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RE: Masterhood - 5/7/2007 12:49:02 PM   
MasterNdorei


Posts: 658
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		LA writes: Maybe it's because I am polamorous, but I understand that any ONE thing usually takes multiple sources of information, input, processing, and output.  To suggest it all comes from and goes to one would be very ignorant of all the intertwining and essential steps.  In polyamory, to ignore those steps will lead to destruction.
 ****There are countries where the man always receives credit, and has many wives. i disagree with your statement that this concept coupled with polyamory leads to destruction.  In your dynamic it may lead to destruction, but i do not see how polyamory is to blame for that because it works for others. Perhaps there is something else in your dynamic that would casue it not to work for you? i am not saying because you have become aware of this dynamic within the realm of the lifestyle that you have to accept LA. i merely ask that you be aware of it, and not critical. Master's dorei

< Message edited by MasterNdorei -- 5/7/2007 12:51:08 PM >

(in reply to MasterNdorei)
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RE: Masterhood - 5/7/2007 12:50:42 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterNdorei
Most people who live their M/s dynamic full time do not attend events because of the misunderstandings.

I wouldn't so most.  And there certainly are plenty of Ms dynamic people who are out and activei n the scene as well.

quote:

Knowing now that i prefer all compliments be made to the One who owns me, if you wanted to compliment me in a way that i could receive it best, would you continue to force your decisions on me by complimenting me directly? Or, would you compliment the One who owns me?

If someone directly informed me that they wished thanks to be offered in a particular way that was not inconveniencing or insulting to me, I would go along with that.  Similar to when someone dies and they wish donations to be made to a particular charity.

That doesn't mean I would suddenly start believing you were not partly responsible or due credit.

You keep suggesting that particular actions equate to literal thoughts- they don't.

quote:

just have not experienced it much in the lifestyle. i am merely stating that such a dynamic exists here too.

It's fairly presumptuous to say you know what I haven't experienced much of in the lifestyle in this way.
quote:


Step outside of the lifestyle for a moment, and you can still see it. If you organized a function and someone came to you to compliment you, and you were given a choice, would you prefer to hear the compliment yourself? Or to have them tell your supervisor?

Again- this has nothing to do with whether a particular person DESERVES credit or IS partly responsible for something.  Stop equating the two. 

One person offering credit to one other particular person does NOT mean that the person believes that only that one particular person deserves credit or is responsible for the whole.


_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MasterNdorei)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Masterhood - 5/7/2007 1:18:00 PM   
MasterNdorei


Posts: 658
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		LA writes: It's fairly presumptuous to say you know what I haven't experienced much of in the lifestyle in this way.
*** i was giving you the benefit of the doubt, i meant no insult to you. The post that indicated this to me was the one where you stated that "specially gracious guests" will behave in a certain way. This indicated to me that your opinion about such behavior was that it would get you included in the "specially gracious" category.  i commend you for wanting to be a gracious guest! i think we should clone people with this goal! :) My response was to show you that in order to be considered a gracious guest, it is important to respect the dynamic of the host. My hope was to provide another point of view. i have already agreed that your idea of being gracious  holds true in most lifestyle affairs. My purpose in this part of the discussion is that there are other dynamics active within the lifestyle which should be taken into consideration when you are dining with them.  Your post about "specially gracious guests" was one dimensionally misleading to me. Please tell me about the functions you have attended within the lifestyle that practiced the kind of dynamic i have been respresenting.  How did you conduct yourself differently?Was this uncomfortable or did you like it as a change of pace?How did you compliment the event? Master's dorei

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Masterhood - 5/7/2007 1:30:24 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterNdorei
How did you conduct yourself differently?

Essentially the same as I would at any dinner party, except the "waitstaff" were all slaves.  It would take years of training to get me to stop automatically saying "thank you" to someone when they hand me a napkin or refill my drink, so I didn't worry about it.  I simply gave them an automatic thank you, they went about their business as invisibly as possible and I only called for them when I or someone else needed something.

At the end of the evening, I generally offer the host/hostess many thanks for their hospitality and to please pass on my thanks to everyone else- leaving it fairly general and open to the hosts discretion.

quote:

Was this uncomfortable or did you like it as a change of pace?

It was neither, just nice and normal for me, a good social dinner.  Trust me, I have no problems completely ignoring slaves or completely including slaves.  I really do tend to go with the flow. 

Again, I still believe the slaves themselves added to the event, have some responsibility towards making it a good event, and would be due some credit if they performed well, and some rebuke if they performed badly.  However, if they aren't my slave, it's certainly not my place to disperse either.


_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MasterNdorei)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Masterhood - 5/7/2007 1:35:15 PM   
WhiplashSmile


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Joined: 6/8/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterNdorei

Archer and WhiplashSmile: Why do you perpetuate something that rarely if ever happens in an M/s relationship? Putting energy into these bizzare notions perpetuates a myth about slaves that seldom exisits in reality. How many slaves do you personally know who have acted out illegal activites they would not have pursued on their own only to adhere to the wishes of One who owns them? How many people on these boards do you truly believ are truly in danger of following iilegal orders from their Master? Do you actually think if they were predisposed to such acts that a post from a complete stranger on a board would make a difference? Most importantly, aren't there more relevant issues to debate on these boards? Master's dorei


I know I did not mention anything about punishment for illegal activities in my post.  I was speaking in an extremely broader sense of the word, to even encompass punishment a master gives a slave.   The no Brainer is anybody, be it slave, sub, master, Dom or any other friggen label you can place on it have a degree of responsibility and accountability.  Some people have more compared to others.   Slaves have responisbility and are held accountable for their own actions, while their actions are a reflection upon their owners.   Hence why a punishment and rewards system in put in place for many slaves.  Even the for the ones during legalized slavery.. be it Roman time, pre Civil War or other historic points in various cultures.   Why specific laws regarding punishment, ownerhips, responsibility and accountablility were drafted.    So be it legalized, illegalized, or consentual based forms of slavery it still applies that slaves have responsibility.   If a Master gives a slave a set of rules to follow, that slave is still responsibile for keeping those rules or not.   Slaves Choice or decision, to either follow the rules or not, the slave is aware of the consequences of punishments and rewards. 

(in reply to MasterNdorei)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Masterhood - 5/7/2007 1:41:22 PM   
MasterNdorei


Posts: 658
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		LA writes: That doesn't mean I would suddenly start believing you were not partly responsible or due credit.
 **** This is so funny to me because if i am understanding things correctly, you are telling me (as the cook) that my work is awesome, and you are not going to let go of that notion. Part of me can not help but see the irony in debating. :) But still the truth for me is that while it is nice for someone to think that, in order for me to receive the full benefit of the compliment, it must come via the One who owns me. i may be the biggest, and only "mouthpiece" on this thread right now, but that does not mean i am alone in this way of thinking. i am tired of people putting down the dynamic i live, and the others who live it. Being this way is not sick, not demented, not dangerous, it just makes me a minority on these boards. Master's dorei

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Masterhood - 5/7/2007 1:48:32 PM   
MasterNdorei


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Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		WhiplashSmile writes: I know I did not mention anything about punishment for illegal activities in my post.

**** You are absolutly right. i have more than one thought going on different notepads right now, and i indvertently got carried away with the topic and forgot to add what i was going to say to you when something else caught my attention.

My appologies~*
Master's dorei

< Message edited by MasterNdorei -- 5/7/2007 1:50:23 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Masterhood - 5/7/2007 1:48:52 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterNdorei
Being this way is not sick, not demented, not dangerous, it just makes me a minority on these boards

I haven't said or implied that it is any of those things, simply that is it illogical and not what's actually going on.

All you have done is ask me to change who I thank.  I have no problems with that in general.

As I said since you brought up the Queen example is that giving specific thanks to a specific person does not equate to one specific person only deserving or having credit and responsibility. 

The fact that YOU have issues with ACCEPTING thanks from certain people, and care only of your masters credit is a completely different issue here.  If you add in the fact that your master may take other peoples perception into account to how good your performance was, I would think that you would want THEM to think you had performed well also.

You are bouncing all over the place here- first it's about credit, then it's about definitions, now it's somehow being told you're sick and demented?


_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MasterNdorei)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Masterhood - 5/7/2007 1:50:47 PM   
WhiplashSmile


Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline 		Anybody and everybody is a separate living human being from the other.  The OP made the statement that submissives are sperate and that slaves are not.  However so are slaves and anybody else regardless of title or label placed upon them.  No matter how hard you'd like to mentally dehumanize a human being they are still a human being.  If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck it a duck.  Foot stools are simple objects, using a slave as a foot stool is just using a human being as a foot stool, it does not make them literally become a foot stool and not a human being.

(in reply to CuriousLord)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Masterhood - 5/7/2007 1:56:20 PM   
MasterNdorei


Posts: 658
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		LA writes: You are bouncing all over the place here- first it's about credit, then it's about definitions, now it's somehow being told you're sick and demented?


*** Are you surprised there is more than one issue when discussing dynamics? i am not sure what point you are trying to make. Master's dorei

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Masterhood - 5/7/2007 2:01:43 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterNdorei
Are you surprised there is more than one issue when discussing dynamics? i am not sure what point you are trying to make.

You're the one who brought up chaos...

You are the one finally fed up with people putting down your dynamic- though I haven't seen a single person do that on this thread so far personally.  

You are the one who suggested that Whips and Archers points weren't even relevant to the thread.

I'm just saying it seems like you're throwing everything but the kitchen sink at this and pulling up whichever one looks yummiest to you, despite whether it really logically follows through or not, and then get upset when that method doesn't produce the results you want.

It seems like you're bouncing all over and just overreacting rather than going through the points of things.  I can't frame my responses to you logically if you do that.  And then you might start going on about me not responding to your own points even if they are all over the place.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MasterNdorei)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Masterhood - 5/7/2007 2:03:05 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Wow I get included in that post as focusing only on and spending so much time on when I post 1 singular reply.
Coool.
Maybe this one will get me even more lumping in and maybe an eight foot conclussion jump as well. LOL

Bottom line is when in mixed (Vanilla Company) society will generally not work according to the rules we set up for our internal relationships.
I have no problem with the concept of a slave being answerable to only their owner WITHIN the confines of their relationship. But I am also not so dense as to believe that the rest of society will recognize and respect my views on the issue.
I have enough trouble getting folks within the subculture of BDSM to recognize and respect my protocols when dealing with me and mine, let alone the wider community at large.

Want a not criminal example OK I'll play along.
Slave incures a debt for $4,000, and then tells the holder of the debt to collect it from thier Master that they are not responsible even if they (the slave) signed the loan papers. Not criminal and still the society at large will never see fit to transfer the debt to the Master's responsibility without some real life actions to pay off the debt by incurring another one in their own name.

The old military axium (sp) was you can transfer authority but never responsibility.





(in reply to WhiplashSmile)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Masterhood - 5/7/2007 2:04:55 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
The old military axium (sp) was you can transfer authority but never responsibility.

Axiom

Yay for authority transfer!

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Masterhood - 5/7/2007 2:15:42 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		The point you seem to be missing is that we can set up whatever we want to as far as how we operate WITHIN our relationships. But there are times when the way we set things up will conflict with society at large and they may not recognize a transfer of responsibility. You'll please note that I am not suggesting any specific course of conflict resolution, but rather an examination of the places where these conflicts happen and that people design thier relationships with this in mind.
How you or him or her or the other person resolves the conflict matters far less than that you plan for and resolve it with thought proactively rather than reactively.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Masterhood - 5/7/2007 2:17:49 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterNdorei

LA writes: That doesn't mean I would suddenly start believing you were not partly responsible or due credit.
 **** This is so funny to me because if i am understanding things correctly, you are telling me (as the cook) that my work is awesome, and you are not going to let go of that notion. Part of me can not help but see the irony in debating. :) But still the truth for me is that while it is nice for someone to think that, in order for me to receive the full benefit of the compliment, it must come via the One who owns me. i may be the biggest, and only "mouthpiece" on this thread right now, but that does not mean i am alone in this way of thinking. i am tired of people putting down the dynamic i live, and the others who live it. Being this way is not sick, not demented, not dangerous, it just makes me a minority on these boards. Master's dorei


It's seems to me to be very reasonable, and fairly usual, to appreciate the *hands that created* something rather lovely, whatever it is.

If I thank the *hands that created* because *I* wanted to, DESPITE knowing they'd appreciate my thanks more if given through their Owner, then I would be satisying myself.


agirl















(in reply to MasterNdorei)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Masterhood - 5/7/2007 2:26:22 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		BTW the thought process for transfering a slave's pre existing capabilitis to their owner is simple but has been missed so far.

A slave has talents and abilities and were selected in part based on those capabilities, so the reflected honor on their owner is in selecting a slave with a good skill set. My slave does many things really well which I had little to nothing to do with instilling in her. I take the laurals for her by simply saying,

"Thank you, I still believe choosing Elegant was he single best decission I ever made."

I am not responsible for providing the skill to her, but I am responsible for allowing her the opportunity to practice it.

My favorite joke compliment for her is "It's easy I wind her up I point her in the right direction and turn her loose. It's easy when you start with good materials to begin with."




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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Masterhood - 5/7/2007 2:39:09 PM   
daniL


Posts: 46
Joined: 4/12/2007
Status: offline 		Fast Reply

Even if the 'illegal activites' analogy is irritating, I will use it for the purpose of reiterating a point that was made [most recently by Archer, I believe] and posing a bit of a philosophical question/conundrum that this idea of responsibility causes. If a slave robs a bank, they are legally/criminally/morally responsible [don't comment on this separate from the following bits of this post because I am wording this like this purposely. The Master is at least morally responsible for giving the order. If the Master uses the money to pay for things-- because why else would they issue that order in the first place if they don't gain from it, right?-- They will eventually be held legally responsible as well. However, I would assume that the Master would order the slave not to implicate him [again, because that wouldn't be very clever of the Master now, would it.] Assume that this slave would follow this order

If the society makes the slave do the time, go to jail, etc, but the Master does not have to take any punishment, how is the Master even capable of taking responsiblity for those actions. Even if the Master and slave refuse to acknowledge that the slave takes responsibility, the slave must in order to do various things, like get parole, or to argue certain defenses. Call it what you will, Merriam-Webster defines responsibility as 1. the quality or state of being responsible: as a) moral, legal or mental acountability b: reliability, trustworthiness 2. something for which one is responsible.

If a slave must take/recieve punishment/reward for something, they are responsible.

In addition, even if you compare bdsm slavery to historical forms of slavery, the slave did have to take responsiblity for their actions. If they misbehaved, it was not the Master who was punished. This was true in Rome, America, and any other country. A person is responsible insomuch as they can understand/comprehend their own actions.

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RE: Masterhood - 5/7/2007 2:42:26 PM   
cjenny


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Joined: 11/27/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: daniL

In addition, even if you compare bdsm slavery to historical forms of slavery, the slave did have to take responsiblity for their actions. If they misbehaved, it was not the Master who was punished. This was true in Rome, America, and any other country. A person is responsible insomuch as they can understand/comprehend their own actions.



How can you compare them? WIITWD slavery is not even on the same page as historical slavery.....


Yup it's IMO. MO can change under certain circumstances btw.

_____________________________

*Unless I cite a source it is MO.


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Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Masterhood - 5/7/2007 2:45:36 PM   
drawntothedark


Posts: 572
Joined: 10/19/2006
From: Arkansas
Status: offline 		Very fast reply:

I have skimmed over this thread. I have not read everything but I have read most of it.

The OP in my thinking did not come out and say "this is the be all and end all of definitions" He simply gave his thoughts on how he viewed Dom/Masters. No more no less. I'm not clear why so much fuss over a opinion.


(in reply to MasterNdorei)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Masterhood - 5/7/2007 2:46:49 PM   
WhiplashSmile


Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline 		The OP was making a few statements regarding a differences between M/s and D/s dynamics as a whole.   The dynamics from one M/s relationship to another vary as it does with D/s relationships.

In regards to both  M/s and D/s relationships, these both involve interaction between two human beings.  Regardless of the label or titles thrown down.   A human being is subject to both good and bad qualities, each has their set of quirks and problems.  My point is that a sub/slave is a sperate human being apart from their dom/master regardless if it's a TPE or PPE based relationship.

I believe Archer nailed it with "you transfer authority but never responsibility".  Hell if a slave went and took out a $4,000.00 loan without consulting me, cold day in hell would I want to be automatically responsible for it.  Sure there are questions as to why a need for the money and what it was used for.   My responsibility for a slave/subs actions is limited, and this is to protect my ass.  This is why the Romans came up with laws regarding this shit way back in the days of legalized slavery.  In short even people in society could see the dangers of making a slaves owner full responsible for a slaves own actions.   It amuzes me to see somebody advocating the exact opposite here though.

The slave should be responsible and accountable first and foremost to themselves, thier Master then towards society.  In short excercise in self control, meeting their Masters wants and a needs, then making certain they don't cause anybody harm outside of the relationship by breaking laws of society designed to protect other people.

At the end of the day, the slave still has a choice in what actions they will or will not carry out, just as much as a submissive does or anybody else for that matter of fact.   We have these wonderful things called a brain, a mind, a conciousness, emotions and so many things that makes us human beings.   Some people must believe slaves are more like some robotic replacement for a human beings or something here.

(in reply to MasterNdorei)
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