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Debating CastleRealm Idea Part 1 - 12/21/2007 9:59:16 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
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"The clash of the S/M submissives and D/s submissives has become a resounding clamor of late. (The B/D submissives may find themselves in either group, depending on their motivation and activities.) For the benefit of the novices who might happen to be reading this soapbox speech and are lost by all those letters; S/M=Sado/Masochism, D/s=Dominant/submissive and B/D=Bondage/Discipline. It's time to face the simple facts. There IS a difference in the terms and there IS a difference in the motivation of the ones who surrender their personal power in the two groups. I am weary of fending off the macho-masochistic subs who continue to beat on their pierced-nippled chests shouting how much more submissive they are because they have been whipped, branded, poked full of holes, passed around at the local scene party or humiliated to the lowest form of human life. If that's what you like, then more power to you, but it's not for everyone nor does everyone want or need it and it certainly is not a measure of submission."

Exerpt taken from jade's piece on "Submission vs Masochism or Playing the Game with Two sets of Rules". There was no date on it but was probably written sometime in 1997 or thereabouts.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

Post #: 1

RE: Debating CastleRealm Idea Part 1 - 12/21/2007 10:02:17 PM

Phin

Posts: 1802
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Playing the Game with Two sets of Rules".

an here I am thinking that there were no rules... Live the lifestyle as you see fit and be happy. dont worry about what the "experts" have to say

_____________________________

"Isn't wonderful when our bruises show what we hide in the back of our heads?"Fayetteville band, Nephilym

"He is my angel, my devil, my naughty boy, but above anything else my Master"My girl sin

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 2

RE: Debating CastleRealm Idea Part 1 - 12/21/2007 10:05:41 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

Bita, could you possibly be unaware of the fact that the castle in question has had its gates closed for quite some while now?

Dreadful girl

.

_____________________________

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 3

RE: Debating CastleRealm Idea Part 1 - 12/21/2007 10:07:32 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

Oh no, I'm aware of it. This thread was started to debate the ideas which were contained within the CastleRealm mindset and any exerpts I post will be given full credit to the original authors.

:)

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 4

RE: Debating CastleRealm Idea Part 1 - 12/21/2007 10:09:50 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

OMG celeste... this was just the type of stuff I read recently that made me cringe! It should foster some good debate

I wondered, what motivations does she ascribe to me as a masochist? (looks over body for piercings... ooops, none there!)

And I have never seen a masochist held up as some sort of subly ideal... if anything we are called "bottoms" "sams" and questioned about our motivations... as though one cannot be twuly submissive and masochistic... one cannot serve two masters, their own pleasure and that of their dominant sort.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 5

RE: Debating CastleRealm Idea Part 1 - 12/21/2007 10:13:21 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

I'm also fond of the pseudo-academic classification (D/s and S/m and what have you submissives). Castle Realm was famous for its wide-oh labelling , wasn't it?

I wish the site was still up, so that we could refer to it. Celeste, this begs the question: where did you get your material from?!

_____________________________

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 6

RE: Debating CastleRealm Idea Part 1 - 12/21/2007 10:18:14 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
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This particular piece is on the angelfire network. I'll post a hyperlink if anyone wants to read the entire piece. Just let me know. For now, it was suggested we debate exerpts which shouldn't violate any copy laws, so I think we're good here.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 7

RE: Debating CastleRealm Idea Part 1 - 12/21/2007 10:35:48 PM

ownedgirlie

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Joined: 2/5/2006
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Here on this site, we are able to have discussions about such ideas - debates, arguments, agreements, what have you. We can learn from each other (or not) by the concept of idea sharing (what a concept!)

This excerpt from CR is one post by one person - one idea shared. An island in the middle of a sea of more ideas than we can fathom. Before I found CollarMe/CollarChat, I had not come upon any BDSM/Ms/Ds discussion forum in which such a sharing of ideas could occur. Individuals put up their own sites which professed their views on this way of living. Castle Realm gained popularity and grew into what many here feel is a watered down, romanticized "BDSM Lite" site. It served its purpose.

Thank you, Celeste, for bringing up CaslteRealm'isms to discuss. Rather than threads criticizing CR as a whole, we can debate specific concepts, one at a time, which came from the site. Awesome idea :)

Having said that, looking at what was posted in the OP, it seems the "subblier than thou" debate has been going on since the very first known submissive, eh?

As Juliaoceania pointed out, there is a blatant stereotype (and not a friendly one) in the post, about masochists. However, she is right about the fact that masochism is not for everyone, and not everyone wants or needs it. I am submissive and hate pain, after all. One can be submissive and masochistic at the same time...or submissive and not masochistic at all. I think that's the overall point she was trying to make, although she could have done so without the obvious negative attitude about masochists.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 8

RE: Debating CastleRealm Idea Part 1 - 12/21/2007 10:38:15 PM

BitaTruble

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From: Texas
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Okay, my main problem with this exerpt (and actually it's the smaller of the two major issues I have with the piece as a whole) is that for some unknown reason, the author chose to lump bondage and discipline together without apparent reason. Why not put the discipline with the D/s? Or even the S/m? It seems to make much more sense. I mean, someone may love to get tied up and want nothing at all to do with discipline, for either something like self-discipline or as a tool for punishment. It just makes no sense. The letters BDSM, to me, were always stand alone in nature as in Bondage, Discipline, Sadism and Masochism. Not Bondage/Discipline and Sadism/Masochism. Now, I do believe that sadism and masochism go together fairly well, so wouldn't really take as much issue with a slash between those two rather than a comma, but bondage and discipline are so vastly different! As far as I know, CastleRealm was the first to put the B and the D together as if they were a 'unit' that couldn't stand alone. Once it was a unit, it was as if they couldn't be pried apart with a crowbar.

This exerpt does nothing to bring 'factions' together. In fact, in my opinion, it widens the gap and in a rather disparaging way. I've known my fair share of masochists and I don't know of any straight up masochists who beats on their pierced chests and proclaim their level of high holy submission to the world. In fact, most of the masochists with whom I'm personally acquainted, tend to take the opposite approach. They're masochists, they love being masochists and if you call them a submissive they might take a whip to your ass to see if you're a masochist, too! At least, not off-line. And of course, jade wrote of her own 2000 mile separation (LRD) from Colm so I'm wondering how much experience she could have had in the real world S/m arena to make so many erroneous assumptions about it? If you were a newbie coming in to read this, which group would appeal more to you? The macho-masochist who pounds their pierced nippled chests, gets passed around at the local groups, gets whipped, branded and poked full of holes and is humiliated like they are the lowest lifeform on the planet .. or, would you pray that you could either get out fast before you were damaged beyond all reason or find some nice, safe corner to hide in until your Knight in Shining armor came to rescue you, take care of you, nurture and guide you and bring all your Cinderella fantasies to life?

I have no problem with Knights in Shiny armor if that's what floats your boat, but how about a bit of balance for the other side, by presenting some facts instead of horror stories about masochism and masochists?

Okay, that's my first beef. I have more. ::grins::

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 9

RE: Debating CastleRealm Idea Part 1 - 12/21/2007 11:01:24 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

Hiya Celeste,

I think the B/D was lumped in more because of the 'B' aspect; it implied that the desire to be tied up before receiving correction suggested that there were SAMMY behavior involved. This may or may not be the case.

I think a large part of why jade made the assertions she did was because her essays were being established in a time where the BDSM community was just starting to gel together online with a (more) singular voice that anyone from Montana to Rhode Island to South Carolina could identify with; not just the elite from San Francisco, New York, and Chicago. In order to understand ones self, one must identify who they are. Looking at similarities and differences in others requires assigning vocabulary and value to those traits; her desire to serve clearly drew from a ideal she held of submission without her owner needing to 'beat' it out of her. In observing a 'D/s' relationship similar to a wife-beating redneck, I think she was railing against those who used 'consent' (as the battered-woman syndrome victim suffers) vice a desire to illustrate that she was better than anyone else (though I agree; I do get a sense of self-importance from her personally, in general.)

One can point to Freud and point out the hundreds of mistakes and foolish things he said; it's the handful of things he said and did right that makes him notable. I had as strong of a distaste for Castrealm as anyone else, but I won't discount it's historical value. When held in context, I believe it has no little amount of value; even one day that value is purely for how not to approach values and D/s traits.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 10

RE: Debating CastleRealm Idea Part 1 - 12/21/2007 11:01:48 PM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

"The clash of the S/M submissives and D/s submissives has become a resounding clamor of late. (The B/D submissives may find themselves in either group, depending on their motivation and activities.) For the benefit of the novices who might happen to be reading this soapbox speech and are lost by all those letters; S/M=Sado/Masochism, D/s=Dominant/submissive and B/D=Bondage/Discipline. It's time to face the simple facts. There IS a difference in the terms and there IS a difference in the motivation of the ones who surrender their personal power in the two groups. I am weary of fending off the macho-masochistic subs who continue to beat on their pierced-nippled chests shouting how much more submissive they are because they have been whipped, branded, poked full of holes, passed around at the local scene party or humiliated to the lowest form of human life. If that's what you like, then more power to you, but it's not for everyone nor does everyone want or need it and it certainly is not a measure of submission."

Exerpt taken from jade's piece on "Submission vs Masochism or Playing the Game with Two sets of Rules". There was no date on it but was probably written sometime in 1997 or thereabouts.

For me it just seems overall like a strange statement based off of assumptions of what a BDSM party or social gathering would be like because I can't say I've ever seen someone act like that.

Either way in terms of the substance of it, I always find it weird to use modifyers in front of the term submission. To me, submission is submission... no need to add qualifiers or modifiers (like SM, BD, or DS). And she seems to be assuming that people strictly into sadomasochism, bondage, or discipline are interested in "surrendering their personal power." While I've found that there care a lot of activities, fetishes, and interests that fall under SM and BD that have absolutely nothing to do with power, but rather with sensations, spirituality, and a whole other host of motivations.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 11

RE: Debating CastleRealm Idea Part 1 - 12/21/2007 11:42:59 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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I think it's a slightly hyperbolic interpretation of what happens in most local scenes- the loud hot extreme players get the "oooh ahhh you're SO hard and cool" label and attention while the quiet boring going about their lives types get labeled weekend warriors (as an insult) or light players.

I've had it happen quite a few times since moving to Austin where people see me both at parties and then at a nilla/social environment and comment on how they didn't think we were really into much because we didn't break out the wand or the needles, but upon seeing how we ARE together get a pretty hot charge.

I think just like a lot of "extreme" slaves get tired of being minimized or told they are abused, perhaps jade got a little tired of being minimalized because she didn't do the flashy or "cool" play all the time.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

Post #: 12

RE: Debating CastleRealm Idea Part 1 - 12/21/2007 11:55:36 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

I’ve said this before’; I originally got into this to explore my masochism and found the joys of submission along the way. The OP seems to see it as an either/or view and presents it in an antagonistic framework. I don’t find it to be conducive for developing an understanding between differing dynamics and it reads as more than a bit defensive.
Submission is the greater challenge for me and because it is more of a struggle it is what has created the most self-insight and growth.
Pain and humiliation are the gravy for me. It could be argued that masochism is a form of submission because one ‘submits’ to the pain. However, I have wondered if it has the potential to detract from rather than enhance the meat of a D/s relationship; particularly when I read comments from dominants that they don’t like being ‘a life support system for a flogger.’
I believe it all (the B, the D, the S and the M) can flow together quite nicely. The beauty of the ‘lifestyle’ is that each individual, couple or group can incorporate it all or pick and choose any number or combination of letters that works for them.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 13

RE: Debating CastleRealm Idea Part 1 - 12/21/2007 11:59:33 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I think just like a lot of "extreme" slaves get tired of being minimized or told they are abused, perhaps jade got a little tired of being minimalized because she didn't do the flashy or "cool" play all the time.

That's an interesting perspective. So often there are many things going on behind the scenes of whomever is stating something, that we do not see their words in full context.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 14

RE: Debating CastleRealm Idea Part 1 - 12/22/2007 12:34:41 AM

awmslave

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Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline

quote:

The clash of the S/M submissives and D/s submissives

I never heared about the "clash" before. There are different desires. Why should we care or do we need to do something about it? Re-education boot camps perhaps?

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 15

RE: Debating CastleRealm Idea Part 1 - 12/22/2007 3:52:42 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

My persepctive is that it was a rant, plain and simple. Jade probably became as pissed off at the seemingly (and yes it does happen even now) 'i'm cooler' attitudes of masochists, just as masochists get pissed off at being seen as 'only pain bottoms'. Yes it is full of stereotypes and not flattering ones - but lots of people have their view of what an orientation is. And everyone is entitled to rant.

My one complaint is that she included B/D - to me - Masochists, bottoms, submissives, switches, tops, dominants and sadists are what you are they are descriptive words that try to define a person - B/D is something you do (submission and domination do also come into the 'what you do' but not in the context of this particular piece of writing).

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: Debating CastleRealm Idea Part 1 - 12/22/2007 4:02:29 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: awmslave

quote:

The clash of the S/M submissives and D/s submissives

I never heared about the "clash" before. There are different desires. Why should we care or do we need to do something about it? Re-education boot camps perhaps?

The 'clash' happens an awful lot. I love going to munches and parties and watching demos or scenes - however Darcy and I do not play or scene in front of others. And there is an awful lot of pressure to do so - but primarily Darcy and I are a Ds relationship. And there are many times that I have heard the discussion between Ds couples or units where they feel left out and excluded because they won't 'share their wares' in a public setting. Now to me, sitting at Darcys feet, holding his plate whilst he eats, sharing food from his mouth - is just as important as taking 10 blows from cane in an open setting. I'll take a beating with the best of them, but not for anyone elses enjoyment only Darcy's. But the times I have been pushed to participate is really overwhelming (I am strong enough to refuse, and Darcy will not be told what he should do so is all good) - and I can see why people feel the way they do at events and why they end up not going because they are 'only Ds'.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to awmslave)

Post #: 17

RE: Debating CastleRealm Idea Part 1 - 12/22/2007 4:08:52 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

Being a nonmasochist sub with a nonsadist dom, I have to agree with the idea in the bit you posted. There was that post the other day about how you can't be a sub if you don't submit to uncomfortable, painful things. There's that 7 or 9 levels of submission bit I've had people throw up at me before, where the twue submissive is one who submits to a twue sadist.

Hell, I've gotten enough email saying they'll teach me to be a masochist and only then will I be a twue submissive. I don't have any interest in pain. I'm in this, bottom speaking, for sex and bondage. I'm 53 and can see approaching a time when neither of us are able to do much in the way of either.

And you know what? Even if I'm not getting tied into the shape of a pretzel, even if we're past hanging from chandeliers while having hot monkey sex, he's still going to be the leader.

To me D/s is separate from wiitwd.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 18

RE: Debating CastleRealm Idea Part 1 - 12/22/2007 4:40:44 AM

LittleWench

Posts: 265
Joined: 11/27/2007
Status: offline

Is humiliation part of the masochistic mind set? It seems to me that the personality she is griping about is the holier than thou no limits s-type. I am sublier than you because I let my D do whatever he wants. If you have limits then you are just playing. I don't know, I suppose being masochistic helps with the pain assimilation, but the humiliation, passing around, unless you categorize that as psychological pain then it takes them out of the realm of just masochist.

I think bondage and discipline naturally go hand in hand, bondage is physical discipline, binding the body to a strict form, limiting it's abilities and movements. I am thinking discipline as in the eastern ideals of training and restraint, a branch of knowledge or teaching, not the punishment type discipline.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 19

RE: Debating CastleRealm Idea Part 1 - 12/22/2007 5:39:35 AM

julietsierra

Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

I’ve said this before’; I originally got into this to explore my masochism and found the joys of submission along the way. The OP seems to see it as an either/or view and presents it in an antagonistic framework. I don’t find it to be conducive for developing an understanding between differing dynamics and it reads as more than a bit defensive.
Submission is the greater challenge for me and because it is more of a struggle it is what has created the most self-insight and growth.
Pain and humiliation are the gravy for me. It could be argued that masochism is a form of submission because one ‘submits’ to the pain. However, I have wondered if it has the potential to detract from rather than enhance the meat of a D/s relationship; particularly when I read comments from dominants that they don’t like being ‘a life support system for a flogger.’
I believe it all (the B, the D, the S and the M) can flow together quite nicely. The beauty of the ‘lifestyle’ is that each individual, couple or group can incorporate it all or pick and choose any number or combination of letters that works for them.

LOL... And I got into this to explore my submission and discovered the masochistic me along the way. Submission was what I wanted. What I was amazed at was how the masochism enhanced that and allowed me the opportunity to delve even deeper into my submission than I ever thought possible. At first I exclaimed, "I am not a masochist!!" with as many exclamation points as I could muster up, and with the same sense of denigration that the author of the original excerpt put forth. Now, (ok, it didn't really take all that long), I see one enhancing the other and vice versa. In fact, my hue and cry now is that for me, submission without the masochism would be too much like subjugation and beatings without the opportunity to submit in other areas (and for that submission to be valued) would be too much like abuse.Yes, I love it all.

Oh yea... and just because I love the feeling of being tied up when beaten in no way infers that I am SAMMY whatsoever. Part of the reason is because I haven't yet mastered the art of staying still no matter what. I keep trying, but it seems my body can leap tall buildings with a single bound if I'm hit hard enough and nothing's keeping me in that one spot. My mind is still in one place and my body is across the room. On the other hand, time me down and everything just simply slows down and I can sink farther and farther into the experience. So, used in that fashion, I understand the B/D relationship.

I'm still waiting/wondering what Bondage straight up is like.

So, anyway, to relate this back to the original excerpt, when I reread that today, I too got the impression that it was one person's kind of rant against those who might have said or implied that she was somehow "less than" for her own style of proclivities. I understand that very well. I've had the same feelings about those who put down/diminish/seem to denigrate those who practice responsible emotional sadism/masochism. The difference however is that while my rants have been posted on these forums, they haven't been placed in a forum that used to exist for the express intention of teaching people new to bdsm.

To me, there's quite a difference between expressing exasperation and writing something designed to be an informative learning tool. You see, when I was newer (meaning masochism was a part of my life and I was coming to terms with it), I actually read that exerpt and spent a lot of time being ashamed of myself simply because I liked SM. And on top of that, because I WAS so new, I was scared that her description was what I would become. As I grew, came to terms with my masochism and realized that it didn't mean I was going to be the pass around pack, or "humiliated to the lowest form of life," I came to resent the wasted and now laughable hours I'd spent worrying that her description would somehow become me.

And THAT'S the biggest issue I have with Castle Realm. While the site was informative on a certain level, it also did a WHOLE lot to cause me a LOT of angst that I surely didn't need.

juliet

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 20

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