When Patriots are Blind

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Musicmystery -> When Patriots are Blind (5/4/2007 7:53:59 PM)
I was going through some past writing and came across this piece. Remember when George W. Bush invaded Iraq? How people lined up to insist Americans must line up behind the president? Now, thousands of deaths later, and with no end in sight, we still debate the issue, long after Bush’s “Mission Accomplished” bravado—bravado his administration still embraces while pointing to the flag and couching any debate in terms of winning or losing the war. When will we decide that ego isn’t the way to conduct policy? That opponents to those polices serve an important function? Here’s what I wrote shortly after the second U.S. invasion of Iraq: Imagine the U.S. and Iraq had made a deal: each country kills X number of their citizens, and in return, Iraq’s leaders step down. Certainly no one would agree to such a horrific plan. Yet how is war essentially different? What comes from armed conflict that’s missing from a simple exchange of sacrificed lives? The Bush administration wanted this badly--so much that to challenge Baghdad was worth killing Iraqis and losing American lives. And many Americans approve. Why? The decision was hardly altruistic. America, self proclaimed defender of liberty, isn’t interested in helping the people of Burma, for example, despite their severely repressive regime. Rather, Americans seem motivated by a combination of poorly focused anger and a lack of foresight. Nobody defies America! Time to kick butt. Damn the logic. The counter argument? “You unpatriotic bastard! This is the time to support our troops!” But this is a red herring. Everyone supports the troops--that was never in question. They’re doing a remarkable job in extremely trying circumstances. Back home, Americans aren’t doing so well. Apparently, it’s OK to protest a war as long as there isn’t a war. Right. So blind patriotism rules the day, unblinking in the face of senseless rhetoric and obvious fallacies. “You’re either with us or against us.” False dilemma. “Iraq has to prove they don’t have these weapons.” Inappropriate burden of proof (can’t prove a negative). “Changing the regime in Baghdad will bring peace to Palestine.” Now THERE’S a non sequitur. Consequently, instead of examining French and German reasons for their opposition to this war, Americans rename their deep fried potatoes. Instead of improving the search capacity of weapons inspectors, America takes on the job, with no better success. Can peace in Palestine be far behind? The cost will be high. The Bush administration has made it clear that negotiating with the United States is useless--agree or move aside--and honors agreements only when convenient. America has invaded a country, ignoring United Nations objections, and is now viewed, quite understandably, as a threat to security. Since neither treaties nor refraining from aggressive actions will help against such an arrogant nation, the only solution is to acquire nuclear arms, the only thing that seems to get American attention. Not much occasion for pride here.

TheHeretic -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/4/2007 8:09:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Everyone supports the troops--that was never in question. But that's the problem music. No. They don't. They mouth the words, but they don't give a rats ass about anybody "stupid" enough to join the military. Worse, they refuse to acknowledge that their speech and actions feed right into the propaganda machine of the other side.

FatDomDaddy -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/4/2007 8:59:29 PM)
The Left HATES US military power and her troops. They think, it is the bumkis rubes heffing all of that firepower that allow American's Corporations to exploit her own national and labor resources and the natural and labor resoures of the rest of the world too. Their "useful idiots" in the hodge podge of American Academia/MainstreamPress/LiberalPol only pay lip service to "Supporting the Troop" else they be exposed to the socialist know-it-all they are!

caitlyn -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/4/2007 9:19:25 PM)
I don't buy this at all ... Look, being in the military is a job. You take the job an you get paid. Yes, you put yourself at risk ... so do policemen and so do firemen and so do guys that work building high-rises. Children running away from crisis family dynamics, are probably at a hundred times the risk as anyone in the military. For whatever reason, there is some sort of hero worship by a lot of American, for anyone in the military ... and anyone that doesn't share that view, is victim of the point if view just expressed by you and Heretic. I respect the people in the military. You know what ... I respect the guy that works at Starbucks too. I respect every person on this board, even the one's I fight with constantly. To the point of the OP ... I agree with you on many cases, but have to say, I think the world worked better, when we spent more time minding our own business and less worrying about what people like the French of Germans think about it (and vice-versa, to be fair). I think this is also insulting to them ... don't you think they know and understand that our government could change tomorrow, along with our attitudes towards them and their attitudes towards us. The war in Iraq is a oddity. I think about twenty percent of the people have the right to say that they actually opposed the war ... but about eighty percent seem to claim it. I don't think we were blind ... I think we were stupid. The blindness I see, is that people now don't want to admit the truth.

popeye1250 -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/4/2007 9:46:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn I don't buy this at all ... Look, being in the military is a job. You take the job an you get paid. Yes, you put yourself at risk ... so do policemen and so do firemen and so do guys that work building high-rises. Children running away from crisis family dynamics, are probably at a hundred times the risk as anyone in the military. For whatever reason, there is some sort of hero worship by a lot of American, for anyone in the military ... and anyone that doesn't share that view, is victim of the point if view just expressed by you and Heretic. I respect the people in the military. You know what ... I respect the guy that works at Starbucks too. I respect every person on this board, even the one's I fight with constantly. To the point of the OP ... I agree with you on many cases, but have to say, I think the world worked better, when we spent more time minding our own business and less worrying about what people like the French of Germans think about it (and vice-versa, to be fair). I think this is also insulting to them ... don't you think they know and understand that our government could change tomorrow, along with our attitudes towards them and their attitudes towards us. The war in Iraq is a oddity. I think about twenty percent of the people have the right to say that they actually opposed the war ... but about eighty percent seem to claim it. I don't think we were blind ... I think we were stupid. The blindness I see, is that people now don't want to admit the truth. Caitlyn, Well said!

Vendaval -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/4/2007 9:56:06 PM)
I love it when you cut to the chase, caitlyn! quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn I don't buy this at all ... Look, being in the military is a job. You take the job an you get paid. Yes, you put yourself at risk ... so do policemen and so do firemen and so do guys that work building high-rises. Children running away from crisis family dynamics, are probably at a hundred times the risk as anyone in the military. For whatever reason, there is some sort of hero worship by a lot of American, for anyone in the military ... and anyone that doesn't share that view, is victim of the point if view just expressed by you and Heretic. I respect the people in the military. You know what ... I respect the guy that works at Starbucks too. I respect every person on this board, even the one's I fight with constantly. To the point of the OP ... I agree with you on many cases, but have to say, I think the world worked better, when we spent more time minding our own business and less worrying about what people like the French of Germans think about it (and vice-versa, to be fair). I think this is also insulting to them ... don't you think they know and understand that our government could change tomorrow, along with our attitudes towards them and their attitudes towards us. The war in Iraq is a oddity. I think about twenty percent of the people have the right to say that they actually opposed the war ... but about eighty percent seem to claim it. I don't think we were blind ... I think we were stupid. The blindness I see, is that people now don't want to admit the truth. Caitlyn, Well said!

farglebargle -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/4/2007 10:01:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Everyone supports the troops--that was never in question. But that's the problem music. No. They don't. They mouth the words, but they don't give a rats ass about anybody "stupid" enough to join the military. If they care so little why does the bill passed by both houses provide for: 1) Giving Bush yet MORE MONEY. You do realize that Congress FULLY FUNDED the military ALREADY THIS YEAR, and Bush wasted it all, PLUS the additional supplementals prior! 2) Properly resting, training, and equipping the troops. 3) Making the Iraqis do something besides go on vacation for July and August. Yeah, the people who WANT THE TROOPS HOME, really fucking hate them.

Vendaval -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/4/2007 10:07:05 PM)
One of the main reasons I opposed this war from the beginning was because of the burden it would put on our military troops and the resources to support them. One of my brothers served during the Vietnam War, my step-father in WW2, several of my friends have been active duty in Iraq and Afghanistan. Those of us at home have to help them re-build their lives no matter if they come back with visible injuries or PTSD. And we get to bury and mourn them if they come back in a coffin.

minnetar -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/4/2007 10:19:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn I don't buy this at all ... Look, being in the military is a job. You take the job an you get paid. Yes, you put yourself at risk ... so do policemen and so do firemen and so do guys that work building high-rises. Children running away from crisis family dynamics, are probably at a hundred times the risk as anyone in the military. For whatever reason, there is some sort of hero worship by a lot of American, for anyone in the military ... and anyone that doesn't share that view, is victim of the point if view just expressed by you and Heretic. I respect the people in the military. You know what ... I respect the guy that works at Starbucks too. I respect every person on this board, even the one's I fight with constantly. To the point of the OP ... I agree with you on many cases, but have to say, I think the world worked better, when we spent more time minding our own business and less worrying about what people like the French of Germans think about it (and vice-versa, to be fair). I think this is also insulting to them ... don't you think they know and understand that our government could change tomorrow, along with our attitudes towards them and their attitudes towards us. The war in Iraq is a oddity. I think about twenty percent of the people have the right to say that they actually opposed the war ... but about eighty percent seem to claim it. I don't think we were blind ... I think we were stupid. The blindness I see, is that people now don't want to admit the truth. In most prior situations the government would try and use diplomacy to solve the problem. Bush had a personal agenda so he wasn't going to do that and i feel would try to find any reason for his attack. He continually tries to justify his actions when i feel there are no reasons to justify the American response. minnetar

domiguy -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/4/2007 11:18:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy The Left HATES US military power and her troops. They think, it is the bumkis rubes heffing all of that firepower that allow American's Corporations to exploit her own national and labor resources and the natural and labor resoures of the rest of the world too. Their "useful idiots" in the hodge podge of American Academia/MainstreamPress/LiberalPol only pay lip service to "Supporting the Troop" else they be exposed to the socialist know-it-all they are! This is the biggest bunch of B.S....If the right was so "in love with our troops" wouldn't putting them in jeopardy only be utilized after every possible means had been exhausted? There was a rush to war and the case made to support a war....Please explain how this approach suggests an honest love and respect for the troops as well as for their losses.....Please inform me...Though you might be concerned for their losses you still show no resentment as to why these losses have been sustained from the onset. Just more rhetoric from someone incapable of thinking outside of the box.

Real0ne -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 12:37:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn The war in Iraq is a oddity. I think about twenty percent of the people have the right to say that they actually opposed the war ... but about eighty percent seem to claim it. I don't think we were blind ... I think we were stupid. The blindness I see, is that people now don't want to admit the truth. Smack on target! The funny thing is that we are always idiots and will always continue to be idiots any time we are moved emotionally. How to get americans to do ANYTHING: save the babies they are killing them in incubators! (waco) Sadam killed many of his own people what a nasty guy! (again waco) He invaded hi neighbors (we invade the whole ME) Sadam was idealistic (not a reason to go to war) america is imperialist (great reason to go to war) The next time there is (terror) from with in or from with out, be sure to get on the war wagon, This history has repeated itself how many times?

NorthernGent -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 6:00:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: minnetar Bush had a personal agenda so he wasn't going to do that and i feel would try to find any reason for his attack. The US government has been overthrowing sovereign governments and installing their favoured version since at least 1953 - for all I know, it could extend beyond this date. If you want to live with a government that stays within its own borders, and respects the liberty of those outside of its own borders, then bush isn't your problem. It is the root causes of this trend (since 1953, possibly before) that you will have to address.

caitlyn -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 6:18:10 AM)
I completely agree with you NG ... this problem is much bigger then President Bush. To repeat ... about twenty percent of the people were against this war from the very start. The percentage was even lower in Congress. But, right about now, about eighty percent claim to have been against it. Many of our wondeful "leaders" claim to have only voted to give him authority to go to war. Exactly what did they think he was going to do with that authority? Apparently, they have a very poor understanding of President Bush. Senator Clinton is now trying to revoke the vote (specifically her's) that gave this authority. A little late at this point, don't you think? You can't see at all ... when you have your head in the sand. There is lots of sand, in Iraq.

smilezz -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 6:38:17 AM)
Note my tagline

Termyn8or -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 6:44:12 AM)
Geezu........ no, I am not allowed to say that. How much blindness does it take for people to see what they see instead of what is real ? I almost don't know where to start. The US has military bases in like 130 some odd countries. Why are they there ? Amma tellya why they''re there, to help the government. A friendly government. The military is there to make sure the people can't take the power back like they did in Venezuela. So the idea in Iraq is to get the right government installed and have it as an outpost, of the power of the US and Israeli military. Some of you might think that is OK, ignoring the moral isues, ignoring the fact that we are defending a regime against their own people. Helping to choose their candidates. Making sure they use the right currency and have a healthy burden of national debt. That is what we do. When you hack the fucking subject to death though, it loses it's luster. We know, some of us anyway. In no way am I saying to quiet down about it, I am saying is that we need solutions. Get the word out, get more and more people off the grid, out of the mix. Independent. Get it to the point the system cannot support itself. This is our only option at this time. Any aggression would be counterproductive. In fact we could be total pacifists for a number of years and let them get complacent. Anything could happen, but we need to focus on what probably will, and how we can influence it now. Not some lofty goal of a utopian society, nor, as the UN defines peace 'the absence of opposition'. Yes, read the charter, that is the legal definition, and that is the morality under which they make war for peace. We are not all blind, to say the very least. But we are currently unable to effect any change because we can't get the masses behind us. That is because there are too many radicals who come off as being nuts, talking about there is a state of ohio and a country of ohio, this and that. Concentrating on taxes, not having license plates on your car, total bullshit like that. Too much Yahweh, or YHVH, too much Magna Carta, which ios totally irrelevant to US law, but then even that could change if it would suits the powers that be. Too many people going into court pro se and losing, and losing big. Look at the big picture people. We gotta do what we gotta do. We can no longer let ourselves be misled, and we have been. You look at ½ of the common law people, they don't hold court anymore, they are done filing terrific liens against public officials. I am telling you, these people are not perfect either. They have used common law tactics to get out of child support and shit like that. While it does apply, it should not be used for that purpose, but it was and now that avenue is just about closed. Every action has an equal and oppoosite reaction, and sometimes that reaction is not readily discerned. They bomb buildings and what happens ? THINGS GET WORSE. And eventually will come the intercene strife, in which people will not really know who the enemy is. Brother against brother. The powers that be can do no less than laugh all the way to the bank. Yes, I guess it really can be called blindness. But it is not of the eyes. T

NorthernGent -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 6:49:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Exactly what did they think he was going to do with that authority? Apparently, they have a very poor understanding of President Bush. Whatever else can be thrown at the likes of blair, thatcher, reagan, bush - they had/have a vision. These people certainly do have ideas and they stand by them. They're not just feeling their way in the dark. I would say they're liberal interventionists. They believe in intervening in other countries for the benefit of their own countries. They're not idiots and they mean what they say. My understanding is bush is from the school of neo-conservatives who began to take root in the 1970s, as was Reagan. At their core, this school believes in liberal interventionism. As you point out, what else was bush and his team going to do when they've been schooled in the ideas of neo-conservatism and their ideas of intervening in other countries? It was only ever going to go down one path.

slaveluci -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 7:00:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: smilezz Note my tagline Noted. Cute bumpersticker phrase, but just what does it mean to "stand behind our troops." i think that is what's up for debate here. i did not support this war and i do not support Bush's polices as a whole. However, i DO support our troops. To me, at the very root of it, means that i care enough about their safety to not want them sent off to fight as a first resort, rather than a last. i believe that is what has happened. It amazes me how certain groups co-opt the word "patriot" and the symbol of our flag. Only if you support this war are you worthy of being called a patriot. That's just wrong. As one of MY bumperstickers reads: "A patriot must be ready to defend his country against his government." i am a natural born citizen and i love this country and the freedoms living in it permits us (though they are slowly being eroded, but that's another story). It pains me to see what has happened and is happening to it via Bush and his cronies, especially this war. i "support" our troops by believing it was wrong to send them there to fight a battle i feel it's impossible to "win." How is it supportive of these men and women to wish to see them remain there in this nightmare situation? i don't feel i should be shot for feeling that way (i'm assuming that's what "standing in front of them" insinuates). That's kind of the crux of the problem: either you support this war or you should be shot as a traitor. To me, the real traitors are the ones who lied and allowed others to lie in order to get us into this war to start with. Those who don't see individual soldiers whose lives should be valued but rather see them as one collective bunch called "our troops" who should blindly do anything they're told are the ones i think aren't showing so much "support".........just my "unamerican," "unpatriotic" opinon [;)]...........slave luci

NorthernGent -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 7:08:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or When you hack the fucking subject to death though, it loses it's luster. We know, some of us anyway. In no way am I saying to quiet down about it, I am saying is that we need solutions. Get the word out, get more and more people off the grid, out of the mix. Independent. Get it to the point the system cannot support itself. This is our only option at this time. Any aggression would be counterproductive. I agree aggression isn't the answer. Are there any alternatives apart from putting across the view that this whole invasion business is counter-productive for all concerned, and hope a few people can see some merit in this idea and take it upon themselves to do a spot of reading/research/self-education, and thus begin to understand what is going on? I'd be interested to hear what solutions you have in mind.

farglebargle -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 7:49:24 AM)
quote: too much Magna Carta, which ios totally irrelevant to US law, You are suggesting there IS a "Divine Right To Rule direct from G-d to the Royal Family?"

farglebargle -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 7:50:26 AM)
quote: If you don't stand behind our Troops...please feel free to stand in front of them No one can possibly support the troops MORE than those who want them HOME. OR Any troops who die TOMORROW are YOUR FAULT BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T BRING THEM HOME TODAY.

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