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safe, SANE & Consensual - 9/3/2007 10:41:39 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		Something I read today raised the questions in my mind that I will ask in this post. 

I know of someone who has stated that his girlfriend is currently in therapy 6 hours a WEEK.  Every other week there's a new issue that needs resolving, regarding his girlfriend balking at certain things he demands of her in a D's relationship.  Every other week he asks for advise on how to better guide his submissive toward doing what he wants the way he wants.

I have my own thoughts on this, which I won't discuss in the original post.  I'm just curious what other's might think about the ethics of beating your mentally distressed/disturbed/confused (what ever word applies) girlfriend into submission. 

Do you think someone who requires such extensive counceling, as to attend therapy 6 hours a week, is emotionally and/or mentally capable of actually consenting to submit as a slave?

On the surface, does this scream more of an abuser with control issues to you or do you see this as a responsible Dominant  who acknowledges that his slave needs counceling and who continues to seek to enrich his relationship with his girlfriend through a D's/M's dynamic?

As a quick disclaimer.  I'm not implying someone who attends counceling can't make good choices for themselves regarding BDSM or any other life choices.  Nor am I implying that attending counceling implies that a person is not SANE.  My questions are geared toward inviting conflicting views.  Whatever your view is, I welcome your thoughts.
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RE: safe, SANE & Consensual - 9/3/2007 11:00:58 AM   
Viridana


Posts: 754
Status: offline 		Councelling doesn't have to imply that you are incapable of making sane descisions, that I agree with you.

To me it all depends on timing. I have (as many) had a negative emotional struggle to battle a good part of my life, that required councelling at the worst times. I found that during those worst times where I was using the councelling sessions to get to know myself better, analysing my needs and learning new ways of both thinking and dealing with everything life throws at me, I really needed to be alone. I really needed time to be able to be independent and to have control over the course of individual parts of the therapy.

I was single at the time so it was no biggie to just not date. But if I had been in a relationship, I would have needed my spouse to back off a bit for the same reasons given above. This was a state that I needed to sort out and it just takes time and during this time you really don't need anybody interfering (in my opinion) because in my experience you're more emotionally unstable that usual.

With the proper care, and support that difficult period went by and the sun began to shine again. I realized when I'm doing better that even though I am perfectly capable (and always has been) to make safe sane descisions for myself, that time where I was at my most vulnerable I could have failed to do so if I had had negative pressure on me. It was a matter of timing. We all have emotional hardships now and then in life and then we become very vulnerable to pressure. I, for one, do consider it manipulation and does breach the "sane" category of the safe,sane and consensual trio for me. I believe sane consensuality means that you are emotionally stable enough to make the descisions.

I don't want to totally take responsibility out of the hand of the other party. They have to have both the guts and wits to tell the origin of pressure to back off. And they have to take care of themselves and make sure they are not being taken advantage of in these situations. But manipulation of a person who is emotionally unstable is in my book both unethical and wrong. This is my general feeling to it all....

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RE: safe, SANE & Consensual - 9/3/2007 11:02:41 AM   
mstrjx


Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		To my understanding, the phrase (which some abhor) 'safe, sane and consensual' doesn't necessarily mean 'sane' in the standard mental health sorta way.  The way you would like pigeonhole sanity would probably preclude a good 50-80% of the people who've been 'here' for years.

Anything that impairs judgement 'in the moment' is what is implied.  Usually, this refers to alcohol and/or drugs.  Not someone who is taking (or should be taking) Xanax.

Jeff

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RE: safe, SANE & Consensual - 9/3/2007 11:14:46 AM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		if someone dose not come to you under their own will what is the point. it is to much work most of the time it ends badly

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RE: safe, SANE & Consensual - 9/3/2007 12:03:28 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


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Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		Viridana, thank you for taking the time to share your experiences as related to my post.  It being a matter of timing was very insiteful, I hadn't thought of this myself and appreciate a new perspective that adds to my own understanding regarding the issue.  Again, thank you for sharing your experience and insight.

Mstrjx, I can relate to how many abhor the SSC mantra.  I'm more of a R.A.C.K kinda gal myself.  My choice of topic headers may have been misfortunate.  I hope it will not derail others from the actual post and my interest in hearing the thoughts on others regarding the questions I raised.  In the context of a BDSM play scene, I agree wholeheartedly that the SSC implies that the person is capable of making a decision for themself  in an unimpaired manner at that moment.  The question wasn't really geared toward a BDSM play scenario.  I was thinking more along the lines of two people who are working toward a relationship in which strong encouragement is being brought to bear upon a person who may or may not be stable enough to make such a commitment as being a slave implies.

Latexbaby64, I didn't want you to feel left out.  I'm not sure that your answer was exactly on topic, but the sentiment is certainly true in most cases.  Why bother, indeed.

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 9/3/2007 12:07:15 PM >

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RE: safe, SANE & Consensual - 9/3/2007 12:04:22 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I personally reject the concept of SSC.  I prefer the concept 'RACK'; Risk Aware Consensual Kink.

The situation you are describing is complicated.  On one hand, many of us may disagree with how their relationship is orchestrated.  We something akin to battered wife syndrome.  The catch comes, when you realize how similar they are linked;

Have you ever tried to encourage someone to leave a dangerous relationship before they were ready to admit/accept it was dangerous?  You might as well be teaching pigs to dance.

Hence the term 'Risk Aware.'  She's consenting, and actively participating in a relationship where the risks are clear, that you may disapprove of.  We can 'feel' for her all we like; but until she decides she wants change, that's about all we can do.

Stephan




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RE: safe, SANE & Consensual - 9/3/2007 12:11:36 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
Do you think someone who requires such extensive counceling, as to attend therapy 6 hours a week, is emotionally and/or mentally capable of actually consenting to submit as a slave?


Emotional conflict and disturbance is far too complex to reduce this to a simple "Yes" or "No" answer.  I have known some individuals who appeared outwardly troubled, and who calmed considerably when within a D/s relationship.

I have also known troubled individuals who attempted to resolve their issues within the realm of BDSM, and only succeeded in creating new issues for themselves.  I have known outwardly well-adjusted individuals who's ventures into the lifestyle proved extremely traumatic.

Can a troubled individual thrive within a D/s or M/s dynamic?  It is possible.  The determining factor is always going to be the particular troubles with which said individual grapples.  Much more information is necessary to give a more definitive answer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
On the surface, does this scream more of an abuser with control issues to you or do you see this as a responsible Dominant who acknowledges that his slave needs counceling and who continues to seek to enrich his relationship with his girlfriend through a D's/M's dynamic?


The pattern of the abuser would be to dissuade the individual from seeking or continuing counselling.  The pattern of the abuser would be to isolate the individual.  Nothing in your OP supports that pattern.

It is not impossible that the boyfriend is an abuser, but what you have described thus far is a perhaps misguided, poorly structured D/s relationship, but not necessarily an abusive one.


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RE: safe, SANE & Consensual - 9/3/2007 12:53:40 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


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quote:
Original:  Stephann
The situation you are describing is complicated.  On one hand, many of us may disagree with how their relationship is orchestrated.  We something akin to battered wife syndrome.  The catch comes, when you realize how similar they are linked;


quote:


Original:  Celticlord 2112
Emotional conflict and disturbance is far too complex to reduce this to a simple "Yes" or "No" answer.  I have known some individuals who appeared outwardly troubled, and who calmed considerably when within a D/s relationship.

I have also known troubled individuals who attempted to resolve their issues within the realm of BDSM, and only succeeded in creating new issues for themselves.  I have known outwardly well-adjusted individuals who's ventures into the lifestyle proved extremely traumatic.

Can a troubled individual thrive within a D/s or M/s dynamic?  It is possible.  The determining factor is always going to be the particular troubles with which said individual grapples.  Much more information is necessary to give a more definitive answer.


You two actually managed to strike right to the motivation of my asking the questions.  I did, personally, relate other topics to a situation similar to a Battered Wife syndrome.

I almost posted a very judgemental and accusatory response to this statement about his girlfriend being in therapy 6 hours a week.  I had the post all typed up and ready to send, before I stopped myself.  A nagging chastisement in my own mind sort of screamed, 'don't be judgemental' and 'don't jump to conclusions'.  After considering these questions, I deleted what I wrote and opted not to post.  But, the situation still nagged at me, and raised more questions.  Some of those questions, I posed in the original post.  I was curious how other's viewed the situation. 

quote:


Original:  Celticlord2112
The pattern of the abuser would be to dissuade the individual from seeking or continuing counselling.  The pattern of the abuser would be to isolate the individual.  Nothing in your OP supports that pattern.

It is not impossible that the boyfriend is an abuser, but what you have described thus far is a perhaps misguided, poorly structured D/s relationship, but not necessarily an abusive one.



You are right, it isn't a text book abuser tactic.  If one is to assume that the person has a say in whether his girfriend's therapy takes place or not.  Assuming the therapy isn't court mandated for whatever reason.  Point being, you are correct.  There really isn't enough information to form any sound judgements.
 



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RE: safe, SANE & Consensual - 9/3/2007 12:58:01 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		You asked the question.  Let me throw it back at you....

Do YOU think this individual who needs counselling should be in a D/s relationship?  Do you feel she is being abused by her boyfriend?

(and can you elaborate on your answer?)


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RE: safe, SANE & Consensual - 9/3/2007 1:02:24 PM   
earthycouple


Posts: 4462
Joined: 2/19/2006
Status: offline 		*Without having read replies already made* 

I simply don't know how any of us can post an intelligent answer to your questions without knowing more about the couple.  I think it could go either way.  I first think how do you know he's "beating her into submission"?  and then the questions only roll from there.

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RE: safe, SANE & Consensual - 9/3/2007 1:03:31 PM   
unbroken33


Posts: 56
Joined: 2/19/2007
Status: offline 		Well, is she going to counselling for the things he's asking of her in the D/s relationship?  If so, then that indicates a problem.  On the other hand if it's related to other stuff, then no, not really an abuser.  But if it's not him and she needs therapy that extensive, what is she doing complicating her life with a relationship?  Sounds like a boat load of stress she really shouldn't be adding to herself.  Maybe she ought to slow down with this guy and get whatever worked out...

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RE: safe, SANE & Consensual - 9/3/2007 1:05:49 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		Why do I get the feeling we have already "met" this "friend"?

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RE: safe, SANE & Consensual - 9/3/2007 1:18:16 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

You asked the question.  Let me throw it back at you....

Do YOU think this individual who needs counselling should be in a D/s relationship?  Do you feel she is being abused by her boyfriend?

(and can you elaborate on your answer?)



NOOO the pressure!  (whines and cries and stomps her foot) Not fair!  I asked first!

Ok, all teasing aside.

Should THIS couple be in a D's relationship?  Based off the few questions I posed, I wouldn't be able to say.  My answers would be as non-commital as yours had been.

Based off THIS couple in particuar.  The couple that I have in mind that inspired my questions. Based off the actions, reactions and behaviors noted over the last month or so; based off my opinion that I do not believe there is any evidence to suggest they are in a healthy relationship.  I would say I do not think she should be in a D's relationship with the person who currently claims to be her Dominant.  Could she be in a healthy, rewarding D'S relationship with another?  I believe it is possible that she could be.

Do I think the situation in hand is a potential recipe for disaster?  In THIS case, yes, I most definitely do.  Shall I elaborate further? 

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RE: safe, SANE & Consensual - 9/3/2007 1:23:59 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		What I'm really driving at here, isn't really a question of what we think as anonymous internet posters.

We like to think our advice is helpful, meaningful, and can improve other people's lives.  Yet the bias is usually towards pushing people in flux or trouble to just break up.  Rarely are people told to work to overcome their problems.  I think this is evidence of a disposable society, but that's another tangent.

Frankly, he very well could be abusing her.  What does it matter?  Until she actively seeks to end the abuse, we aren't in a position to do anything except the one thing you think you shouldn't do; be judgmental.

I'm a very judgmental person.  I constantly make assessments about the value and meanings of situations, people, and ideas.  I think being critical (read thoughtful, not attacking) of other peoples experiences and thoughts helps me to grow and better understand the world.  What you are seeing may seem wrong, inappropriate, abusive, or even downright disgusting.  It's perfectly fine to think these things.  It's fine to share those feelings with people you know.  I don't think it's fine to throw it in a public forum like a random icepacked slushball.  It would likely do more damage than good; people really don't need internet strangers to grab them by the ears and shake (much as the shakers seem to believe otherwise.)

Hope that clarifies my thoughts.

Stephan


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RE: safe, SANE & Consensual - 9/3/2007 1:29:59 PM   
Squeakers


Posts: 489
Joined: 10/3/2006
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quote:

Do you think someone who requires such extensive counceling, as to attend therapy 6 hours a week, is emotionally and/or mentally capable of actually consenting to submit as a slave?
   Ummm it depends---some might handle it some might not.   It also depends on how aggressively he is presuing it.   Is he involved in the aspects of her therapy?   Not necessarily going with her, but does he ask how she is getting along with things do they speak about it.   Personally I think that part is important because it is fantastic to have support all the way around.  
quote:

On the surface, does this scream more of an abuser with control issues to you or do you see this as a responsible Dominant  who acknowledges that his slave needs counceling and who continues to seek to enrich his relationship with his girlfriend through a D's/M's dynamic? 
   Again that can go either way depending on how they are handling it.  
My advice though is to take it slow.   Therapy is like a dance.   Two steps forward, four steps back.   Start all over again.   Some problems can take years and years to fix.  
     If she is going 6 hours a week, is that like 6 hour sessions or is she in some sort of day treatment program?   It sort of sounds like she is just beginning, as a person begins to heal, the time required is less, it can change and a person may need more sessions than before, but six hours sounds like she might be just starting out.  In that case, he may want to just back off with the D/s and just be supportive.   Learning the Dynamics of D/s in a relationship is VERY maddening, then lump on some other issues.    That in itself might drive a sane person insane.     

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RE: safe, SANE & Consensual - 9/3/2007 1:33:54 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		I know who this particular post is about and because of that, I am going to refrain from commenting.

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RE: safe, SANE & Consensual - 9/3/2007 1:37:13 PM   
MistressSassy66


Posts: 1675
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline 		I think I would be worried if the D in question was using
humiliation techniques in training.
A spanking could damage a person,but I think
verbal put downs would cause more harm to a
person who may be struggling with self-esteem.

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In the Immortal Words of Bob....Fuck the dumb shit.

"I love you not only for what you are,But for what I am when I'm with you."- Opening line from a poem by Roy Croft

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RE: safe, SANE & Consensual - 9/3/2007 1:45:52 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		I hate the 'sane' requirement.  Whoever came up with the "SSC" bit really wasn't the brightest.

Cutting yourself or allowing someone else to cut you isn't sane.  Wanting to be tied down, used as a toilet, anally violated, etc., isn't sane.  This lifestyle, by and large, isn't sane.  The "safe" and "consentual" parts are the only two parts that even start to make sense.  "Safe", when defined, is a good point.  "Consent" is something that isn't something people seem to understand too well.  It's not a black-and-white issue.

Point being, for anyone to provide consent, they should be aware of what's typically considered to be the major points of concern/interest by each instance of the involved/observing parties.  Beyond this, if the person's one you might consider insane, who cares?  Personally, I think most of the people on Earth are insane and/or mentally retarded.  I still recognize the viability of such individuals' right to consent.

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RE: safe, SANE & Consensual - 9/3/2007 1:55:03 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline 		The random icepacked slushball, are thoughts that I posed in my own mind that I am seeking to clarify for myself.  Had I any intention of taking the couple and shaking them by the ears, I would have done so.  I've no compunction against speaking my mind when I feel compelled to do so.  The fact of the matter is your statement actually confirms my initial "shut the hell up Charlotte, and mind your own business" thought I had.  I originally WANTED to take the couple and after properly shoving my foot up their asses, gladly walked around with a pair of His and Her's slippers. 

The questions I posed really don't relate DIRECTLY to the couple at hand.  Instead, I began to debate with myself, the ethics of the situation.  How that situation might have played out under different circumstances, with different people who behaved in what I would consider a more responsible manner.  I was curious how others viewed the basic concepts of the ethics/dynamics involved.   

I don't expect there to be a pat, concise, applied to all situations answer.  I am simply curious as to how other's view the ethics of the situation.  Some I might agree with, some might offer me a new insight into the situation.  Some I might think have their heads so far up their asses, there's no room for my foot.

If you don't have an answer, because the question is too vague, that too is an answer to my question and something I find personally to be of use in how I process my own initial judgemental thoughts on any given situation.




< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 9/3/2007 1:57:43 PM >

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RE: safe, SANE & Consensual - 9/3/2007 2:05:09 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		There are plenty of people that prey on folks who do not or are incapable of getting "their shit together."

It's a fact of life....Says little about both parties that engage in such bullshit.  Especially the person who seeks out those that are severely damaged.

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