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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

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1. You really don't care what was said

Yeah, that's why I posted the RECORDING ITSELF. Because I don't care about the actual conversation.

DUHHHHH!

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ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

KY,

Keep arguing with fargle, it is a perfect display of your mental acuity...

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

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1. You really don't care what was said

Yeah, that's why I posted the RECORDING ITSELF. Because I don't care about the actual conversation.

DUHHHHH!

And you completely ignored the fact that I said that the mp3 file is NOT the same as the written text you posted.

It's been altered, redacted, changed ... use whatever adjective you wish.

Why? Do you care?

I suggest that it's immaterial to you what the actual facts are, which is one reason you never bothered to compare the two, even after I told you they were different.

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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Well, what are the material differences?

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Well, what are the material differences?

Well.... why not click on the mp3 file, and follow the printed transcript?

I think there are material differences. Do you?

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There is also "context" not directly part of either of the two sources you have, but are important to understand what occurred, specifically the constant "workshop" or "forum" callers that Rush receives, and tries to screen out.

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ORIGINAL: caitlyn

in all the time I've been away from these forums

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Casualty figures have dropped significantly.

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Now, the person I know that spent a lot of time over there (and yes, contrary to popular opinion, soldiers actually do come home), would tell me that the surge had real meaning and matters to a great extent.

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ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Now, back on topic, while not wishing to justify the war (which won't stop Fargle from insinuating it anyway ... probably in all caps), it's pretty clear that "something" is starting to have an impact over there. Casualty figures have dropped significantly.
 

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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Progress is defined, by US Law, to consist of the following benchmarks ( Public Law 110-28 )

Benchmark

1. Forming a Constitutional Review Committee and completing the constitutional review.
2. Enacting and implementing legislation on de-Ba’athification.
3. Enacting and implementing legislation to ensure the equitable distribution of hydrocarbon resources of the people of Iraq without regard to the sect or ethnicity of recipients, and enacting and implementing legislation to ensure that the energy resources of Iraq benefit Sunni Arabs, Shia Arabs, Kurds, and other Iraqi citizens in an equitable manner.
4. Enacting and implementing legislation on procedures to form semi-autonomous regions.
5. Enacting and implementing legislation establishing an Independent High Electoral Commission, provincial elections law, provincial council authorities, and a date for provincial elections.
6. Enacting and implementing legislation addressing amnesty.
7. Enacting and implementing legislation establishing a strong militia disarmament program to ensure that such security forces are accountable only to the central government and loyal to the Constitution of Iraq.
8. Establishing supporting political, media, economic, and services committees in support of the Baghdad security plan.
9. Providing three trained and ready brigades to support Baghdad operations.
10. Providing Iraqi commanders with all authorities to execute this plan and to make tactical and operational decisions, in consultation with U.S. commanders, without political intervention, to include the authority to pursue all extremists, including Sunni insurgents and Shiite militias.
11. Ensuring that Iraqi security forces are providing even-handed enforcement of the law.
12. Ensuring that, according to President Bush, Prime Minister Maliki said “the Baghdad security plan will not provide a safe haven for any outlaws, regardless of [their] sectarian or political affiliation.”
13. Reducing the level of sectarian violence in Iraq and eliminating militia control of local security.
14. Establishing all of the planned joint security stations in neighborhoods across Baghdad.
15. Increasing the number of Iraqi security forces units capable of operating independently.
16. Ensuring that the rights of minority political parties in the Iraqi legislature are protected.
17. Allocating and spending $10 billion in Iraqi revenues for reconstruction projects, including delivery of essential services, on an equitable basis.
18. Ensuring that Iraq’s political authorities are not undermining or making false accusations against members of the Iraqi security forces.

Source: GAO analysis of UN, U.S., and Iraqi data. United States Government Accountability Office

As of August 30, 2007, the Iraqi government met 3, partially met 4, and did not meet 11 of its 18 benchmarks.

Even giving partial credit, you can't crack 40%. That's a failure.

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ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Well, one thing has happened in all the time I've been away from these forums ... election day has gotten closer, and the tone has gotten more harsh.
 
Now, back on topic, while not wishing to justify the war (which won't stop Fargle from insinuating it anyway ... probably in all caps), it's pretty clear that "something" is starting to have an impact over there. Casualty figures have dropped significantly.
 
Now, the person I know that spent a lot of time over there (and yes, contrary to popular opinion, soldiers actually do come home), would tell me that the surge had real meaning and matters to a great extent ... which I'm sure would get the response from Synergy, that troops over there really don't have even close to as good a view as he has from behind the computer in his den.
 
FirmHanky ... don't back Rush ... and if you happen to know him, can he maybe get me some uppers to help out during finals?
 
All in good fun ... Caitz

caitz,

Welcome back.

I'm not on here that much anymore right now, myself.  I've been working a major consulting job out of town for the last several months, on top of my normal workload, and what little time I have left I have to decide whether or not to spend it on the forums, or with Treasure.

Generally, Treasure wins. 

On to topic ....

I think you may remember a thread that I was heavily involved in several months ago (the one where Northern Gent and I got to refighting the First World War, I think).  My main thesis has always been that the winner will be the side that refuses to quit, and that it is the American Congress and the American people that have always been the main focus of the insurgency/Islamicist attacks in Iraq.

In another thread, I even charted US casualties against political developments in the US and Iraq, and there seems to be a pretty convincing connection.

I think that Bush's reelection put a hurt on a lot of Arabic calculations.  The failure of the Democratic Congress to live up to it's antiwar rhetoric has been even more devastating, I think. 

The surge, on top of that, I think has convinced a large number of insurgents and the Iraqi people that the Americans simply aren't going to be made to disappear, and therefore some sort of accommodation is/was needed.

So, while the "war" isn't quite won yet, and things could still spiral out of control, I think that things are certainly headed in the right direction. 

Was it simply "the surge" that has caused the change on the ground?  No.  It was a factor, however, along with a reduced Sunni population due to migration, along with revulsion of the general Iraqi population to AQ terror attacks, along with the seeming inability of the AQ and Sunni propaganda war's victory with the Democratic Party to be translated into any major change of American position on the ground in Iraq, and other factors.

Some people want to point to the start of the turn around as happening "before" the surge, and therefore able to condemn the surge as "just another failed policy". 

These are often also the same people who then claim there has been no progress at all (I call em the "cake and eat it too" crowd).

The truth is that wars are often won and lost for many reasons, and the surge was just another factor.  I suggest it will be a pretty good question for future grad students writing their Master's thesis to determine how much importance to finally place on it.

Firm

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Some people want to point to the start of the turn around as happening "before" the surge, and therefore able to condemn the surge as "just another failed policy".

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  I think that Bush's reelection put a hurt on a lot of Arabic calculations.  The failure of the Democratic Congress to live up to it's antiwar rhetoric has been even more devastating, I think. 

• Hamas was elected by the Palestinians - BAD
  
• Pakistan is growing more unstable by the day - BAD
  
• Al Qaeda now uses Iraq as a training ground - BAD
  
• Al Qaeda now uses Iraq as a recruiting ground - BAD
  
• Taliban resurgent in Afghanistan - BAD
  
• Abu Graib- BAD
  
• Torture - BAD

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  The surge, on top of that, I think has convinced a large number of insurgents and the Iraqi people that the Americans simply aren't going to be made to disappear, and therefore some sort of accommodation is/was needed. 

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So, while the "war" isn't quite won yet, and things could still spiral out of control, I think that things are certainly headed in the right direction. 

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Was it simply "the surge" that has caused the change on the ground?  No.  It was a factor,

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however, along with a reduced Sunni population due to migration,

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  along with revulsion of the general Iraqi population to AQ terror attacks,

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  Sunni propaganda war's victory with the Democratic Party to be translated into any major change of American position on the ground in Iraq, and other factors.

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  Some people want to point to the start of the turn around as happening "before" the surge, and therefore able to condemn the surge as "just another failed policy".