1001 LD) Manifestos Thu 9th June 1983 Party Seats - % Candidates % Vote Party leaders Conservative govt Con 397 61.1 633 (5 LD) 42.4 (-1.5) M. Thatcher Majority = 143¶ Lab 209 32.2 633 (119 LD) 27.6 (-9.3) M. Foot N. Kinnock Turnout = 72.7% All. 23 3.5 633 (10 LD) 25.4 (+11.6) Owen/Steel Cabinet members Others 21 3.2 580 (570 LD) 4.6 (-0.7) Total 650 2579 (704 LD) Manifestos Thu 11th June 1987 Party Seats - % Candidates % Vote Party leaders Conservative govt Con 375 +S 57.9 633 (0 LD) 42.2 (-0.2) M. Thatcher J. Major Majority = 100 Lab 229 35.2 633 (0 LD) 30.8 (+3.2) N. Kinnock Turnout = 75.3% All. 22 3.4 633 (1 LD) 22.6 (-2.8) D. Steel P. Ashdown Cabinet members Others 23 3.5 427 (307 LD) 4.3 (-0.3) Total 650 2326 (308 LD) Manifestos Thu 9th April 1992 Party Seats - % Candidates % Vote Party leaders Conservative govt Con 336 51.6 645 (3 LD) 41.9 (-1.5) J. Major Majority = 22§ Lab 271 41.6 634 (1 LD) 34.4 (+3.6) Neil Kinnock John Smith Margaret Beckett Tony Blair Turnout = 77.7% LibDem 20 3.1 632 (11 LD) 17.8 (-4.8) P. Ashdown Cabinet members Others 24 3.7 1040 (888 LD) 5.8 (+1.5) Total 651 2949 (903 LD) Manifestos Thu 1st May 1997 Party Seats - % Candidates % Vote Party leaders Labour govt Lab 418 +S 63.6 639 - 43.2 (+8.8) Tony Blair Majority = 178 Con 165 25.0 640 (1 LD) 30.7 (-11.2) John Major William Hague Turnout = 71.3% LibDem 46 7.0 639 (13 LD) 16.8 (-1.0) P.Ashdown Cabinet members Others 29 4.4 1806 (1555 LD) 9.3 (+3.5) Total 659 3724 (1569 LD) Manifestos Thu 7th June 2001 Party Seats - % Candidates % Vote Party leaders Labour govt Lab 412 +S 62.5 640 - 40.7 (-3.7) Tony Blair Majority = 166 Con 166 25.2 643 (5 LD) 31.7 (+0.3) William Hague I. Duncan Smith Michael Howard Turnout = 59.4% LibDem 52 7.9 639 (1 LD) 18.3 (+1.1) Charles Kennedy Cabinet members Others 28 4.2 1396 (1171 LD) 9.3 (+2.3) Total 659 3318 (1177 LD) Manifestos Thu 5th May 2005 Party Seats - % Candidates % Vote Party leaders Labour govt Lab 355 +S 55.0 627 - 35.2 (-5.4) Tony Blair Majority = 65 Con 198 30.5 630 (5 LD) 32.3 (+0.6) Michael Howard David Cameron Turnout = 61.4% LibDem 62 9.6 626 (1 LD) 22.0 (+3.8) Charles Kennedy Menzies Campbell Cabinet members Others 30 4.2 1667 (1379 LD) 10.5 (+1.2) Total 645 3550 (1385 LD)

farglebargle -> RE: So what do YOU believe in? (5/4/2007 3:20:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life,\....... Even for the conceived, developing human unborn farglebargle? Sure. A fetus' CREATOR is their Mother.

Lordandmaster -> RE: So what do YOU believe in? (5/4/2007 3:26:17 PM)
Most people don't. You can tell that they don't when they say things like "the left-wing media." Maybe 98% of the media in this country are owned by mega-corporations, and they don't lean left, right, or in any direction whatsoever. They lean toward the money. quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Does nobody understand that corporate culture is self-interested?

seeksfemslave -> RE: So what do YOU believe in? (5/4/2007 3:33:38 PM)
Labour got elected in 1945 with a working majority and implemented the foundations of the Welfare State. A wonderful ideal gone badly wrong IMO. Most subsequent Labour victories, until Blair that is, were scrape throughs, I'm speaking from memory now, or if not the economy was so weak that the room for manouver was severely limited. We all know what happened after 1979 when Boadecia (sp?) was re incarnated in the shape of Mrs T. During those years , 1979 onwards, the Labour party was changed fundamentally; a fact which finally produced 10 years of workable govnt and unfortunately disastrous errors. Dont get mad at me NG just because the Brit public wont support your Guardianista idealism. lol I just noticed you included the BNP in your assessment NG. I've told you before I'm not doctrinaire and more of a leftie than you appear to believe.

FatDomDaddy -> RE: So what do YOU believe in? (5/4/2007 3:43:07 PM)
Talk about a hijack!! lol What were those stats again N'Gent?

Griswold -> RE: So what do YOU believe in? (5/4/2007 3:59:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol "Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." (J. M. Keynes) This is a misunderstanding of "everyone" on the part of Keynes. Capitalism is economic selection. It's damn good for the economy and humanity as a whole. Some people say "humanity as a whole" as "everyone". In this meaning, "everyone" doesn't mean every individual person- it means the collective of all individual persons. Capitalism is determental to the economically inviable or uncompetative. Indeed. In fact, 10 years ago 1.2 billion people lived on a dollar or less a day...10 years later, with 700 million more people in the world, there are only 980 million people living on a dollar or less a day. Granted, a dollar a day ain't much, but for those no longer living on said dollar...it's a bonanza. A global economy isn't flawless, and it has plenty of fits and starts...but world poverty is being affected for the better.

Griswold -> RE: So what do YOU believe in? (5/4/2007 4:02:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord This is a misunderstanding of "everyone" on the part of Keynes. Capitalism is economic selection. It's damn good for the economy and humanity as a whole. Some people say "humanity as a whole" as "everyone". In this meaning, "everyone" doesn't mean every individual person- it means the collective of all individual persons. Capitalism is determental to the economically inviable or uncompetative. Wrong. Capitalism has a human face in the west because ordinary people organized and refused to be exploited. What we now have in the west is capitalism tempered with socialism. If you want to know what 'real capitalism' is like, read Dickens or Zola or better still, take a sabatical in a far east sweat shop where you don't know if you will still have your two hands at the end of the week. Keynes knew exactly what he was saying. Dickens or Zola would maintain my point. If sweatshops are economically viable, they'll progress and continue. If they're not, they won't. I didn't say capitalism was pretty nor kind. I said it was benificial to the collective society. If you care to argue this, I'd ask you make your case clearly instead of just saying, "Wrong." And, yes, we don't have a perfect capitalism- at least, not in the elementary sense. Ours is kinder to most without a major sacarfice. Most things find perfection in balance. Your spelling sucks, but your logic is inarguable.

seeksfemslave -> RE: So what do YOU believe in? (5/4/2007 4:12:42 PM)
Your spelling sucks, but your logic is inarguable. so says Griswold. Be careful Mr Gris. Remember glass houses and stones ? The word is unarguable. I hope lol

cjenny -> RE: So what do YOU believe in? (5/4/2007 4:17:23 PM)
Tis indeed un, not in. [;)] Oh, btw.. sheeeeesh NG that was the most obnoxious thingie to scroll thru! My poor lil finger got tired out from the down arrow lol.

NorthernGent -> RE: So what do YOU believe in? (5/4/2007 4:20:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Labour got elected in 1945 with a working majority and implemented the foundations of the Welfare State. A wonderful ideal gone badly wrong IMO. Most subsequent Labour victories, until Blair that is, were scrape throughs, I'm speaking from memory now, or if not the economy was so weak that the room for manouver was severely limited. We all know what happened after 1979 when Boadecia (sp?) was re incarnated in the shape of Mrs T. During those years , 1979 onwards, the Labour party was changed fundamentally; a fact which finally produced 10 years of workable govnt and unfortunately disastrous errors. Dont get mad at me NG just because the Brit public wont support your Guardianista idealism. lol I just noticed you included the BNP in your assessment NG. I've told you before I'm not doctrinaire and more of a leftie than you appear to believe. What does this have to do with: a) My liking for the old Labour Party. b) Your statement that the party is unelectable. c) My fact that the Labour Party has won more elections than the rest of the opposition put together since 1945. d) It is a fact that since 1945, The Labour Party has been the most electable party in Britain.

NorthernGent -> RE: So what do YOU believe in? (5/4/2007 4:22:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Absolutely! nodding head with undisguised enthusiasm It's only when one's truly indoctrinated that one denies it wholeheartedly. So I guess the bastards haven't got to you yet [:D] Still chippin' away kittin. I haven't watched the tele in months, possibly years - so that helps. You know what we need here, it's time to trim the herd :-)

seeksfemslave -> RE: So what do YOU believe in? (5/4/2007 4:37:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cjenny Tis indeed un, not in. [;)] Oh, btw.. sheeeeesh NG that was the most obnoxious thingie to scroll thru! My poor lil finger got tired out from the down arrow lol. I think NG's mistress had just released him from bondage and his fingers were still numb when he posted that little lot ! By the way NG it was a Labour politician who characterised one of Kinnock's manifestos as the longest suicide note in history. Kinnock and spit in your face Hattersley. what a team.!! Hattersley was a nice man but spoke odd and flecks of you know what could emerge on occasions. Getting really parochial now lol

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