The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd???

The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (Full Version)

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BlkTallFullfig -> The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/17/2006 2:16:42 AM)
I saw TexasMaam's reply to a thread, identified with it on some levels, so wanted to have this discussion here for opinions/thoughts.http://www.collarchat.com/m_242910/tm.htm I've been married, am now happily divorced, so don't have any especial need for a state sanctioned contractual relationship with a man, but I enjoy intimacy, commitment, and I'm monogamously wired, so I seek the same. I've encountered a phenomenon only apparent since my declaring self dominant/sexually open to exploration... Since beginning my exploration/adventure into this lifestyle, I'm finding a large number of men who separate the women they love from the women they phuck (hundreds of men approaching me, some married/attached, some not, wanting to submit to me in private, but not seeking a relationship on the up and up; or a man having awesome chemistry/connection with me while cheating on/staying with a partner with whom he has a broken/unsatisfactory relationship), making me think quote: The Madonna/Whore Complex For some men, love and sex don't mix. For them, love is reserved for 'good' women, and sex is reserved for 'bad' women. In cases of the Madonna/Whore Complex (or Syndrome), a husband's relationship with his wife may be based upon the unmet intimacy needs he had as an infant. He may unconsciously seek out a woman who reminds him of his mother so that those needs can finally be met. When these men marry, they will marry a 'good' woman, a virginal woman. They will love her, they will protect her, they will treasure her. http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/sexualproblems/a/madonna.htm I was wondering how common this is encountered within WIITWD, and was hoping people would respond with their experiences from what they've lived/experienced. Women, have you encountered it, and how have you coped? Men do you live two lives, one with the woman you love/reproduce with, and the other with women whom you find sexually exciting? I hope this doesn't piss off some men, but keep in mind I'm a heterosexual woman, so my only experiences have been with men. M (editted to remove unmentionables previously mentioned, lol)

Jasmyn -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/17/2006 2:40:58 AM)
I think some men do have the madonna/whore complex but I wouldn't necessarily agree it is indicative of men seeking a subservient experience. But others may differ...look forward to everyones contributions.

sweetpettjenny -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/17/2006 3:28:15 AM)
I was collared to a man who is exactly like that.... although he lied even about being married . WOW i never thought of this before...interesting. quote: ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig I saw TexasMaam's reply to a thread, identified with it on some levels, so wanted to have this discussion here for opinions/thoughts.http://www.collarchat.com/m_242910/tm.htm I've been married, am now happily divorced, so don't have any especial need for a state sanctioned contractual relationship with a man, but I enjoy intimacy, commitment, and I'm monogamously wired, so I seek the same. I've encountered a phenomenon only apparent since my declaring self dominant/sexually open to exploration... Since beginning my exploration/adventure into this lifestyle, I'm finding a large number of men who separate the women they love from the women they phuck (hundreds of men approaching me, some married/attached, some not, wanting to submit to me in private, but not seeking a relationship on the up and up; or a man having awesome chemistry/connection with me while cheating on/staying with a partner with whom he has a broken/unsatisfactory relationship), making me think quote: The Madonna/Whore Complex For some men, love and sex don't mix. For them, love is reserved for 'good' women, and sex is reserved for 'bad' women. In cases of the Madonna/Whore Complex (or Syndrome), a husband's relationship with his wife may be based upon the unmet intimacy needs he had as an infant. He may unconsciously seek out a woman who reminds him of his mother so that those needs can finally be met. When these men marry, they will marry a 'good' woman, a virginal woman. They will love her, they will protect her, they will treasure her. http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/sexualproblems/a/madonna.htm I was wondering how common this is encountered within WIITWD, and was hoping people would respond with their experiences from what they've lived/experienced. Women, have you encountered it, and how have you coped? Men do you live two lives, one with the woman you love/reproduce with, and the other with women whom you find sexually exciting? I hope this doesn't piss off some men, but keep in mind I'm a heterosexual woman, so my only experiences have been with men. M (editted to remove unmentionables previously mentioned, lol)

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/17/2006 5:59:57 AM)
Far far FAR too common. You can't read a dozen posts without tripping over some dom saying they want a "lady in public and a slut in bed." Grrr. I'm a lot more complex than just that. I can be a lady and a whore and a slut and many other things ALL THE TIME. I won't box myself up into your accepted archaic lines just to give you the toy of your dreams.

MistressAlexaS -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/17/2006 6:13:11 AM)
This is VERY common, particulary in a man who wishes to submit to a woman but would never dare to do so with his wife. The reasoning some have told me is that they believe their wives would see them as less than a man or unsexy, or their desires would be viewed as perverted. I think that last one might have alot to do with it, they don't want their spouses to know of their secret desires as they maybe viewed in a negative light. To be perfectly honest I think alot of wives really wish their husbands would get kinky and add some spice to bedroom because not all women are willing to open up and admit what they want. Communication, communication...it is key. ~Alexa

thetammyjo -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/17/2006 6:29:06 AM)
I've encountered the idea the because I'm kinky and dominant (though from talking to some female submissives they seem to have similar experiences) that must me that I'll have sex or scene with anyone. Is this part of the "whore" idea, that unlike the "madonna" being sexually sure of yourself or aware of what you want and female = being "easy"? It also reminds me of some of the discussion on the "Ask a Mistress" board that when rejected, even politelym, some people respond by saying "then you aren't a real femdom".

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/17/2006 10:31:41 AM)
quote: Sweetpettjenny I was collared to a man who is exactly like that.... although he lied even about being married . WOW i never thought of this before...interesting. I'm glad you had the sense and dignity to hightail it out of there, because no master is one if he cannot at least be honest with himself, you or his wife, and cannot take steps to sort out the issues blocking his happiness in his own mind. quote: Jasmyn I think some men do have the madonna/whore complex but I wouldn't necessarily agree it is indicative of men seeking a subservient experience. I only spoke of my experience, but agree it's probably not a submissive male thing alone. quote: LuckyAlbatross I'm a lot more complex than just that Thanks LA; I would imagine most women are more complex that that. quote: I think alot of wives really wish their husbands would get kinky and add some spice to bedroom because not all women are willing to open up and admit what they want. Communication, communication...it is key. ~Alexa I agree MistressAlexaS that the wives should open up and admit what they want, but are they as culpable if they aren't stepping outside of the relationship to get needs met before talking to their husbands? I wonder how many marriages could have been saved if the men were to decide to be honest with themselves and their wives rather than subdividing their loves/lusts into something that doesn't work (with all the deception as a basis for the new relationship). quote: thetammyjo I've encountered the idea the because I'm kinky and dominant (though from talking to some female submissives they seem to have similar experiences) that must me that I'll have sex or scene with anyone. Is this part of the "whore" idea, that unlike the "madonna" being sexually sure of yourself or aware of what you want and female = being "easy"? Do you get insulted? How do you deal when folks approach you with this? I do get frustrated with it sometimes, and so am trying to better understand and learn something new. Thanks everyone for your responses. Looks around wondering where the men are M

truesub4u -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/17/2006 11:48:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross Far far FAR too common. You can't read a dozen posts without tripping over some dom saying they want a "lady in public and a slut in bed." Grrr. I'm a lot more complex than just that. I can be a lady and a whore and a slut and many other things ALL THE TIME. I won't box myself up into your accepted archaic lines just to give you the toy of your dreams. LA best response I've seen so far. And one I totally agree with. Not about to box myself for no one as well.

caitlyn -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/17/2006 12:18:17 PM)
This is my favorite topic. [;)] I can't tell you how many guys I have dated, that wanted me to act and dress like a little hottie sex kitten, and then they get mad at ME if other guys look. I mean, hello ... maybe if I wasn't fucking half-naked, guys wouldn't look. Or, you date guys that say they want someone they can have an intelligent conversation with, but if you discuss any topics worth discussing, and have any point of view worth expressing, ... they become threatened. So ... all you have to do to get along with men, is be totally hot when they look at you, or when their friends give them the wink of envy ... but be totally not hot if anyone else looks. I'm working on a GPS system with a detector installed in my head. And you have to be able to carry on a stimulating, interresting conversation, without ever actually saying anything stimulating, or interresting. GPS won't help there. [;)] Now, all that said, I really don't blame men at all for being this way. I can't blame them, because I'm even worse when it comes to knowing what I really want. All I really know, is that as soon as I get it, I probably won't want it anymore. Maybe that's why I have become so cynical towards relationships. It's easier just being a serial girlfriend.[;)]

Sensualips -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/17/2006 12:34:49 PM)
quote: It's easier just being a serial girlfriend. Hmm, a new kink I am unfamiliar with. Frosted flakes or shredded wheat?

amayos -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/17/2006 12:35:52 PM)
Indeed, there are many men who aspire for the "whore in the bedroom & lady in public", though I should note there is an equally considerable inversion of this tendency in the woman, too. In general, it's a human problem made up mostly of double standards. Many men and women view life in our popular social structure as a series of trappings through which they must maneuver to enjoy a desire or behavior others would not accept openly. Marriage, community obligations, career commitments, religious lifestyle, or familial expectations make up many of these trappings. Self-actualization helps one understand who they are and what they want from others.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/17/2006 12:37:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: amayos I should note there is an equally considerable inversion of this tendency in the woman, too. Yes and I double Grr at that.

seaturtle50 -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/17/2006 1:42:31 PM)
in all fairness to my gender ... you can't really blame them ... they have "guy brains" [:)] seaturtle

thetammyjo -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/17/2006 1:55:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig quote: thetammyjo I've encountered the idea the because I'm kinky and dominant (though from talking to some female submissives they seem to have similar experiences) that must me that I'll have sex or scene with anyone. Is this part of the "whore" idea, that unlike the "madonna" being sexually sure of yourself or aware of what you want and female = being "easy"? Do you get insulted? How do you deal when folks approach you with this? I do get frustrated with it sometimes, and so am trying to better understand and learn something new. Thanks everyone for your responses. Looks around wondering where the men are M Yes, I personally do find it insulting because it treats me as a non-person or a non-individual. That's also true for folks that assume if you are kinky and female you must be submissive or a bottom. And anyone who treats me either way gets a look and then ignored.

cloudboy -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/17/2006 4:35:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig I'm monogamously wired Most men aren't. FYI: It is possible to love more than one person, and the second person doesn't have to be "the sex slut" either. Also, you don't get together to shop for garbage cans or clean the apartment with the second person, and that's the true benefit to being second. Being second is all about connection and intimacy. O, the horror of it! Why would anyone want that?

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/17/2006 4:42:01 PM)
quote: Indeed, there are many men who aspire for the "whore in the bedroom & lady in public", though I should note there is an equally considerable inversion of this tendency in the woman, too ..And in LuckyAlbatross's words quote: Yes and I double Grr at that That is maddening. quote: In general, it's a human problem made up mostly of double standards. Many men and women view life in our popular social structure as a series of trappings through which they must maneuver to enjoy a desire or behavior others would not accept openly. Marriage, community obligations, career commitments, religious lifestyle, or familial expectations make up many of these trappings. Self-actualization helps one understand who they are and what they want from others. Thanks for the thoughtful/great response Amayos. It's true that many of us have to manneuver our way within our communities, but a large number of the trappings are choices that we make, and in making them we should be responsible to live and respect them as such. I cannot respect anyone who says I have to lie to my boyfriend/girlfriend/wife about my sexuality. I understand that there are things we need, but a commitment based on lies hardly comes under the things one needs to do in order to survive, as is ones sexual proclivities... Personally if doing this could not be done within the boundaries that I live my life with my family, than I probably wouldn't participate in it, and I don't fear remaining single for that reason. quote: Self-actualization helps one understand who they are and what they want from others. Great concept! [:)] M

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/17/2006 5:03:04 PM)
quote: I can't tell you how many guys I have dated, that wanted me to act and dress like a little hottie sex kitten, and then they get mad at ME if other guys look. I mean, hello ... maybe if I wasn't fucking half-naked, guys wouldn't look. Or, you date guys that say they want someone they can have an intelligent conversation with, but if you discuss any topics worth discussing, and have any point of view worth expressing, ... they become threatened. So ... all you have to do to get along with men, is be totally hot when they look at you, or when their friends give them the wink of envy ... Great response caitlyn. It's my favorite subject too, because I believe it's at the core of a lot of dissatisfaction in relationships or within wiitwd meets/interaction. quote: in all fairness to my gender ... you can't really blame them ... they have "guy brains" seaturtle LOL, a man not afraid to be honest and take the first step toward accepting a problem. [:D] quote: cloudboy Being second is all about connection and intimacy. O, the horror of it! Why would anyone want that? I will NEVER accept second place, unless I come to wrap my brain around the poly idea, where I would have many lovers anyway, and would possibly permit one of my men involvement with others while I'm bored with him. Intimacy and connection for me involve honesty, trust; I have never trusted, nor would knowingly become intimately involved with someone who lies and cheats to his wife/girlfriend. M

amayos -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/17/2006 5:06:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig ...but a large number of the trappings are choices that we make, and in making them we should be responsible to live and respect them as such... ...I understand that there are things we need, but a commitment based on lies hardly comes under the things one needs to do in order to survive, as is ones sexual proclivities... Quite true. quote: Self-actualization helps one understand who they are and what they want from others. Great concept! [:)] M Thank you. I've always found it strange how support for this concept is vacant in our educational institutions (barring college-level philosophy and humanism courses).

amayos -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/17/2006 6:41:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: amayos I should note there is an equally considerable inversion of this tendency in the woman, too. Yes and I double Grr at that. Agreed on the double grr.

cloudboy -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/17/2006 9:25:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig I will NEVER accept second place, unless I come to wrap my brain around the poly idea, where I would have many lovers anyway, and would possibly permit one of my men involvement with others while I'm bored with him. Intimacy and connection for me involve honesty, trust; I have never trusted, nor would knowingly become intimately involved with someone who lies and cheats to his wife/girlfriend. Nothing I said included anyone who "who lies and cheats to his wife/girlfriend." I don't understand, either, how having 5-6 lovers on a more superficial level, beats having two (2) on a deeper one. It strikes me as crazy leap of logic for a professed monogamist. Hmm, and I dare say this sentence makes you quite the catch indeed, "the poly idea, where I would have many lovers anyway, and would possibly permit one of my men involvement with others while I'm bored with him."

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