RE: BDSM and Feminism (Full Version)

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GentleLady -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/18/2005 8:13:36 PM)

quote:

Also, if you are a female dominant who owns male submissives, do you feel that that has anything to do with possible political/feminist motivations, such as, for instance, putting a man in an assumed "woman's" place?

For Me it has absolutley nothing to do with feminism. My submissive may be submissive to Me but that is a whole other kettle of fish from being put in an assumed "woman's" place (as you put it). But then, I do not and have never seen a woman's place as having particular boundaries....which is why I would consider Myself an ardent feminist. A woman is capable of doing anything she can even if there are more obstacles in her path then men have. I know a large number of women in what are considered male-dominated careers and they are successful.

I should note that I define feminism (in brief) as the right to be equal and to be treated as an equal and paid an equal wage. I do not consider feminism to be the concept that women are superior to men. They are different and have different overall strengths and capabilities (in general) but they are equal (equal meaning just as good as).

At home, household chores are split according to which one of us is better at that task. We each contribute to the marriage based on where our strengths lie. One of My strengths lies in being capable of making decisions and taking responsibility for those decisions.

Gentle Lady



pinkpleasures -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/19/2005 1:05:03 AM)

quote:

But now we run into a new problem, that these special interest organizations have become self serving machines with an interest in maintaining their existence (and the careers of those at the helm) beyond their real usefulness. Some go so far as to generate hysteria and create "problems" as a justification for their continued existence. This does not advance the cause of human rights, it merely advances the careers of a few at OUR expense.

Padriag


AMEN to that. i have no critcism of "watchdog" groups who monitor films and tv and such for negative references to their constituency. However, we who marched for various causes in the '70's spawned organizations, such as the National Organization of Women, which as Padriag said, lost its relevance to women generally but (in my opinionn) continues to publish and exist primarialy to assure its paid employees have jobs.

There is a rule of thumb in government: to assure job security, work for a department created to respond to a crisis. Once the crisis has passed, the government will not shut down the organization because the collective will of governmental employees and their superiors is to expand and create a larger power base.

pinkpleasures



night101owl -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/19/2005 8:37:36 AM)

I am a feminist, and I find the movement to still be relevant. In the U.S., reproductive rights are still under attack, rape victims are still being blamed, and gender still has a huge impact on the practical choices available to us. On a global scale, women are still beaten, mutilated, and murdered for being women. It's important.

At the same time, I believe that women's sexual choices should be given respect. My ability to analzye what I'm doing and why I'm doing it should not be second-guessed, just because they aren't the choices someone else might make. There's a lot of debate within the feminist movement around this issue.

I think that the confusion in the livejournal post comes from the fact that, for many women, some of the stuff in BDSM is triggering of real abuse and real sexism. In an way, BDSMers are playing the cultural trauma when they indulge in gender-based roles, much the same way they're playing with cultural trauma if they do a nazi scene. Yes, it is possible for consenting adults to go to that space without imposing the real oppression associated with those images. At the same time, they can't expect just anyone who sees it to be cool with it.



CitizenCane -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/19/2005 6:01:23 PM)

Padraig, you might also consider that a danger in even a well-functioning democracy (which ours isn't) is majoritarian tyranny. For instance, if a referendum were held on BDSM in this country, it would likely be banned. The best thing about this country is it's defense of minority rights. Unfortunately, it's simply not possible to sit back and expect the majority and their representatives to protect such rights without activism from those most affected.


Cane



Vancouver_cinful -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/22/2005 12:22:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Veav

Tough question to answer... I mean, the phrase "women's rights" has little meaning for me. I don't draw a line - there's just "rights", which covers men and women, caucasian and latin and african and oriental...



This has always been my stance, too. Whether it's black rights, gay rights, or little-green-men-from-Mars rights...it's all branches on the same tree.

I have no problem telling people it's my damn right to submit to a man if it makes me happy. Screw anyone else's definition of how I should live as long as I obey the laws of my country and of human decency.

[rant] In the same vein, I can't stand being told my lifestyle is immoral when there are people out there killing in the name of their god(s), and they are often the ones doing the stone-throwing, to boot! [/rant]

Cin



Vancouver_cinful -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/22/2005 12:35:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
But there's another problem with feminism I often see, and its exactly the reason we have this thread. As women, you really ought to be concerned with it. The problem is this. Feminism wants women to be free.... so long as its free to be what feminism defines you should be.


This is indeed a problem with splitting off into separate interest groups. You're very right...

Many years ago, I was guite shocked (although now I understand it perfectly) to find that many muslim women are the ones fighting to keep the veils and robes of their country in place. They feel they are living according to their beliefs and desires, and while some of us (even submissives) may find it troubling at times...We actually have to accept that we have no right to make that choice for them.

Sure, you can argue that they aren't freely making that choice...but how free are any of us, anyway? We are products of our laws, our cultures, our beliefs. I don't want anyone coming into my country and trying to enforce their culture on me - so, in the best interest of avoiding being a hypocrite - I have no right to go into their country and change theirs.

Sometimes we mean well, and we mean to help...and sometimes it's just isn't our damn business to do so...And this is exactly how I feel about militant feminists who say I have no right living as a submissive under a man's guidance. They have certianly done some good in our culture but there is such as thing as too much.

(wow, second rant today...this subject riles me up!)
Cin



OsideGirl -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/22/2005 1:48:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressFire70

That YOU choose YOUR role in this lifestyle rather than listening to what others tell you your role should be shows that you are a feminist. To me, there's no place for beliefs of Male or Female Supremacy outside of a hot scene. Of course, I'm assuming by feminist, you mean "women have the right to choose for themselves" rather than "men suck, women rule."

Fire



Lord, I struggled with this when I first came into the lifestyle. I felt that everytime I played or submitted, I set womanhood back 200 years. Eventually I came upon that same premise. I chose to be here, I was not forced to be here because someone thinks it's my place.



WickedKev -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/31/2005 5:33:35 PM)

In my narrow view I couldn't give a toss for feminist rights, masculine rights, gay rights. In BDSM it is about Dominance and submission and those that swing both ways, all are equal within thier own field.




quote:

Well its not going to suck itself....



ProtagonistLily -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (8/31/2005 7:42:42 PM)

quote:

In BDSM it is about Dominance and submission and those that swing both ways, all are equal within thier own field.


Yeah, and we are all just droids hanging out in the dungeons.....

Lily



MistressAkasha -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (9/30/2005 7:58:01 PM)

KittenWIthaTwist,

Nice thoughts. As a female dominant, I have never used the word as putting my male sub in a "woman's place;" needless to say, a woman's place is not below in my mind. However, I am a dominant that loves to enforce empathy training because I think it is important to understand what the other sex goes through, especially if you hold any misconceptions.

As for male dominants.......I have no problems with them in general. It's the male dominants that claim that all women are beneath men that I do not agree/get along with. This is anti-feminist. Concerning a feminist wanting to submit: that is fine in my view. You can want your rights as a woman, and if you want to give up your power in regards to bdsm. that is fine. If we are speaking of 24/7, I would hold a different view on this. I beleive this to be a situation where viewing the bdsm as a lifestyle, and vanilla relationships as a separate way of life is necessary.

All the best,
Akasha



Raphael -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (9/30/2005 10:50:45 PM)

If you delve a bit into feminism you'll find there are two entirely different sorts of things sharing the same word.

Originally feminism was primarily focused on legal equality and acknowledgement as full human beings and citizens. In the western world, at least, that's a fight that was, in very large measure, won long ago.

There's another, later movement that's taken on the name in a quite different context. They adopted marxist class-warfare theory, substituting male and female for capitalist and proletariat, and then went from there. These are the ones that make statements like 'rape is an crime perpetrated by all men against all women,' that write off nearly the entire body of classical literature as patriarchal oppression (because most of the great writers of history, at least the ones whose works were recognised and preserved, were men) and in some cases go so far as to say that heterosexual women are 'sleeping with the enemy' and only lesbians can really be feminists.

The first group would have no problem with you living your life the way you choose, as long as that's really what you want.

The second group will doubtless claim that you effectively have no free will as a result of the evil patriarchal brainwashing you've undergone, that if you did have free will your choice would make you a traitor to your gender, and so on.

There's also a third group of people, that don't go to any great length in researching and analysing and pondering the subject, but just have a general feeling that feminism means being fair to women, and tend to go along with whatever they're told as feminism as long as it isn't too grotesquely offensive on the face. They often pick up ideas from the second group without being committed to such extremity, more or less by default.

If you want my opinion, the first group are right, the second group are a bunch of lunatics. The third group are goodhearted but dangerous.

And my advice is to concentrate on making the best choices you can in your life, in accordance with your own nature, and not waste effort giving a damn what any of them might think of those choices.

>R



pastplayingames -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (10/1/2005 5:07:18 AM)

quote:

How do you reconcile your BDSM with any thoughts you have on women's rights?


It is my 'right' as a woman (more specifically, an obligation to myself) to live in accordance with my nature.

In the business aspect of my life, I am in complete control of 'making it happen' (one aspect: making sure all the pieces of the puzzle allign to make the deal and presenting it in such a way as that there is no reasonable alternative to accepting the deal). It can be quite a rush as most of my clients are powerful men. But I find it incredibly stressful as I also feel to be 'putting on a persona' that is not my essence in order to accomplish these things.

In my personal relationships, however, I seek to relinquish control....live in accordance with my nature. This is where I get to be who I truly am: a self-sufficient, intelligent, strong-willed, motivated being who craves to give of myself in surrender to the one I choose.

I think feminism's original core motivation to liberate women from oppression is honerable. However, just as is the case with religions (IMHO), the original message was distorted. And one definition of 'what is oppression' began to permeate.

For me, having to live my life without the expression of my essence is my definition of oppression. Thus, I am liberated in my surrender.

~Christine



tarnishedhalo777 -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (10/1/2005 7:26:58 AM)

forgive my confusion,I'm new to the sub side of things in bdsm,(not in 'nilla tho)if that makes sense(the submission was not given freely then)...I spent most of my time in the lifestyle as a top/switch but wasn;'t happy...so i am still walking my journey of discovery....
but
isn't the submissive female in all reality powerful?
...After all she sets the limits....



tarnishedhalo777 -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (10/1/2005 7:34:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pastplayingames

It is my 'right' as a woman (more specifically, an obligation to myself) to live in accordance with my nature.

In my personal relationships, however, I seek to relinquish control....live in accordance with my nature. This is where I get to be who I truly am: a self-sufficient, intelligent, strong-willed, motivated being who craves to give of myself in surrender to the one I choose.

For me, having to live my life without the expression of my essence is my definition of oppression. Thus, I am liberated in my surrender.

~Christine



Thank YOu-pastplayinggames!! you have expressed so elegantly,exactly what it is I have been struggling with this past 6 weeks or so.



pastplayingames -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (10/1/2005 7:50:32 AM)

quote:

isn't the submissive female in all reality powerful?
...After all she sets the limits....


tarnishedhalo777,

I would ask you this...
Which is more powerful: Setting limits (self-imposing control on herself and her submission) or surrendering?
...something to think about.

~Christine



pastplayingames -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (10/1/2005 7:59:35 AM)

quote:

Thank YOu-pastplayinggames!! you have expressed so elegantly,exactly what it is I have been struggling with this past 6 weeks or so.


tarnishedhalo777,

It seems we posted to each other at the same time..hehe.

I often have concern that what I try to express is not perceived as I intended, verbally or in written word...a struggle of my own *s*. Thank you for the compliment.

~Christine



ImpGrrl -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (10/1/2005 8:12:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist

I found more and more people who had decided that they were anti-feminists because they believed that all women were subservient to all men


These people, by definition, cannot be feminist. If you believe that *all* women are X, or *all* men are Y, you are taking away the idea of choice that feminism fosters.

I have absolutely no problem with feminism within BDSM (hell, I'm in a d/s relationship on the s side, and I'm a feminist, too!) - but those who believe the way you described above are not feminists, period.

The rest of your post - I agree with you - submission and/or dominance freely chosen within one's interpersonal relationship(s) has no impact on feminism.

H



LordODiscipline -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (10/1/2005 8:21:28 AM)

Feminism was always about the right of a female to choose her direction and what was right for her....

The radical feminism that overtook the movement decided that they were the final arbiter of what was -and- was not "allowable" for females.

Obviously they are as incorrect as anyone stating that another person 'must be'.. 'must do..' or 'must behave...' in a specific way where choice is not up to they to decide.

Much in the same way, females who desired a "Leave it to Beaver' life - family, home and friends) are derided by many of these same people who declare that such a thing are not "normal" and are not "proper" for a "liberated female".

This has been a sincere topic of such debate for many years - and, I am sure shall be for many years to come.

~J



ImpGrrl -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (10/1/2005 8:26:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tarnishedhalo777

isn't the submissive female in all reality powerful?
...After all she sets the limits....


I can't really get with this line of thought, either.

I mean - yes, s-types are powerful. But because they're people, and all people are/can be powerful. *Not* because they set the limits.

In a relationship, *any* relationship, *both/all* partners set and agree to the boundaries/limits of the relationship. D-types have limits too. And Vanilla people. Everyone has limits, and everyone is equally responsible for setting and keeping the limits in their relationship(s).

I hear *way* too much that "the s-type is *really* in charge, because they can safeword/set limits".

And I think that's hogwash.

H



Delvin -> RE: BDSM and Feminism (10/1/2005 8:54:25 AM)

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried. {Sir Winston Churchill}

A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
{Sir Winston Churchill}

Perhaps O/our biggest mistake it to claim we have freedom over other nations and that O/our laws serve each person living in this great nation....."Equally".

Sadly we are all human, with human flaws, emotions and free will. The different groups that spring up for a cause may initially be focused on the problem and serve to better mankind, but in the end, all fall victim to prejudice, greed and ultimately hate. Some may not fall so deeply into the abyss, while others simply make a straight line there, led by politicians or perhaps intended to avoid that path only to take another, same path to the same end result.

This, like many topics serve to help people understand, (Who wish to learn) and foster a sense of awareness around them that not everything is right within the world. Somewhere though, we get bored and loose sight of the initial call for help to make life better for everyone, not just a select few.

For the record, I believe in equal rights.... not just for the select few but for everyone.

D



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