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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 6:27:31 PM   
WyrdRich


Posts: 1733
Joined: 1/3/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fastlane
Just wondering as I slap my bitch around!  
Peace, Kevin



     Abusers do it because they are angry, Sadists are doing it because it's fun.

       I suspect you have a smile on your face, so no worries.

(in reply to fastlane)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 6:35:55 PM   
fastlane


Posts: 2159
Joined: 5/26/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you one and all for the insight. I really do believe it is a very fine line, but you have helped to distinguished where that line lies.
It's funny as I look deeper and deeper into the darker side of Fastlane and come to the realization that having a bit of a Sadistic side isn't as bad as the catholic church made it out to be. 

Thanks 1 and all, Kevin


_____________________________

Just because it hurts, doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing.

(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 10:46:44 PM   
Takethiswaltz


Posts: 199
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		It has occured to me, from personal experience, that abusers are generally out of control.
 
It also seems to me, from what I have gleaned from these message boards, that sadists are in control.  Or at least I would hope so.

_____________________________

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in...

~Leonard Cohen~

(in reply to fastlane)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 10:57:57 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Kevin, Kevin, Kevin...sigh...
 
Whenever you hear the little voice in your head that mumles the prayers and morals
and dogma from Catechism classes during your youthful, impressionable years; pause and remember that these teachings were brought to you by the same religion that brought The Crusades and The Inquisition to the world.
 
Or as the Jesuits are famously known for saying, "Give me a child 'till the age
of 7 and he is mine for life!"
 
Blessed Be,
 
-Vendaval-

quote:

ORIGINAL: fastlane

and come to the realization that having a bit of a Sadistic side isn't as bad as the catholic church made it out to be. 



_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to fastlane)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 11:25:27 PM   
scratchingpost


Posts: 231
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with twicehappy very well said

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(=^.^=)
www.misskittys-scratchingpost.com

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 11:47:26 PM   
lilriv


Posts: 12
Joined: 4/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fastlane

How do you distiguish the two?
A Sadist is so abusive, wanting to harm, humiliate, unravel the bottom. So, why when someone slaps his wife...for example...he is abusive?
What seperates the two?
Just wondering as I slap my bitch around!


If you're "slapping your bitch" (as you so ineloquently put it) because you wish to cause her pain without any regard to her feelings, it's abuse. No argument. A master is constantly aware of how his or her slave feels and keeps that always in regard. If slapping is one of your slaves limit, then you should stop. Everybody has their limits and slave and master alike should make certain to communicate what those are. I may shiver with pleasure and pain at the whip, but I'm crying in utter terror if anything sharp comes out because that's one of my own hard limits. A good master knows the difference, when he's gone too far, and when he hasn't gone far enough, when to keep going and when to stop. An abuser sees no difference and if he does, has no control over himself of when to stop.

And how can a slave respect a master who has no control over himself? I certainly don't.

(in reply to fastlane)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/11/2006 11:58:21 PM   
lilriv


Posts: 12
Joined: 4/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

Abusers do it because they are angry, Sadists are doing it because it's fun.

I suspect you have a smile on your face, so no worries.


I have to say I strongly disagree with this and that it's a rather dangerous view to hold. You can't just hit somebody because it's "fun," and people who don't know if they're crossing the line have no place being dominant over another. Again, because it indicates lack of control over him or herself. There has to be a line somewhere, and it's up to master and slave both to decide where that is and whether or not it's acceptable to cross. There have to be some limits and rules in a relationship, and the other person's feelings in the situation are deffinitely part of establishing them.

The rules of punishment are extremely delicate and balanced, and it takes a well-tuned couple to realize what is abuse and what isn't.

(in reply to WyrdRich)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/12/2006 12:31:10 AM   
obis


Posts: 412
Joined: 9/9/2005
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline 		I would say the difference still boils down (as so much in BDSM does) to consent. "Slapping your bitch" for fun without her consent may be motivated by sadism, but it's still abuse. I think sadism is a desire, while abuse is an action -- sometimes they are separate, other times they intersect.

There's no requirement that they be mutually exclusive, and I suspect trying to create such a separation would only reslut in some sadists using that to mentally justify abuse.

(in reply to lilriv)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/12/2006 1:42:46 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I keep thinking about this topic.Today, I just thought: Well - maybe sadists deserve a round of applause for just being very upfront about their bdsm desires? Plus abusers don't have the other person(s) consent of course. I know there may be a finer distinction here and I may be missing it. I am not saying D/s isn't "as much" about desiring  - whatever as S/m is, but - on a very basic level, I think that both D/s and S/m are about "control"  - and both can be acted out on a physical and/or emotional level...so it's possible that degree of pain infliction (vs. another kind of infliction of control) and a Dom or Master enjoying inflicting pain could be the only actual difference. I wonder if there are many Doms and Masters who enjoy inflicting pain and just don't refer to themselves as sadists. Not that that would make them so-called "fakes" and I am sure there are Doms and Masters not "into giving pain much" but - I think the OP's post poses an interesting question. -Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/12/2006 2:40:02 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to WyrdRich)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/12/2006 2:16:05 AM   
cmatrix4761


Posts: 73
Joined: 6/28/2005
Status: offline 		That is probably similar in nature to what makes the difference between a person who kills lots of people out of anger versus a person who kills because he's sociopathic.  A sadist (versus a sedistic abuser) actually empathises with the wishes of the bottom.  An abuser knows it is unwanted but doesn't care.
A sadist would stop if asked, and abuser wouldn't.


_____________________________

-- CM, "Nosce te ipsum."

(in reply to fastlane)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/12/2006 2:32:21 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunshine119

I think you said this well.  Sadists don't care whether or not a person consents.  Sadists don't need to keep their sadism confined within the mutual consent of BDSM.  An abuser IS often a sadist. 


For the most part abusers are often inadequate people rather than sadists per se and often can be cured of their abusive behaviour if thier inadequacy can be shed. This abusive nature is usually comes about by the abuser having been abused themselves and given a sense of inadequacy. Everybody has a sadistic part to their nature to some degree or other but it is not recognised as such because most people are in control of their outward behaviour. Sadism in bdsm is abuse but abuse with consent which makes it acceptable to people in kink. 

It's interesting to look at the situation from the alternative view, that of the masochist. Why their need for abuse?

An interesting thread. 

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/12/2006 2:34:26 AM >

(in reply to Sunshine119)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/12/2006 2:57:42 AM   
collaredheart


Posts: 23
Joined: 9/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

A sadist generally is not an abuser. Granted there are some sadists who abuse their bottoms/subs/slaves but these generally get a reputation for doing so and eventually find themselves without play partners.

A sadist usually respects the limits of the masochist, is usually careful not to do any permanent physical or mental damage (after all if you break your toys how can you play with them again).

A sadist is tormenting a partner who has given their consent to the "torment" inflicted on them. Often the masochist involved will have begged the sadist to inflict the agreed upon pain.

A sadist is usually fulfilling the needs of the masochist as well as his/her own.

After all the cruelest sadist in the world when the masochist said beat me said no.

An abuser, be it of their husband, wife, child, etc... is doing so out of anger and often maims or breaks bones, often leaves permanent mental or physical scars.

An abuser respects no limits as i am sure many an abused husband or wife did not include in their wedding vows a prior agreement such as "you can slap me but not break my jaw".

An abuser is filling no needs except his/her own to lash out in anger and inflict harm on someone generally unable to defend themselves well.

How many abusers of their husband/wife do you hear about yearly that eventually kill the one they were abusing?

Now how many sadists do you hear about yearly who have killed their masochist?

All of this being said I have known and respected many a sadist who outside of a scene helps little old ladies across the street and rescue animals and small children.

I have also known abusers; the only real use I can think of for an abuser is fertilizer.



I just wanted to say how much I liked this posting. It demonstrates the difference very well.
I am fairly masochistic and enjoy and have a deep need for pain from my Master.
It is all about the Control and Dominance involved for me. Also it is about my submission to Him and desire to please Him.
However, previously to my life now I married someone who was verbally,emotionally,mentally and physically abusive and it is so very different. I hated it. I hated him for it. It was destroying me as a person. I finally took that unconsensual control he had over me and Divorced him!

(in reply to twicehappy)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/12/2006 3:10:00 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I consider myself somewhat masochistic and I think that label could also simply be considered just a matter of degree in terms of what "non-masochistic" submissives or slaves enjoy feeling as far as "pain" (generally) from a Dom or a Master.

I am not "copping out" here, (and do not feel insulted by the question) but - I would have to contemplate that particular question more deeply before I could give a perhaps more worthy answer to it.

I don't consider myself to be "victimized" by this side of my personality and actually enjoy that it's there, and I don't feel acting on it makes me any less "adequate"as a person, than someone who hasn't acted on those desires. I just am not sure why they are there.

I do have some "armchair psychology" guesses, but am not sure how important or accurate they would be as far as zoning in on exactly why I enjoy feeling pain (let alone define any answer to that question for anyone else who considers themself to be a masochist).

I know I feel "expanded" by it and feel it somehow makes me feel more "free" to revel in the feeling of wanting to "reach and stretch" -  for someone else's (a partner's) benefit - while the whole time I'm doing it knowing: The pain may get worse, wishing it would stop, and yet  - really wanting it to continue - in order to "prove" - something? (though I know not what). It also makes me feel "ultra" "controlled". And it gratifies me too.That's okay with me (more than okay). My mosochostic "experience level" is not what some might consider to be heavy-duty, but did involved infliction of physical pain (with a belt and also once with a whip, the belt to the point of lots of welts).I know experiencing it made me feel "protected" somehow (and that's all I can muster without more morning coffee).

And -I was not physically "abused" as a child or as an adult (go figure). In my life  there was what may have been not completely intentional (yet pretty consistent) (mostly "subtle") emotional abuse (I don't think I've got tons of "baggage" about it, but that's a matter of perspective and anyone's interpretation who might know me). 

- Susan 

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/12/2006 4:12:27 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/12/2006 3:53:33 AM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you both, scratchingpost and collaredheart, be well.

< Message edited by twicehappy -- 4/12/2006 3:55:17 AM >

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/12/2006 4:41:27 AM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross: A sadist wants the other person to feel PAIN, not pleasure.  A masochist feels pain AS pleasure.

Fluffy sadists however, who want the other person to enjoy the pain, works perfect with a masochist.


It doesn't happen often but I have to strongly disagree With what LA said here.

First of all what the heck is a 'fluffy sadist'?? One who roleplays being a 'sadist' much like a 'top' roleplays being a 'dominant'???

Havelock Ellis wrote about sadism & masochism in the early 1900's. The following is an excert from one of his writings. I am sure I have read this within other studies, but this was the first one I recalled & could easily find this morning.

... the sadist desires to inflict pain, but in some cases, if not most, he desires that it should be felt as love. How far de Sade consciously desired that the pain he sought to inflict should be felt as pleasureit may not now be possible to discover, except by indirect reference, tbut the confessions of sadists show that such a desire is quite commonly essential...
    We have thus to recognize that sadism by no means involves any love of inflicting pain outside the sphere of sexual emotion, & is even compatible with a high degree of general tender-heartedness. We have also to recognize that even within the sexual sphere the sadist by no means wishes to exclude the victim's pleasure, & may even regard that pleasure as essential to his own satisfaction.
<snip>

Sadism & masochism are simply convenient clinical terms for classes of manifestations which quite commonly occur in the same person. We have further found that -as might have been anticipated in view of foregoiung result-it is scarcely correct to use the word cruelty in connection with the phenomena we have been considering. The persons who experience these impulses usually show no love of cruelty outside the sphere of sexual emotion; they may even be very intolerant of cruelty. Even when their sexual implulses come into play they may still desire to secure the pleasure of the person who arouse their sexual emotions...

_____________________________

MstrssPassion


(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/12/2006 4:54:20 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Appreciate the enlightenment and think this has been a really good thread.
- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to MstrssPassion)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/12/2006 4:59:53 AM   
shivvy


Posts: 746
Joined: 3/25/2006
From: Ireland, living in Kent, England.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I consider myself somewhat masochistic and I think that label could also simply be considered just a matter of degree in terms of what "non-masochistic" submissives or slaves enjoy feeling as far as "pain" (generally) from a Dom or a Master.

I am not "copping out" here, (and do not feel insulted by the question) but - I would have to contemplate that particular question more deeply before I could give a perhaps more worthy answer to it.

I don't consider myself to be "victimized" by this side of my personality and actually enjoy that it's there, and I don't feel acting on it makes me any less "adequate"as a person, than someone who hasn't acted on those desires. I just am not sure why they are there.

I do have some "armchair psychology" guesses, but am not sure how important or accurate they would be as far as zoning in on exactly why I enjoy feeling pain (let alone define any answer to that question for anyone else who considers themself to be a masochist).

I know I feel "expanded" by it and feel it somehow makes me feel more "free" to revel in the feeling of wanting to "reach and stretch" -  for someone else's (a partner's) benefit - while the whole time I'm doing it knowing: The pain may get worse, wishing it would stop, and yet  - really wanting it to continue - in order to "prove" - something? (though I know not what). It also makes me feel "ultra" "controlled". And it gratifies me too.That's okay with me (more than okay). My mosochostic "experience level" is not what some might consider to be heavy-duty, but did involved infliction of physical pain (with a belt and also once with a whip, the belt to the point of lots of welts).I know experiencing it made me feel "protected" somehow (and that's all I can muster without more morning coffee).

And -I was not physically "abused" as a child or as an adult (go figure). In my life  there was what may have been not completely intentional (yet pretty consistent) (mostly "subtle") emotional abuse (I don't think I've got tons of "baggage" about it, but that's a matter of perspective and anyone's interpretation who might know me). 

- Susan 


this is so true. to be honest, and to speak from the heart, i just think accepting/enjoying pain for your Master, just feels so right. and whilst i hate it at the time, and yes, i do cry and scream sometimes, or want to anyway, afterwards, i feel so elated and "free" i spose. sorry, i can't describe it coz i'm no good at describing stuff, but to me, it just feels right.

_____________________________


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(¸.•´ (¸.•´ .•´ ¸¸.•¨¯`•.εΐз¸¸.·*´¯`v´¯`*·.¸¸ـ εΐз ~*luv shivvy*~ ـ εΐз

xxx
Owned and collared by SavageFaerie and Master P

(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/12/2006 5:56:33 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion
First of all what the heck is a 'fluffy sadist'?? One who roleplays being a 'sadist' much like a 'top' roleplays being a 'dominant'???

For me a fluffy sadist is someone who likes to give "pain" ONLY if they know the other person is directly getting pleasure from the experience.

Sadists are people who like to HURT other people, not give them subspace or their masochistic jollies.

And believe me, there are sadists out there who REALLY enjoy knowing the other person REALLY is NOT enjoying the experience.  The other person accepts the experience, gains pleasure indirectly from service, but is not at all enjoying the pain.

This confuses a lot of people about me- I love everything about pain play EXCEPT the pain part.  I hate pain.  And yet I often play with heavy/hard sadists who WANT me to feel pain.  They know I'm not going to go into subspace, they know I'm not going to moan or make happy yummy sounds, they know I'm not going to feel anything except "Goddamn this fucking bastard this hurts and I want it to stop NOW."

I enjoy the service, the fear, indirectly the pleasure that THEY get from actually hurting me.  But I hate the pain.  And they love knowing I'm not getting any happy feelings from the pain they are giving.  They do indeed love cruelty.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/12/2006 7:06:56 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I think it's okay to "just like doing it" if it's not hurting anyone except oneself (and one trusts the person inflicting the pain of course). - Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/12/2006 7:08:03 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to shivvy)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/12/2006 7:55:51 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		Now I am getting confused; if I am turned on by a sadist really liking cruelty, am I not a "real" masochist or am I just "not a masochist bottom" or  - what am I?
I like pain but don't really have enough experience to know if  I'd be considered a "true" "pain slut"...

Someone mentioned in this thread that some sadists will seem (key word) to "border on non-consensuality" with some of their partner(s). This seems to fit the concept of "sadist"; although I am inclined to believe they know those partners well enough to know how far to go with it and I understand that idea.

That's what it seemed like for me with two particular instances with belts. I didn't know the other person was going as "far" as they actually did go (but they didn't go farther than I could take; they just belted me more than I thought they were going to - they'd (we'd) already established a previous time how many I could handle). It hurt (and for days afterward). I'd known this person for over 6 months and we'd been together five times before that. I trusted them - a lot. I already knew they cared about my welfare, and we were friends before (and after) we started doing kinky things together.

I do know I really liked looking forward to it (but was apprehansive the whole day before) and after it was over a few days it seems I remembered most the sensation of liking that it made me feel protected somehow (if that makes sense).I looked forward to it and have fantasies about pretty "extreme" (for me) pain (branding that it "seems" non-consensual, for instance). It's just a fantasy and I am not sure I'd want to do that -  as far as fantasies go- I "draw a hard line" at "sn__f" (and yes, I am joking. I maybe shouldn't be joking; someone may read this thread for whom that is major fantasy material and then all message board diplomacy will have been lost). Who Am I anymore....every day...this part of my world just gets more and more bizarre.

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/12/2006 8:29:15 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 40
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