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ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Please do elaborate.

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ORIGINAL: Aswad

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ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Please do elaborate.

By my understanding, I have experienced the mental state of nibbana. It does not have any wants/desires in it. It is devoid of such things entirely. In fact, "void" or "devoid" is probably a viable description of the state in general. The concept does not have any meaning that maps to any equivalent in that state. Lust, yes. Love, yes. Desire, no.

To abuse an appropriate quote, "It's only when we've lost everything that we're free to do anything".

Or, transposed into this context, "It's only when you relinquish everything that you gain everything."

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ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Actually, that would be my understanding and pretty much how I meant it.  I suppose it is beyond my current ability to grasp, but I still think of lust to be an aspect of desire.  Love, I believe, can exist pure and whole without desires, but lust?  I don't think I agree with that.

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ORIGINAL: Aswad

Been there, done that, as I said.

Acquiescence of wants and needs is not incompatible with pursuit or appreciation.

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ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

That's pretty fascinating to me.  I'll have to give it some more thought.

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Bear with me here, I'm not disputing or degrading your experience.

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Having attained such a state of enlightment, do you feel a sense of loss for having relinquished it?

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I know my way of thinking is probably anathema to the entire philosophy, which would be why I have not grasped it yet.

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I just think that I would feel a sense of loss to have achieved a state, only to return back to my current realm of existence. 

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ORIGINAL: Aswad

"Before enlightenment, chopping wood and carrying water.
After enlightenment, chopping wood and carrying water."

-- Zen proverb

It's possible to maintain it indefinitely, or to reattain that state of mind if lost. And while the difference is night and day, it's mostly just very different. Well worth seeking, but not necessarily something that is suitable for everyone. I don't know what works for you and what doesn't. Nor can I show you the way, at least not at the moment.

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ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Thank you for sharing. 

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ORIGINAL: Aswad

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

I see it as a statement of complete trust in my judgement and ethics that I will not slit her throat, and that she wishes to go wherever I wish to take her.

So far, we agree. However, I then make the assumption that she doesn't have adequate grounds for such trust, because there are only two people in this world that have enough insight into my mind for that, apart from myself.

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Among other things because I know there are kinks in my inventory that almost universally fall into the "not only no, but hell no" category for whoever wants to play, although I have found a few rare people who share most of them. And because my ethics include consent, which kind of means I can't go with "she consents to let me do whatever I want to do because she trusts me not to do what I want to do". It either invalidates the consent or the dynamic.

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The "slit her throat" bit was not something I'd do, it's just a "hey, wake up!". Makes her think about the level I'm telling her to consider, because there are other things on my list that might be well beyond what she's willing to deal with, and that she simply assumes aren't on my list, or doesn't even consider at all because it's unthinkable to her.

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I can't work with "I consent, but I'm not telling you what I'm consenting to".

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In such cases I look upon it as 'testing the water a little at a time'. Start easy, introduce a new idea and give her time to adjust, if all goes well, introduce the next idea and so on.

Don't worry. I progress at an appropriate pace. There's molding, shaping and training to be done, and I am a perfectionist, so I don't feel particularly inclined to rush into things. I use techniques learned from cognitive science and cognitive behavioural therapy to get a slave to be the right one for me. It takes time, but it sticks, and it runs deep.

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If I am as trustworthy as she believes me to be, as I know myself to be, she has nothing to fear, whether she knows the risks or not.

Depends on what you mean by trustworthy.

It's an awfully big word to leave undefined in such a context as a blank check.

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For the only ones I would hold as slave are those I love, and for those I love, I'd die before betraying their trust.

I'd hold anyone a slave, as long as it didn't conflict with my ethics, which effectively translates into having consent. Love is not necessary for me. Which is not to say that it's incompatible, merely that it's a seperate dimension of the relationship, one that is not necessary for me to be responsible and/or trustworthy.

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

I'll skip throught he preliminaries, except to say it is a pleasure to meet you

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You are confusing trust with certain knowledge.

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Ah, well, explaining unusual kinks which she may not suspect you have is certainly a good introductory practice. I agree with that one.

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Oh? Does your relationship include experimentation and growth? If so, and you hav an LTR partner involved, then chances are this kind of consent has been given or implied.

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I develop my slave's skills and cooperation through helping her develop her self-awareness. She does what she does because this is an expression of who she is and who she wants to be.

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I was unaware there is more than one kind of "trustworthy".

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I mean that I do not betray my promises, nor do I betray those for whom I've accepted responsibility. In a loving relationship I add that it means I do not give up on the relationship or my beloved (though she is free to give up on me, if she feels the need). Good friends and family fit that latter criteria as well.

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If I love myself, then I am responsible to me to not let myself down in the field of ethics and morality.

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ORIGINAL: Aswad

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

Ah, well, explaining unusual kinks which she may not suspect you have is certainly a good introductory practice. I agree with that one.

~nods~

Point being, I have plenty, and a good number aren't things one would normally guess at. That may not show without talking it over in detail, and I've had people reach that level of trust before reaching that level of familiarity. (Basically, I tend to be quickly trusted by people, and make people feel at ease, safe.)

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Oh? Does your relationship include experimentation and growth? If so, and you hav an LTR partner involved, then chances are this kind of consent has been given or implied.

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I was unaware there is more than one kind of "trustworthy".

"Worthy of what kind of trust, or trust in what?" was what I meant.

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I mean that I do not betray my promises, nor do I betray those for whom I've accepted responsibility. In a loving relationship I add that it means I do not give up on the relationship or my beloved (though she is free to give up on me, if she feels the need). Good friends and family fit that latter criteria as well.

~nods~

Commitment and a measure of Integrity, then.

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If I love myself, then I am responsible to me to not let myself down in the field of ethics and morality.

I'm not inclined to let myself down morally or ethically.

But my ethos does not prohibit anything that is done under informed consent.

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

These would be hard limits for me. I've no desire or interest in doing either, and thus far I've not had any arguments over that (well, once, but I refused to consent to it).

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My standard is that everything I do should be something I can do repeatedly.

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And a solid foundation of ethics that benefit those in my life as well as life itself. The trust is not based on one or two features, but an integrated personality encompassing many valued qualities.

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Mine does. There are things I simply will not do.

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As I love and value those who entrust themselves to me, so too I love and value their well-being and happiness. I will not jeopardize either for the sake of pursuing a kink.

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On the other hand, it is amazing how much can be included on the To-Do list within such limits as those.

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ORIGINAL: Aswad

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

My standard is that everything I do should be something I can do repeatedly.

Rather concise. I would add "and indefinitely" to that, I think.

A lot of things can be done repeatedly for a few weeks to a few years, then do harm.

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And a solid foundation of ethics that benefit those in my life as well as life itself. The trust is not based on one or two features, but an integrated personality encompassing many valued qualities.

Ah. But there's the rub. I've yet to encounter two people with the same idea of ethics, except those who have an extremely minimalist ethic with little to no room for interpretation. For that matter, there's no act that has been universally reviled in all cultures at all times, though two or three come close. Morals and ethics follow fashions.

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Mine does. There are things I simply will not do.

Which makes it simpler to conflate trust with other things, as the assumptions made by a potential bottom/sub/slave are more likely to hold in your case than in mine. I can quite definitely be trusted not to cross a line I have agreed not to cross, even one that is put in very general terms. But assuming certain lines are shared is unlikely to be a good idea.

Hence, making her think about the need for common ground (which you have implicitly ceded in your argument), and making her realize that there is no certain or definite common ground with a blank check. As I've said in the past, consent is a lot simpler for more basic play than for things that are on the far fringes of edgeplay.

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As I love and value those who entrust themselves to me, so too I love and value their well-being and happiness. I will not jeopardize either for the sake of pursuing a kink.

In the cases where love is a part of the relationship, I agree.

But I've had people explicitly ask not to have that element included in any way, shape or form.

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On the other hand, it is amazing how much can be included on the To-Do list within such limits as those.

Definitely. Here, we certainly agree again.

Health,
al-Aswad.

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

For me, "repeatedly" without qualification excludes those practises.

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It is incumbent upon those involved to be sure these ethics are understood and shared.

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Again, that depends upon the degree of informed consent one is after.

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Perhaps I should be saying that if she has informed trust in me, she can (if she so chooses) dispense with informed consent for any activity.

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And as I have no expectation this would go to a court of law (and if it did, I doubt I could construct any argument, regardless of what was said or agreed upon, that would overthrow the bias in favour of a female slave vs a male master), I do not worry about such liabilities.

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I've been made aware of the fact that such people exist. I've not met them (that I knew of) and quite simply could not become involved with such individuals.

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Simply put, I lack the psychology needed to engage in bdsm on a casual basis. For me, bdsm expresses deep-rooted spiritual beliefs in love, and casual play is just too superficial for me.

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By my understanding, I have experienced the mental state of nibbana. It does not have any wants/desires in it. It is devoid of such things entirely. In fact, "void" or "devoid" is probably a viable description of the state in general. The concept does not have any meaning that maps to any equivalent in that state. Lust, yes. Love, yes. Desire, no.

To abuse an appropriate quote, "It's only when we've lost everything that we're free to do anything".

Or, transposed into this context, "It's only when you relinquish everything that you gain everything."  

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ORIGINAL: Aswad

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

For me, "repeatedly" without qualification excludes those practises.

~nods~

I prefer to be a notch more precise, and it was concise enough to leave room for it.

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And as I have no expectation this would go to a court of law (and if it did, I doubt I could construct any argument, regardless of what was said or agreed upon, that would overthrow the bias in favour of a female slave vs a male master), I do not worry about such liabilities.

Around these parts, a signed consent form covers just about anything, and mitigates the rest.

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ORIGINAL: Aswad

ChainsandFreedom,

No worries. I know what it was; what word describes it is secondary, as is the detail of how- if at all- it fits in the teaching of any specific religion. I went with what a Buddhist told me when he asserted that it was nibbana. Personally, I've usually referred to it as fudoshin or mushin. It recurs in various religious and spiritual paths, including Zen and Christianity. Although, in the latter case, it was mostly lost with Paul.

Whether it is perceived as a permanent state or not, I don't know. Couldn't care less.
For me, it wasn't, although it became available to me through experiencing it once.
And it was a life altering experience, with lasting effects of a positive nature.
Glimpses of this sort are called sa or satori in some traditions, IIRC.
Of course, terminology isn't always my strong point, I admit.
I universally prefer direct experience in that regard.

As for individuality, it is not so much that it ceases to exist, as that it is seamless with the background of reality. Self and Other remain, but have no boundary to seperate them. I am the causative agent and locus of perception, but there is no point where I end and all begins. Neither is there past, present or future. The veil is lifted, and it's all one.

As for what one might feel, I can only go by what I felt and speculate from that.

As for the quote, the former quote was used mostly as a bridge, due to its familiarity and how easily grasped it is. The latter quote is more to the point you are making, although it isn't even really so much giving up, as it is simply letting go of everything, including wishes, desires, hopes, fears, and really life itself.

Hope that makes more sense.

Health,
al-Aswad.

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

And how would you defend that document against accusations of coercion?
How would you demonstrate she signed it freely, and not under duress?

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Again, this seems to me to come down to fighting the bias that will exist in favour of a female submissive vs the disfavour shown to a male master.

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ORIGINAL: Bobkgin

I'd be very interested if this should come up in a topic of its own someday. [...] Out of respect for Winsome and her topic I won't go into this here.