RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed?

RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed? (Full Version)

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Owner59 -> RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed? (12/7/2007 10:10:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Do you never tire of namecalling in place of intelligent discussion, of demonizing, dehumanizing or belittling anyone with whom you disagree? quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Don`t try to explain reality,truth or facts to this guy.He`s from neo-con land,where up is down,in is out and black is white. The new 3rd party,the Neo-Conservatives,are some of the most selfish,pigheaded,arrogant,ignorant,abstinent, MFers in America`s history. You`re new here(welcome!btw),and a very nice,polite and mindful poster.I`m not exactly sure,but I `d bet you`re a member of the armed forces.You seem to have a real grasp on issues and are open minded. Not everyone is like yourself,though. Good luck! Did I mention that neo-cons were also self-righteous,dis-honest,and self-deluded? Calling Valerie Plame a "desk jockey",and not a "real agent", is pretty fuck`n far from intelligent.Calling a group of assholes what they are,isn`t belittling.It`s what happens to assholes.You play dirty,... and whine,whine, whine ,when called on it. Crying towels are in the lobby,on the far right...

Muttling -> RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed? (12/7/2007 11:26:13 PM)
Sanity, I presented to you a prime example as to why it is so important for our intelligence community to be held responsible for their actions and for them to be restricted from destroying evidence of their actions. You have totally ignored an obvious example of why your postions are greatly flawed and called others ignorant for not agreeing with you. Your defense of your position is non-sensical and my experience is that you can't reason with the non-sensical. I hope you will some day grow up and learn the realities of our world. Mutt

luckydog1 -> RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed? (12/7/2007 11:38:02 PM)
Muttling didn't Sandy Berger simply stick classified material in his pants and walk out to steal it for political reasons? Doesn't sound like Iron clad security to me

Muttling -> RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed? (12/7/2007 11:59:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Muttling didn't Sandy Berger simply stick classified material in his pants and walk out to steal it for political reasons? Doesn't sound like Iron clad security to me Yes he did. HOWEVER, what was the level of the security of the items he took? There are multiple levels of classification and the tapes we are discussing would currently rank at the highest level in my opinion. That said, we have LOTS of technology that Mr. Berger could not access without going through painful procedures. They include communications encryption data, chemical weapons design data, biological weapons design data, nuclear weapons design data, names of intelligence contacts, and FAR MORE. The data we are discussing would obviously fall into that category as it discloses the identities of our best interrogators and the techniques they use. That said, you still can't destroy it just because it is not longer of operational value. It has GREAT historical value and there will be a day when holding it secret no longer has value. That day might be 20 years or 50 years or a 100 years from now, but that day will come and we need to release it when that day comes. This is the very nature of having an open government. EDIT: I thank you for the quality of your comment and respect it's obvious validity. In my opinion, it is points and counter-points such as these that make for a respectful discussion. I don't invite people that agree with me, I invite people who engage me in well founded responses and can agree to disagree when the time comes.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed? (12/8/2007 2:42:27 AM)
Intelligence agencies regularly destroy "evidence", that is part of their business. I mean all spy networks, not just ours. It takes subtly and finesse to manage spies, and they should never be given the power that our intelligence agencies have.

farglebargle -> RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed? (12/8/2007 3:29:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Intelligence agencies regularly destroy "evidence", that is part of their business. I mean all spy networks, not just ours. It takes subtly and finesse to manage spies, and they should never be given the power that our intelligence agencies have. Yeah, but in this case, it's reasonable to assume that a court will demand that evidence at some time in the future. It's cool that Hayden said, "We reviewed the tape to determine if Torture happened, and it didn't. So we destroyed the tape..." Well, not to be too much of a dick about it, but can you give me ANY reasons why we should believe Hayden? Boy, it'd sure be useful for him to be able to produce the tapes to support his outlandish claims. But, hey, no tapes, mean that no tapes can be admitted as evidence in the trials of the torturers, doesn't it?

Sanity -> RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed? (12/8/2007 6:27:54 AM)
Mutt, You're just like owner59, there really is no difference. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean that it's okay to begin trying to belittle them, which you did the very first time you responded to a post I had made. It's okay to disagree, it's not a real threat to your manhood if everyone doesn't fall in line to worship every word that you breathe. quote: ORIGINAL: Muttling Sanity, I presented to you a prime example as to why it is so important for our intelligence community to be held responsible for their actions and for them to be restricted from destroying evidence of their actions. You have totally ignored an obvious example of why your postions are greatly flawed and called others ignorant for not agreeing with you. Your defense of your position is non-sensical and my experience is that you can't reason with the non-sensical. I hope you will some day grow up and learn the realities of our world. Mutt

Sanity -> RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed? (12/8/2007 6:32:12 AM)
They're not expected to be real spies, Orion. They're expected to be whipping posts, never actually getting their hands dirty, doing what they need to do to keep us safe... they just have to be in place so that we can call them before Congressional committees to blame them when things go horribly, horribly wrong. For them to do their jobs would be an outrage! quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Intelligence agencies regularly destroy "evidence", that is part of their business. I mean all spy networks, not just ours. It takes subtly and finesse to manage spies, and they should never be given the power that our intelligence agencies have.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed? (12/8/2007 6:56:21 AM)
The handlers of spies are the ones accountable, and they should not be able to use plausable deniability. If they say they didn't know, they should have. Also, torture is used by all groups around the globe. The extent and type of torture is the only difference. Playing certain sounds, loudly and repeatedly, is as much torture as water boarding is. This is why certain people are hired for that kind of job, because the rest of us do not have the stomach to do what it takes to accomplish the task. If torture of any kind cannot be used, then you spell it out clearly, but we need to also then understand that there may be some information, we will be unable to attain.

Raechard -> RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed? (12/8/2007 7:57:37 AM)
The worst event that the CIA has covered up thus far is that Santa Clause was involved in a mid air collision with a military plane giving a rendition of let’s jingle your bells to the detainee occupants. Unfortunately Santa Clause is now dead but they can’t admit they killed him so every so often they fly this specially developed plane from Area 51 which is shaped like a bunch of reindeers pulling a sled. Now getting a plane to fly that is shaped like a bunch of reindeers pulling a sled involves some very tricky electronics but they do what they must to ensure the real message of Christmas is not realised i.e. to prop up the failing economy. I could just be paranoid though...[8\|]

Real0ne -> RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed? (12/8/2007 12:18:32 PM)
i am sure that everyone thinks the upcoming recession is as funny as you do. Good thing you have a government job....

Muttling -> RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed? (12/8/2007 3:56:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf The handlers of spies are the ones accountable, and they should not be able to use plausable deniability. If they say they didn't know, they should have. Also, torture is used by all groups around the globe. The extent and type of torture is the only difference. Playing certain sounds, loudly and repeatedly, is as much torture as water boarding is. This is why certain people are hired for that kind of job, because the rest of us do not have the stomach to do what it takes to accomplish the task. If torture of any kind cannot be used, then you spell it out clearly, but we need to also then understand that there may be some information, we will be unable to attain. This brings up an interesting aspect and it WILL be a problem in the not to distant future. Our enemies will use torture on captured American soldiers just as they have in the past. We will claim it's illegal, etc. and they will say they are perfectly within their rights since the U.S. has declared water boarding is NOT torture. This exact thing happened during the Nuremburg trials at the end of World War II. German Admiral Karl Donitz was charged with several things included "unrestricted submarine warfare" in violation of the Second London Naval Treaty of 1936. In Admiral Donitz defense, U.S. submarine commanders from the Pacific fleet were called to testify about their operations which included "unrestricted submarine warfare" and the total failure to bring them to trial for it. He was found guilty of this charge, but a sentence was not assessed for this charge because the U.S. had breached international law by failing to uphold the same requirements for it's people. In short, this particular "war crime" was turned into a non-crime by the U.S.'s failure to uphold that standard. We are seeing the EXACT same situation with extraordinary rendition, water boarding, and the long term detainment of prisoners without acknowledgement that we are holding them (months or up to a year is an established standard today, but multiple years is a violation of International Law....at least it used to be). Now we will be left with no recourse and no right to even complain when our soldiers are treated this way by other countries. Doing so will simply add to the well established argument of our hypocrisy and further damage our foreign relations abilities. The Bush administration has done GRAVE damage to us and we are only at the very beginning of those ramifications.

farglebargle -> RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed? (12/8/2007 4:30:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity doing what they need to do to keep us safe. Just because the feeble and mentally incompetent NEED to be kept safe, don't insult the rest of us by suggesting that WE are FEEBLE AND INCOMPETENT and need to be kept safe. REAL AMERICANS resent the implication that they need to be protected from danger. REAL AMERICANS are more than capabable of taking care of themselves, their family, friends an neighbors. I don't really care WHY you support this "SECURITY-WELFARE" for those assholes too LAZY to do their duty to their Family, Friends and Neighbors. I say let those who REFUSE to protect themselves, suffer for their own foolishness, and stop wasting my tax dollars on keeping them "Secure".

Sanity -> RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed? (12/8/2007 4:36:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Muttling The Bush administration has done GRAVE damage to us and we are only at the very beginning of those ramifications. What about John Kerry though - or have you forgotten about his war crimes and torturous acts quote: ORIGINAL: John Kerry MR. KERRY (Vietnam Veterans Against the War): There are all kinds of atrocities and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50-caliber machine guns which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare. All of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free-fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals. What about the war crimes of his comrades quote: ORIGINAL: John Kerry "They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country." http://www.archive-news.net/Kerry/JK_timeline.html President Bush hasn't done the harm to this country that the testimony and / or acts of John Kerry & friends has

farglebargle -> RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed? (12/8/2007 4:38:47 PM)
quote: What about John Kerry though - or have you forgotten about his war crimes and torturous acts How many people had John Kerry held, without counsel, charge, or trial? How many prisoners in his custody has he tortured? How many people has he denied the right of Habeas Corpus to? And if you're going to be so strict about Kerry's actions while SERVING THE NATION, then why not hold the US Troops raping and murdering children in Iraq to the same standards. "Crying towels are to the FAR RIGHT of the lobby." Indeed!

Sanity -> RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed? (12/8/2007 4:43:30 PM)
From his now infamous testimony that I quoted, I would have to guess many. If you want exact numbers you will have to ask him though. Why do you ask? quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle How many people had John Kerry held, without counsel, charge, or trial? How many prisoners in his custody has he tortured? How many people has he denied the right of Habeas Corpus to? And if you're going to be so strict about Kerry's actions while SERVING THE NATION, then why not hold the US Troops raping and murdering children in Iraq to the same standards. "Crying towels are to the FAR RIGHT of the lobby." Indeed!

farglebargle -> RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed? (12/8/2007 4:48:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity From his now infamous testimony that I quoted, I would have to guess many. If you want exact numbers you will have to ask him though. Why do you ask? Well, it involves personal integrity, honor, and accountability. It's no surprise that you did not intuitively understand the reason I asked. Here's a hint. The crimes of one person in the past, do not excuse the crimes of another in the present. Pointing to Kerry or Berger or Clinton as an EXCUSE shows the moral and ethical development of a 4 year old. Which, considering your apparent need to "Be Kept Safe", like any other child, isn't a surprise either.

Muttling -> RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed? (12/8/2007 4:48:42 PM)
I am DEFINITELY not a fan of John Kerry and I voted for Bush in the last election. (It killed me to do it, but I sure as heck wasn't going to vote for Kerry.) On the subject of Kerry, he did his share of damage to us but Bush has gone far beyond that as he has the power to make and execute U.S. foreign policy by himself. Kerry (thank god) was never given that opportunity.

mnottertail -> RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed? (12/8/2007 4:53:09 PM)
Ja, I can't begin to count the fuckin' wizards out here............... Ron

Sanity -> RE: What other evidence has the CIA destroyed? (12/8/2007 5:02:56 PM)
Try again, friend, that's not my point. The point I was making was counterpoint to Muttling, who also likes to sink into the mud when he's getting frustrated. He said that "The Bush administration has done GRAVE damage to us..." because he authorized questioning of prisoners under duress, etc., and I was just asking about the damage done by John Kerry, and I gave some specific examples of what I was talking about. I guess John Kerry must be a hero of yours? Is that why you got so mad again, and started the petty name calling? John Kerry is your hero? quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Well, it involves personal integrity, honor, and accountability. It's no surprise that you did not intuitively understand the reason I asked. Here's a hint. The crimes of one person in the past, do not excuse the crimes of another in the present. Pointing to Kerry or Berger or Clinton as an EXCUSE shows the moral and ethical development of a 4 year old. Which, considering your apparent need to "Be Kept Safe", like any other child, isn't a surprise either.

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