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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/12/2006 8:31:35 AM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion
First of all what the heck is a 'fluffy sadist'?? One who roleplays being a 'sadist' much like a 'top' roleplays being a 'dominant'???

For me a fluffy sadist is someone who likes to give "pain" ONLY if they know the other person is directly getting pleasure from the experience.

Sadists are people who like to HURT other people, not give them subspace or their masochistic jollies.

And believe me, there are sadists out there who REALLY enjoy knowing the other person REALLY is NOT enjoying the experience. The other person accepts the experience, gains pleasure indirectly from service, but is not at all enjoying the pain.

This confuses a lot of people about me- I love everything about pain play EXCEPT the pain part. I hate pain. And yet I often play with heavy/hard sadists who WANT me to feel pain. They know I'm not going to go into subspace, they know I'm not going to moan or make happy yummy sounds, they know I'm not going to feel anything except "Goddamn this fucking bastard this hurts and I want it to stop NOW."

I enjoy the service, the fear, indirectly the pleasure that THEY get from actually hurting me. But I hate the pain. And they love knowing I'm not getting any happy feelings from the pain they are giving. They do indeed love cruelty.

I need the person's consent and I need them to get something out of it but it need not be any enjoyment of the pain inflicted.

Playing with my slave who submits to my flogging or other things because he wants to please me is a very different energy than when I've been with masochists.

I like them both.

It takes less time for me to get my sadistic fix though from someone who dislikes or hates the physical pain but is happy to suffer for me and gets a high from hearing "Good boy" afterwards.

With a masochist it takes me a much longer time of doing SM to get that same level of rush -- of course the masochist is happy about the time it takes so there's no problem.

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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/12/2006 8:36:18 AM

Tikkiee

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This is not in response to anyone in particular, I just wanted to add my thoughts to the mix.
I truly believe that it is the control that a person exerts over themselves that draws the fine line between abuse and sadism.
I was extemely abused and tortured as a child; there are still times that if Chris moves in a certain way, I flash back and become locked in fear. And yet, his ability to recognize that fear, and to stop what he is doing, is what seperates our relationship from that of an abusive one. Chris is the kind that really enjoys seeing the pain on a girl's face; knowing that she is suffering from it. Yet, the minute he see's fear, or hears fear in the voice; it stops immediatly.
To me, that's what keeps it from becoming abuse.
Just my thoughts on the matter though.

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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/12/2006 9:52:55 AM

acctonthelook

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During my dilema with this topic, TheShadows quote below, helped me find this answer...

quote:

ORIGINAL: fastlane
How do you distiguish the two?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_320951/mpage_3/tm.htm

quote:

original: TheShadows
Something I use as part of my Ethical Sadism, thanks Archer, is the following phrase...

"I want to hurt you, not harm you."

You may want to investigate what the words "hurt" and "harm" mean to you. This could possibly open up a new line of thinking for you in regards to the fears of abuse in an S&M scenario.

For me, hurt is "Fuck, that stings!"
For me, harm is "Someone call 911!"

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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/12/2006 10:23:30 AM

fastlane

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The last few posts have highlited the confusion that I have asked about. A heavy Sadist vs a fluffy one. Pain administered but recognizing the fear, one will cease. The enjoyment of the Masochists vs the Sadist who wishes to deprive the Masochists the pleasure that is sought. The Sadist who administers something completely unpleasurable, because now he is the one enjoying the discomfort and agony of the recipient. See, these are all answers and opinions that make this particular area so gray.
As for my quote about slapping my bitch around....ummm, that was made in jest, I adore my pup
That said, I would be more of a fluff Sadist, as LA put it, as I like dishing out pain to those that enjoy it, not those that don't. However, that's where my question came into play. If I were to be administering pain to someone who abhored it, yet allowed me to do so, what am I really doing being Sadistic or being abusive?

Thanks again for all the insights here. I think this a topic that will not come to any conclusion, but still, very interesting.
Hells Bells, Kevin

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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/12/2006 1:09:23 PM

SusanofO

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I agree we are "at a crossroads" in terms of beating this to death.
To answer: I don't know all that much about this area, so maybe wait (or not) for an actual sadist to add their "two cents". I am not very experinced in general, but -

I think it pays for people who think they want to "try more pain" to take note and say something akin to: "What does "inflicting pain" mean to you - in terms of executing the infliction?" (and listen to their description) before an encounter with anyone who states: I am a sadist. Sometimes I think: If a sadist didn't care about "ethics" would they be even bothering to state that they were a sadist...unless they have some "agenda" and simply want to make themsleves sound "impressive", or "scary"etc.(and I do know it pays to "check people out").

The person I asked for more pain did Not, particularly, 'consider themselves' a sadist - but they knew I wanted to try experiencing more physical pain- and we both enjoyed it (they said they did anyway. It did hurt me beyond what I was led to believe I would "endure" and I actually liked experiencing it - but it was "only" five extra "swats".

In any case, he gave me pain - *and more pain than I was anticipating, but that he'd surmised I could handle -on three occasions (and I trusted his judgment). I liked it But - that might not necessarily mean I am a masochist according to any other particular person's way of thinking - and I don't think I have enough experience to really believe I am one completely - that's why my profile says I think I probably have a masochistic streak.

I do think what people identify themselves as in the bdsm realm is largely terminology (and that is not meant to insult anyone in any way)- I mean it is a culture and it's convenient that there be some way for people to be able to communicate and delineate a primary interest with one or phrase or word, etc.

But I also have the impression that how many may identify themselves really Is based on having much life experience and that they do truly know themselves -as well as what they want - as well as how to draw that out of someone else, (and if they don't, they try to figure out how to do it). I doubt you really know until you know them better (and find out specifically what people have done, or think about wanting to do more of, in terms of actual activity. - Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/12/2006 1:35:55 PM >

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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/12/2006 4:23:48 PM

MstrssPassion

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quote:

Thanks again for all the insights here. I think this a topic that will not come to any conclusion, but still, very interesting.

This is most likely true since I cannot agree with the generalization that so many are hung up on... that a sadist is only focused on self pleasure. That is a selfish pig, not a sadist.

Study after study from reputable persons have made the same statement... I just wish I had time to pull up every reference I have read.

I posted one such in my previous post, no sense bring it up again.

Just another example of how the stereotyping of terminology has corrupted basic understanding.

Sadism & masochism has been recognized & studied for MANY years. The BDSM/Lifestyle/Leather, D/s & M/s movement does not have the same recognized history.

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Post #: 46

RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/12/2006 4:41:43 PM

TheSilentRuler

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tikkiee

This is not in response to anyone in particular, I just wanted to add my thoughts to the mix.
I truly believe that it is the control that a person exerts over themselves that draws the fine line between abuse and sadism.
I was extemely abused and tortured as a child; there are still times that if Chris moves in a certain way, I flash back and become locked in fear. And yet, his ability to recognize that fear, and to stop what he is doing, is what seperates our relationship from that of an abusive one. Chris is the kind that really enjoys seeing the pain on a girl's face; knowing that she is suffering from it. Yet, the minute he see's fear, or hears fear in the voice; it stops immediatly.
To me, that's what keeps it from becoming abuse.
Just my thoughts on the matter though.

I would have to agree. This is really good coming from someone that was abused as a child. It allows us to see your perspective.

I know I like to see the sub's discomfort in a situation. It's not all the time and there's plenty of times when it's as little as using a condom because she doesn't like the feel of it. She's getting pleasure but at the same time she's aware of the condom. She was raped when she was younger so there are certain cenerios that are out. I tend to play with her emotions and if we did one of those scenerios it would probably take her back. One time it was really close and she didn't want any type of touching for three days.

I do not consider myself a sadist but had to respond to this post. I think as long as you and your partner have an agreement beforehand and both know the bounderies, then it's not abuse. If my sub uses a safe word she knows I may go just a little bit further to add to her discomfort. If she ever showed signs of flashing back I would stop. That one time when she was really close she did not let me see.

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RE: Sadism vs Abuse? - 4/13/2006 5:42:13 AM

BrutalAntipathy

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This is most likely true since I cannot agree with the generalization that so many are hung up on... that a sadist is only focused on self pleasure. That is a selfish pig, not a sadist.

A hedonist is concerned with self pleasure. A sadist may or may not be a hedonist as well. My sadism doesn't care if a recipient enjoys what I am doing or not. It is my ethics that govern who I decide to have on the receiving end.

I should also add that sadism requires a strong degree of empathy for me. Were I not empathetic toward the person receiving pain, I would gain little or no pleasure from inflicting it. I would not begin to claim that this is the case with all sadists though. I just know that it is true of myself.

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Post #: 48