BDSM and Feminism (Full Version)

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KittenWithaTwist -> BDSM and Feminism (8/18/2005 1:30:09 AM)

Recently, on a livejournal board regarding feminism, the subject of BDSM came up. A woman had some how stumbled across the Taken in Hand website and, after briefly reading some of the descriptions of heterosexual D/s male-dominated relationships, decided that mD/fs relationships were anti-feminist, unhealthy, and wrong.

Obviously, I disagreed.

When I first started exploring BDSM, I reconciled my feminist beliefs and political ideals with my (at the time, only) submissive viewpoint, deciding that the choice to be submissive in a male-dominated relationship was a choice that came to me through feminism-that is, I had the choice to be who I wished to be, sexually, as a consenting adult.

As I involved myself in the online BDSM world, I found more and more people who had decided that they were anti-feminists because they believed that all women were subservient to all men, or that feminism barred them from being sexually or non sexually submissive to men. I also found, outside of BDSM, that feminists whom I met online similarly believed that one could not be submissive, sexually or non sexually, and be a feminist. Further, they believed that any woman who desired to please a man on that level was...as one group put it..."setting the feminist cause back."

I guess my question here is: How do you reconcile your BDSM with any thoughts you have on women's rights? Also, if you are a female dominant who owns male submissives, do you feel that that has anything to do with possible political/feminist motivations, such as, for instance, putting a man in an assumed "woman's" place?

I hope this makes as much sense as it does in my head. I can't sleep. It's 4:30am.




greenie -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/18/2005 1:44:11 AM)

the feminist cause has been effective i think. we have the right to choose don't we? we don't have to be relegated to the old fashioned ideal of barefoot in the kitchen taking care of our men and children. i choose to accept that that is who i am! i have that right just as much as the women who choose the path of career women or women who choose not to have children or women who choose the military. we have choices now we didn't have at one time.



Veav -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/18/2005 1:51:06 AM)

Tough question to answer... I mean, the phrase "women's rights" has little meaning for me. I don't draw a line - there's just "rights", which covers men and women, caucasian and latin and african and oriental...

So as you can imagine, I don't do a great deal of reconciliation involving BDSM and any sort of partitioned rights. Everyone has the right to be an individual, to exercise their will and live their life. That's why d/s has power, because it's a conscious decision; whether you're male or female, you can choose to submit to another, dominate another, or you can choose not to.

But it's late here too and I'm just a Y-chromosone, so YMMV. }:D



wetsub000 -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/18/2005 2:24:57 AM)

I'm happy to hear I'm not the only one thinking about this issue and you summed it up nicely. I am submissive because I choose to be. Not because I feel it is my place or role as a woman. If a male Dom starts to spout about it being my role as a woman then they get short shift from me. I guess it's also what I found hardest to stomach in the Gorean book I was once asked to read.

Be a happy feminist submissive if that's what you want. I am [:D]



MistressFire70 -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/18/2005 6:26:52 AM)

That YOU choose YOUR role in this lifestyle rather than listening to what others tell you your role should be shows that you are a feminist. To me, there's no place for beliefs of Male or Female Supremacy outside of a hot scene. Of course, I'm assuming by feminist, you mean "women have the right to choose for themselves" rather than "men suck, women rule."

Fire



MsIncognito -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/18/2005 6:43:25 AM)

IMO, feminism is about the right to choose. Limiting my choices to "NOW approved" choices is not much of a choice, IMO. That's just exchanging one set of limiting ideals for another. If feminism is about choice then I am exercising that feminist choice by making a concscious choice to participate in BDSM.



Padriag -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/18/2005 7:01:22 AM)

I'll be blunt... I don't care for feminism, its become a political crock. Before you flame me, read on.

I have no problem with equal opportunity, equal pay for equal work, etc. But I don't view those as just being women's rights or minority rights... I view that as a human right. So call me a humanist if you will.

My problem with feminism (and indeed a lot of other rights movements) is this. First, they have blinders on focusing on only the group they care to represent, not everyone as a whole. We are not a society of seperate groups (well... we shouldn't be anyway, sometimes I wonder), we should be building unity, not splitting off into individual groups. Often these groups take on, as is typical of such groups, an "Us vs Them" mentality and can become quite hostile to anyone not part of their group. The term "feminazi" (which btw I don't really care for... I know what Nazi's were... an as hateful as some feminist can be, I don't see any organizing gas chambers or concentration camps) is used to describe feminist who have taken that "Us vs Them" mentality to a hateful extreme... and they tend to blame men for everything, and see things in terms of a war to be waged rather than bridges to be built.

But there's another problem with feminism I often see, and its exactly the reason we have this thread. As women, you really ought to be concerned with it. The problem is this. Feminism wants women to be free.... so long as its free to be what feminism defines you should be. Contradict the party line and you find that "freedom" quickly evaporates and some of those hateful feminist will just as quickly attack you as the men they blame for all the world's evils. That's not freedom folks, you've merely traded one master for another.

Real freedom is the ability to choose for yourself your own path without society unduly interfering, coercing, opposing or preventing you from doing so. If you want to be a submissive woman, that should be your choice... without anyone making you feel shame or guilt for it. If you want to choose to be dominant, that too ought to be open to you without derision or ridicule. If you just don't have a kinky bone in your body, that ought to be okay too. That's real freedom. Get a taste of that and I suspect you'll end up a humanist like me.



mnottertail -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/18/2005 7:07:14 AM)

I guess as far as feminism or any other ism that is vociforously expounded-- i.e. those dogmas that say this is how it's gotta be or you are a horrid, wicked, fuckwad of a person will not find the escape velocity to overpower the gravity of my void until they can pay my bills..........end of joke.

Ron



MsKyln -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/18/2005 7:47:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

I'll be blunt... I don't care for feminism, its become a political crock. Before you flame me, read on.

I have no problem with equal opportunity, equal pay for equal work, etc. But I don't view those as just being women's rights or minority rights... I view that as a human right. So call me a humanist if you will.

My problem with feminism (and indeed a lot of other rights movements) is this. First, they have blinders on focusing on only the group they care to represent, not everyone as a whole. We are not a society of seperate groups (well... we shouldn't be anyway, sometimes I wonder), we should be building unity, not splitting off into individual groups. Often these groups take on, as is typical of such groups, an "Us vs Them" mentality and can become quite hostile to anyone not part of their group. The term "feminazi" (which btw I don't really care for... I know what Nazi's were... an as hateful as some feminist can be, I don't see any organizing gas chambers or concentration camps) is used to describe feminist who have taken that "Us vs Them" mentality to a hateful extreme... and they tend to blame men for everything, and see things in terms of a war to be waged rather than bridges to be built.

But there's another problem with feminism I often see, and its exactly the reason we have this thread. As women, you really ought to be concerned with it. The problem is this. Feminism wants women to be free.... so long as its free to be what feminism defines you should be. Contradict the party line and you find that "freedom" quickly evaporates and some of those hateful feminist will just as quickly attack you as the men they blame for all the world's evils. That's not freedom folks, you've merely traded one master for another.

Real freedom is the ability to choose for yourself your own path without society unduly interfering, coercing, opposing or preventing you from doing so. If you want to be a submissive woman, that should be your choice... without anyone making you feel shame or guilt for it. If you want to choose to be dominant, that too ought to be open to you without derision or ridicule. If you just don't have a kinky bone in your body, that ought to be okay too. That's real freedom. Get a taste of that and I suspect you'll end up a humanist like me.

quote:

Real freedom is the ability to choose for yourself your own path without society unduly interfering, coercing, opposing or preventing you from doing so. If you want to be a submissive woman, that should be your choice... without anyone making you feel shame or guilt for it. If you want to choose to be dominant, that too ought to be open to you without derision or ridicule. If you just don't have a kinky bone in your body, that ought to be okay too. That's real freedom.


I was just about to grab my soap box when I got to your post Padriag ... thanks for putting key strokes to my thoughts !!
MsKyln



thelight -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/18/2005 7:51:22 AM)

thanks, padraig.



HalloweenWhite -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/18/2005 8:06:36 AM)

I feel -very- strongly that women are equal to men and have or at least -should- have the same rights,rewards credit,gratitude etc. given to men, I say -should- have because I dont think they are treated the same,but thats My personal view.

Anyway,I agree with you-you are submissive because you -choose- to be. in that way I think BDSM supports feminism because the people in the lifestlye totally respect a woman's right to -choose- to be submissive -or- dominant,and we have no less respect or concern for her what-ever she -chooses-.

Sexism says,apart from many other things, that either women shouldnt have choice,dont want it or dont need it.

But -everyone- in the lifestyle respects any choice a woman makes just as much as if a man made that choice. Andso I think BDSM and feminism go hand in hand.



HALLOWEENWHITE.



Padriag -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/18/2005 8:08:12 AM)

Awww... shucks... ya'll gonna make me blush! [;)]

On minor thing I wish I had changed. I used the word humanist... it would have been better if I'd said something like "peoplist". Humanist and humanism already have meanings to them other than what I intended in my post.



onceburned -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/18/2005 8:29:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist
I guess my question here is: How do you reconcile your BDSM with any thoughts you have on women's rights?


As others have mentioned, feminism is all about promoting freedom of choice. It stands against the old tradition of 'biology is destiny' which confined women to Kirche, Küche, und Kinder - in other words, to being the 1950's ideal housewife.

Early 1970s feminism made the mistake of putting down women who chose to be housewives. But if a woman freely choses to sacrifice outside career to be a homemaker, that is her right. It is her choice, and who is to say she is wrong. It is her life. She is the only person who can decide what is right for her.

I think the same thing applys to BDSM. If a woman chooses to be a submissive or a slave - that is fine. It is her choice, it is her life.

I think it is entirely possible to be a feminist and be a submissive or slave or homemaker. Freedom to make a choice is what counts. Anyone who tries to take away that freedom is anti-feminist, IMO.



Faramir -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/18/2005 8:33:52 AM)

To the extent that feminism has meant "safeguarding and advocating for the politcal equality and freedom of women" I'm a feminist. I'm all about political, economic, social and cultural choice, freedom and power of women. I want women at the table - I know our polity needs women at the table to be succesful.

But that is solely political - the very word intimacy implies something between her and I, outside of the exterior political world. Intimately, we choose to be unequal in power and position, but equal in worth and responsibility.



domtimothy46176 -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/18/2005 9:06:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

But there's another problem with feminism I often see, and its exactly the reason we have this thread. As women, you really ought to be concerned with it. The problem is this. Feminism wants women to be free.... so long as its free to be what feminism defines you should be. Contradict the party line and you find that "freedom" quickly evaporates and some of those hateful feminist will just as quickly attack you as the men they blame for all the world's evils. That's not freedom folks, you've merely traded one master for another.

Real freedom is the ability to choose for yourself your own path without society unduly interfering, coercing, opposing or preventing you from doing so. If you want to be a submissive woman, that should be your choice... without anyone making you feel shame or guilt for it. If you want to choose to be dominant, that too ought to be open to you without derision or ridicule. If you just don't have a kinky bone in your body, that ought to be okay too. That's real freedom. Get a taste of that and I suspect you'll end up a humanist like me.


Not only do I find this to be a problem with the modern incarnation of feminism, I would say it is a problem for many advocacy groups promoting equality and/or tolerance. As a rule I avoid organizations that preach that all are equal (or equally valuable) except for those in the opposition. Whether it's the leftists who want equal time for all views except conservative ones, or the religious who preach God's eternal love and forgiveness for everyone except homosexuals, it's still a doctrine of exclusion and marginalization. We call it bullshit when it manifests as "My kink is ok but yours is not" but it's really the same small-mindedness that recurs in issue after issue, religion, politics, gender equality, racism, pick your hot button topic.
Until we reach a point where people are able and willing to harness their passions and deal with issues in constructive ways without resorting to scorched-earth methodology, we will continue to wrestle with variations of the issues that face society today.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.



KittenWithaTwist -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/18/2005 10:18:32 AM)

Some people also use the term "equalist" or "egalitarian."



IronBear -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/18/2005 12:51:15 PM)

quote:

Real freedom is the ability to choose for yourself your own path without society unduly interfering, coercing, opposing or preventing you from doing so.


The bottom line is: "They have a pair of feet and they can walk away if they so desire. That is their right which no honest and sensible Dominant would disagree with. IMO



CitizenCane -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/18/2005 2:17:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

I'll be blunt... I don't care for feminism, its become a political crock. Before you flame me, read on.




Generally speaking you post clear, rational positions, and this is no exception. I would take issue with a couple of points, however. First, there is a place for advocacy groups- minorities and women living under systematic, culturally supported discrimination do need to band together in their own interests and assert their rights- history indicates that those who benefit from oppressive systems rarely yield to change without a bit of pressure. However, it's clear that these groups need to evolve as the situation of their constituents evolves, and often the 'leadership' groups lag behind the reality, and become merely self-serving interest groups themselves.
The other point I'd like to make is that 'equality' is a crock. People are different, and there are groups of people that enjoy pronounced differences with other groups. The issue, properly, is whether we ought to be judged, enabled, constrained or whatever according to the individual realities of ourselves, or according to what we hold in common in with others. In the case of feminism, the promotion of certain kinds of 'equality' has tended to deny other substantive inequalities that exist between most men and most women. To be a just society, we need to be able to acknowledge both the gross statistical trends and the individual variations from them.

Cane



bulletproof -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/18/2005 2:45:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsIncognito

IMO, feminism is about the right to choose. Limiting my choices to "NOW approved" choices is not much of a choice, IMO. That's just exchanging one set of limiting ideals for another. If feminism is about choice then I am exercising that feminist choice by making a concscious choice to participate in BDSM.


I couldn't improve on that explanation whatsoever.

exactly.



Padriag -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/18/2005 3:22:13 PM)

I understand your points Cane, and they are both valid. I'll throw this out for consideration. Why does a minority group of any sort need to band together for protection in a democracy that at least in theory values equal opportunity? You pretty much answered it, those in power don't really value equal opportunity as that might threaten their position. This is part of why I'm also against political parties and career politicians (such groups tend to serve their own interests over those of the people they are supposed to represent). And while I think its feasible within the current cultural and political structure to do away with political parties, doing away with career politicians would require perhaps more than is feasible presently. In short, if we as a people (and I mean the US here, but it could be any nation) came together as a people and stood for fair treatment of everyone, minority advocacy groups would no longer be necessary. To some degree that has happened and its part of the reason many such groups are of questionable value compared to what they once were at the height of the civil rights movement. The more we come together as one people, the less need their is for these special interest groups and the less divisiveness is generated (less Us vs Them). But now we run into a new problem, that these special interest organizations have become self serving machines with an interest in maintaining their existence (and the careers of those at the helm) beyond their real usefulness. Some go so far as to generate hysteria and create "problems" as a justification for their continued existence. This does not advance the cause of human rights, it merely advances the careers of a few at OUR expense.

As to equality, rather than answer that here I'll suggest you read an essay I wrote entitled Are We Equal? You can find it on my web site in the creative writing section under Essays. The link to my site is in my signature below. I think you'll enjoy it. Didn't want to hijack the thread with what is really a second topic.



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