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RE: shock collars - 1/29/2006 5:54:33 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lonewolfe
Curious, anyone here ever been on the receiving end of a tens unit? How about cattle prod? Now that can't be the same prod as used on cows.

yeh a tens unit you can barely feel until you turn it up quite hi. its supposed purpose is to relax the muscles by essentially working them. ie the electricity cause the muscles to supposedly contract and expand at 60 cycles per second etc.

as for a cattle prod i have only witnessed one being used where she touched the chains the gurl was wearing and not the actually the gurls skin. the gurl had on like a slave thingie with draping chains, and that sent her for a loop.

Even a hard core maso is fearful of a cattle prod because the arc snaps and unlike the tens that has constant conduction the prod does not and the jumping of the arc really hurts, not to mention will make you numb. maybe someone else can chime in but i think they cause burns on the skin as well. i never had one used on my but i was told this by a person who did.

(in reply to lonewolfe)

Post #: 21

RE: shock collars - 1/29/2006 7:05:02 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Are you saying that your arrhythmia (two r's) was caused by playing with electrical toys? All kinds of people develop arrhythmia.

Like most "safety" disputes, this one will never be resolved. Some people think playing with electrical toys is too dangerous. Others are willing to take the risk. It's a perfect example of what's wrong with the "safe, sane, consensual" mantra.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Would you like to see my medical records that document the arythmia and missed beats?

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 22

RE: shock collars - 1/29/2006 7:40:14 PM

theRose4U

Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: lonewolfe
Curious, anyone here ever been on the receiving end of a tens unit? How about cattle prod? Now that can't be the same prod as used on cows.

yeh a tens unit you can barely feel until you turn it up quite hi. its supposed purpose is to relax the muscles by essentially working them. ie the electricity cause the muscles to supposedly contract and expand at 60 cycles per second etc.

as for a cattle prod i have only witnessed one being used where she touched the chains the gurl was wearing and not the actually the gurls skin. the gurl had on like a slave thingie with draping chains, and that sent her for a loop.

Even a hard core maso is fearful of a cattle prod because the arc snaps and unlike the tens that has constant conduction the prod does not and the jumping of the arc really hurts, not to mention will make you numb. maybe someone else can chime in but i think they cause burns on the skin as well. i never had one used on my but i was told this by a person who did.

I've been on the receiving end of a tens unit being used for back therapy (4 stick on pads)where one of the connections was loose. The dr had turned the unit on and left the room to catch the phone. By the time he returned I was sitting on the floor grabbing my chest (I had fallen off the table). Apparently I was incoherent for a little bit because the "outlet" probe in question had been up on my C3 (high neck). Personally I wouldn't recommend this at all.

Cattle prods I'm very familier with being on a farm. I've accidentally hit myself with an arc by accident before they came with a second safety button. This is not what I would EVER recommend for fun. These things were designed for animals upwards of 1000# and it hurts them. These things do leave marks. i've seen these marks on brain damaged dogs that I've rescued. Calves that have died because some idiot was having "fun". I think that the use of them even for their intended use should be sparing.

Shock collars aren't something to be played with either. I've had dogs come into the shelter to be put to sleep because of damage that prolonged usage has caused. I agree with the arc across the heart causing issues point listed earlier. this is why a no jump shock harness was pulled form the market almost as soon as it hit...a couple dogs died due to heart attack from the probes being improperly placed.

If this is your idea of fun...more power to ya. People are here warning that this is edge play and you should understand the dangers of what you're dealing with. If your experience is different and you haven't injured or killed someone yet... bully for you. At least be responsible and admit that what you're doing potentially can cause harm. If you choose to go forward knowing this and taking precautions that's all that the rest of us ask so that we aren't outted by some idiot getting killed and hitting the news.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 23

RE: shock collars - 1/29/2006 8:24:23 PM

CuriousPuppy

Posts: 120
Joined: 6/20/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Like most "safety" disputes, this one will never be resolved. Some people think playing with electrical toys is too dangerous. Others are willing to take the risk. It's a perfect example of what's wrong with the "safe, sane, consensual" mantra.

I don't think anyone in the thread has said that playing with electrical toys is too dangerous. There have been quite a few however who said that playing with electricity around certain body parts is dangerous and with relatively solid medical reasoning behind that statement. On the other side of the debate, there has been a couple folks who tried to brush off those concerns as being overreactionary because they haven't died or killed anyone yet so it's obviously just fine because nobody has shown them "documented proof" that it's done permanent damage/killed anyone.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 24

RE: shock collars - 1/29/2006 8:52:03 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
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I'd say this is a good example of the opinion that playing with electrical toys is too dangerous. It comes from Real0ne:

quote:

So my advice to those who cant think of anything better, (safer) to do is to keep both probes of these shockers below the waste, (its the best place anyway!), and use it sparingly or better yet pick a different toy from the toy box.

Even below the waste you will still risk causing the problems i had because that is where it was used on me a lot and remember that the rythmn of the heart is governed by electrical signals from the brain and these shockers can interupt and overide them. i hope you all can understand the dangers with this kind of interuption.

"Better yet pick a different toy from the toy box"--doesn't that mean, essentially, "The best thing is not to play with electrical toys at all"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousPuppy
I don't think anyone in the thread has said that playing with electrical toys is too dangerous.

(in reply to CuriousPuppy)

Post #: 25

RE: shock collars - 1/29/2006 9:25:45 PM

CuriousPuppy

Posts: 120
Joined: 6/20/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
I'd say this is a good example of the opinion that playing with electrical toys is too dangerous. It comes from Real0ne:

I can't really speak for him, he could just as easily be talking about something like a remote controlled cbt zapping device or vibrating plug or something if you were set on a remote activated thing. Could also be a reference to a different type of collar that doesn't involve electricity. Granted you could probably fit a shock collar around a leg or something, but it isn't really a collar at that point to a lot of folks.

Look at my "dogfood is unhealthy for people" example earlier in the thread. Just because dogfood is unhealthy for humans, doesn't mean there aren't plenty of other equally petfood like safe substitutes in waiting in a can at your grocery store. Sometimes you just need a bit of creativity to get what your original goal was... sometimes that creativity requires a different toy, sometimes it means using the same toy differently, sometimes it means realizing that what was considered a potential toy really is unsafe.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 26

RE: shock collars - 1/30/2006 7:06:30 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I'd say this is a good example of the opinion that playing with electrical toys is too dangerous. It comes from Real0ne:

quote:

So my advice to those who cant think of anything better, (safer) to do is to keep both probes of these shockers below the waste, (its the best place anyway!), and use it sparingly or better yet pick a different toy from the toy box.

Even below the waste you will still risk causing the problems i had because that is where it was used on me a lot and remember that the rythmn of the heart is governed by electrical signals from the brain and these shockers can interupt and overide them. i hope you all can understand the dangers with this kind of interuption.

"Better yet pick a different toy from the toy box"--doesn't that mean, essentially, "The best thing is not to play with electrical toys at all"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousPuppy
I don't think anyone in the thread has said that playing with electrical toys is too dangerous.

Yes i said that.

i went thru great lengths to point out that right out of the navy electrical engineering books they state the minimum known level of what can be lethal.

i went on to say that all these shock boxes, cattle prods, dog trainer collars, and most tens units go far beyond this limit and therefore using the navy data as a reference these devices are dangerous.

Does this mean that if you touch any form of electricity you will die? Of course not. i have heard of people taking a 30,000 volt hi line shock where it blew the 6 inches of flesh right off of the calves of the legs right down to the bone and they lived.

So what i am saying is that playing with electrical toys is definitely to dangerous for me and should also be considered to dangerous for those who prefer to err on the side of caution.

For those who feel that they are not dangerous no amount of data will be able to prove anything to them possibly until there is a corpse, and even then they will question if the person just died of natural causes and it was only coincidence.

for the record:

before electrical play - heart fine
during electrical play - arrythmia, skipped beats
after electrical play - heart fine
today - heart is still fine 20 years later

Its pretty obvious that electricity caused the problems since it happened within weeks of playing with these toys and they all went away and never came back.

Maybe you need more proof than that, but i dont.

Some people like to throw a parachute out forst and catch and put it on while in free flight before going splat.

i am not saying that you are not responsible but i do think it is the tops responsibility to inform their bottom partner of the potential dangers and it is their partners decision as to whether you can use these devices on them.

i advocate safe play.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/30/2006 7:17:36 AM >

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 27

RE: shock collars - 1/30/2006 9:18:37 AM

dorechan

Posts: 37
Joined: 1/17/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousPuppy
Look at my "dogfood is unhealthy for people" example earlier in the thread. Just because dogfood is unhealthy for humans

Where did you see that dog food was unhealthy for humans ? I haven't tried any, but people taste what they produce in the factory, and anyway dogs as humans are carnivorous mammals. I'm not suggesting anyone should eat dog food (it's too expensive for most people), but just thinking your statement is not true.

< Message edited by dorechan -- 1/30/2006 9:19:49 AM >

(in reply to CuriousPuppy)

Post #: 28

RE: shock collars - 1/30/2006 10:13:54 AM

stef

Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousPuppy

I'm off to work and don't have time for your crap right now. I made it quite clear in my last post that I was heading off to sleep and didn't have time to do more looking. In fact the only reason I bothered to even quote the thread I liked to, was because it had come up somewhere else in the last few days and it came to mind so there was no need to go searching.

Lighten up, Francis. There's no need to take this personally.

quote:

If you don't want to believe that placing electrodes against the neck and throat is dangerous, then good for you. I just hope it's your own throat and neck your putting them on and not someone else's. I hope that the next time some new random person like servitude69, with one post to their name, comes in asking safety questions about a topic they are have no experience with and have only heard of... that you don't try to give them a blanket "oh sure it's safe just be careful" like your appearing to do right now.

You have completely and utterly missed the point. I took exeption to your blanket condemnation of the activity based on what you thought *could* happen. No more, no less. Is that simple enough for you to understand?

Of course there is some risk when playing with electricity, I never claimed otherwise. If a person says that they feel the risk is too high so they choose not to play that way, super. It's when some unknown quantity pops in and says *no one* should play that way where I take offense. That's the same mentality in use by non-scene people who label eveything that we do as sick or unsafe.

Can you see the difference?

~stef

_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to CuriousPuppy)

Post #: 29

RE: shock collars - 1/30/2006 11:20:15 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Yeah, that's exactly the point. There's no such thing as "safe" play, because "safe" is a relative concept. Nothing is absolutely safe. All you can say is what level of risk you're willing to tolerate. Berating other people who are willing to tolerate more or less risk than YOU are is really not much better than bigotry.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

i advocate safe play.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 30

RE: shock collars - 1/30/2006 12:18:47 PM

CuriousPuppy

Posts: 120
Joined: 6/20/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

You have completely and utterly missed the point. I took exeption to your blanket condemnation of the activity based on what you thought *could* happen. No more, no less. Is that simple enough for you to understand?

I don't agree. You started out by flaming me, calling my reaction a chicken little reaction, and suggesting that what my information was unreliable. I admitted originally that the only reason I quoted what I quoted, was because it came to mind and was recent. But to humor you, I went around and pulled quotes & links from warning pages about TENS units... and uhh... they backed up what I said...

quote:

Of course there is some risk when playing with electricity, I never claimed otherwise.

No, you just trivialized a very reasonable warning and went on to say that it was fine because you hadn't had a problem yet.

quote:

If a person says that they feel the risk is too high so they choose not to play that way, super.

Which is how likely to happen to a well informed person when their attempts to become informed say that it's safe enough to not worry about because of posts like yours?

quote:

It's when some unknown quantity pops in and says *no one* should play that way where I take offense. That's the same mentality in use by non-scene people who label eveything that we do as sick or unsafe.

Can you see the difference?

~stef

Ignoring and trivializing warnings about a given activity being medically unsafe is a pretty good way to make those 'non-scene people' you mentioned feel that they are right in their beliefs.

(in reply to stef)

Post #: 31

RE: shock collars - 1/30/2006 1:20:00 PM

stef

Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousPuppy

I don't agree. You started out by flaming me, calling my reaction a chicken little reaction, and suggesting that what my information was unreliable.

If you think that was a flame, perhaps you should reconsider participating in the forums so you can spare your delicate sensibilities any further damage. I never suggested your information was unreliable, I said it was anecdotal. Condemning an entire activity based on such 'evidence' is a Chicken Little reaction. You're overracting needlessly.

quote:

I admitted originally that the only reason I quoted what I quoted, was because it came to mind and was recent. But to humor you, I went around and pulled quotes & links from warning pages about TENS units... and uhh... they backed up what I said...

The manufacturers and sellers of those devices are required to place such warnings on these products because they are regulated medical devices. They cannot advocate their use for situations that have not been tested and approved by one or more of our lovely government agencies. They're most certainly not going to advocate their use for SM play and they're going to make their warnings as broad as possible to limit their legal liability for when people use them for "off label" purposes.

Then again, those disclaimers all pertain to TENS units only, not shock collars. Who knows if the frequency/duration/amplitude produced by a shock collar would even have the same effect as a TENS unit. It would be interesting to put a scope on the contacts of a shock collar and measure the output and it's characteristics.

quote:

No, you just trivialized a very reasonable warning and went on to say that it was fine because you hadn't had a problem yet.

I didn't trivialize anything and you didn't issue a warning, you condemned the act in it's entirety. Again, big difference. I said that *my experiences* were fine and that were only slightly more valuable than the anecdotal evidence you posted. How is that trivializing anything?

quote:

Which is how likely to happen to a well informed person when their attempts to become informed say that it's safe enough to not worry about because of posts like yours?

Where did I say it was safe enough not to worry about? Feel free to point out where I did.

quote:

Ignoring and trivializing warnings about a given activity being medically unsafe is a pretty good way to make those 'non-scene people' you mentioned feel that they are right in their beliefs.

Too bad for your 'argument' that's not what I did. Try to answer the things that I *actually* wrote instead of putting words in my mouth or trying to read some hidden meaning into my words.

~stef

_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to CuriousPuppy)

Post #: 32

RE: shock collars - 1/30/2006 1:20:06 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
There's no such thing as "safe" play, because "safe" is a relative concept. Nothing is absolutely safe. All you can say is what level of risk you're willing to tolerate.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

i advocate safe play.

yes we have traffic laws for relative thinkers who tolerate driving their cars at 110 in the city.

Safety is not relative tho your approach to it certainly is.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 33

RE: shock collars - 1/30/2006 4:32:49 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Unless you mean to say that there should be laws about using electrical toys, and we should all just go ahead and abide by them, that comment is a complete non sequitur.

Zzzzz, this is pointless, and I'm out. "Safety" discussions always end with one person insisting that he's the only sane one in the bunch, and everyone else getting bored and moving on to something else.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

yes we have traffic laws for relative thinkers who tolerate driving their cars at 110 in the city.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 34

RE: shock collars - 1/30/2006 6:23:47 PM

JohnWarren

Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Unless you mean to say that there should be laws about using electrical toys, and we should all just go ahead and abide by them, that comment is a complete non sequitur.

Zzzzz, this is pointless, and I'm out. "Safety" discussions always end with one person insisting that he's the only sane one in the bunch, and everyone else getting bored and moving on to something else.

[\quote

I feel this is one of the big problems with "safety discussions." While they can be conducted rationally, all too often one person or a small group gets on its high horse and declares they are the only ones who know what "safe" is... usually without any objective evidence.

For one thing, almost anything can be done with a reasonable degree of safety if people have a good working knowledge of the risk and a bit of creativity. A simple "this is too dangerous" is counterproductive since it encourages people with the kink to stop thinking about precautions.

The trick is to get some objective measures of the risk and not rely just on "I did it once and got hurt" or "I've done it a lot and not gotten hurt."

The latter always reminds me of a story my father told me about his time in England prior to D-Day. The ships were tied up on shore but no one was allowed to leave the area. My father found a section that didn't seem to be guarded and each night he made a run to the local pub. One night he drank too much and woke up with the sun shining. He rushed back toward the piers only to come to a line of signs in the sand that he hadn't been able to see in the darkness. They read "Danger Mine Field"

Just because he had made the trip many times there was no guarantee the next one would be a lot shorter.... and louder.

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 35

RE: shock collars - 1/30/2006 6:46:27 PM

theRose4U

Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
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quote:

Where did you see that dog food was unhealthy for humans ? I haven't tried any, but people taste what they produce in the factory,

That would actually be untrue. They do have people that are basically smell experts that confirm that the smell and texture are correct but dogs and chemical tests are ultimately what decides which foods make the market. There ARE NO HUMANS that eat dog food for quality control. When you read on a dog food bag that food meets AFFCO standards it is because it was fed to actual food trial participants. Purina and Iams have 2 of the largest collections of experimental animals in the country all so your sweet muffy has the best kibbles and goodies.

Dog food I wouldn't personally recommend for humans but there are alternatives. Raw diet believers use a formulated oatmeal/vegetable blend that when added to COOOKED meat could be ok for a human. Chili would be a ready made alternative as well as potted meat (red devil on the label).

(in reply to dorechan)

Post #: 36

RE: shock collars - 1/30/2006 6:52:51 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Unless you mean to say that there should be laws about using electrical toys, and we should all just go ahead and abide by them, that comment is a complete non sequitur.

Zzzzz, this is pointless, and I'm out. "Safety" discussions always end with one person insisting that he's the only sane one in the bunch, and everyone else getting bored and moving on to something else.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

yes we have traffic laws for relative thinkers who tolerate driving their cars at 110 in the city.

the point is that some people think 110 in the city is tolerable, heck they did it once and it didnt kill em! i have seen them wrapped around trees many times before. the point being that at least in trafic we have laws that determine what the tolerable level is. The city may not have the sharpest tacks in the box but typically they are sharper than the average joe who will take it upon his own wisdom to determine what is tolerable.

Becasue you did it yesterday and the day before hardly is a reason to think its safe tommorrow. How can you reasonably know your partners health can withstand this on any given day? People can take sick without notice and die in the same day without getting zapped.

Can you honestly tell me your partners state of health on any given day?

If you can than your point it taken. If you cant then it seems you may want to consider ours.

good story john

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 37

RE: shock collars - 1/30/2006 6:55:59 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U
Dog food I wouldn't personally recommend for humans but there are alternatives. Raw diet believers use a formulated oatmeal/vegetable blend that when added to COOOKED meat could be ok for a human. Chili would be a ready made alternative as well as potted meat (red devil on the label).

Oh geez now you did it! i havent had oatmeal with a little brown sugar sprinkled on it in sooooo long. i havent had supper yet either LOL think i will cook me up a batch!

(in reply to theRose4U)

Post #: 38

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