RE: I had a crazy idea (Full Version)

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LillyBoPeep -> RE: I had a crazy idea (8/8/2011 9:12:25 AM)

well the idea of a multiverse was "crazy" not too long ago, and now it's being accepted in theory by all sorts of reputable people, so hey -- today's "crazy" is tomorrow's "duh." =p
when you start talking about what could be outside the universe, or the shape of the universe, the notion of something being "outside" bring in the possibility that whatever is outside could be so huge we can't even comprehend it. what if we're inside a cat's collar, like in Men In Black? what if we're a speck of dust clinging to the fur of some giant cosmic water buffalo?
(another great segment on TTWH -- one scientist theorized that the universe is a closed dodecahedron, and passing through one facet of it pops you back out to the opposing facet so it seems like it's going on forever when it really isn't. another scientist disagreed by saying if that were true we'd find evidence of the tangent points where the dodecahedron meets whatever's outside, but that's assuming that whatever's outside is only a smidge larger than the dodecahedron itself -- it could be GINORMOUS, so we'd never see those points.)




mnottertail -> RE: I had a crazy idea (8/8/2011 9:20:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 0ldhen



I don't know.....and without going through a lot of technical stuff.....I've always imagined time to flow along sort of a Moebius strip.


The august August Moebius spent alotta time hitting that Klein bottle, so I wouldnt take too much stock in that, he was prolly  drunk.


And yes, I can hit...if you like (unless that was meant as 'hit me up')


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG9PVucS9aw




NuevaVida -> RE: I had a crazy idea (8/8/2011 9:36:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

Your a bit confused. Time IS a dimension in your second group of scientists, which is the vast majority of them. There arent additional dimensions of time.

The "arrangement of snapshots" idea is more likely from a philosopher than a scientist. It is an extension of Einsteins demonstration that time is relative, and if it is then past present and future could exist simultaneously. But if they do exist simultaneously why do we perceive ourselves as moving along in time. They then liken it to a movie...which is a series of snapshots that give the illusion of motion.


She's talking about the show with Morgan Freeman (Through the Wormhole) I think. I saw the episode she's referring to. He wasn't a philosopher. There are a number of "new" theories and I mean a NUMBER of them.



Dr. Michio Kaku, Physicist and Professor at C.U.N.Y.,  was a guest speaker of one of my favorite technical shows, some years ago. He is a fascinating physicist, and the first I ever heard about "string theories" from (he is co-author of this theory).  His website has several articles, the most fascinating of which (in my opinion) is "M-Theory: The Mother of all Superstrings"    The site also has links to some fascinating academic papers, as well as his blog (which contains writings as well as video).

I've linked his website (in which there is an article on wormholes) for those interested.




Aswad -> RE: I had a crazy idea (8/8/2011 9:42:26 AM)

The Big Bang?

See, recent inquiries into the CMB give a decent estimate of a diffraction event at a point in spacetime prior to the Big Bang, which would tend to indicate that there was something before it (if we disregard time, which is just a component of distance, it would probably be viable to say the event was a causal antecedent of an event in the Earth-observable spacetime region, though whether it was causal of the Big Bang isn't something one can gainfully speculate on).

That said, if one posits a transition in the "speed limit", a coherent beam of light entering a medium that has a lower absolute speed of light (not talking about refractive indices and such here), would presumably behave similarly to how physical transitions in speed do, which is by forming a toroidal structure that eventually tends to resemble a mushroom cloud (unless the toroid has soliton characteristics).

The common example is a smoke ring.

With a toroidal topology caused by a speed transition, perhaps due to moving against a "brick wall" gravity gradient, the universe would undergo a period of rapid inflation as the toroid forms, and then either grow more diffuse in the manner of a mushroom cloud, or stay in toroidal configuration if it was close to the soliton requirements. A slight deviation from soliton requirements would give an expanding or contracting universe, depending on which direction the deviation ran. Current observation favors an expanding universe, corresponding to an overshoot relative to the stable state.

Toroids are interesting structures, among other things because rotating around both axes means you have to turn 720 degrees to get back to where you started, just like electrons. Some physicists have done fringe work on a theory that this has implications for the fundamental behavior of the universe, ranging from models of excitations on a toroidal surface to "strips" having a toroidally closing curvature that gives rise to observed physical constants.

The best example of the rotation thing is something most people have made at some point: a möbius strip. Anyone that hasn't made one, is encouraged to take a strip of paper, twist it once and then glue the ends together. When you follow the surface of the strip, you will see that it actually only has one side from the perspective of an ant crawling along the surface. If you draw a line around a donut, starting on the near side top, moving to the far outside middle, then to the near side bottom, then to the far inside middle, and back to the near side top, that is the exact same path through space, and clearly visualizes a macroscopic spin-1/2 condition: you must turn 720 degrees about the donut to return to the outset, so long as you're rotating around the crossection of the donut (poloidal axis) with the same angular velocity as around the outline of the donut (toroidal axis).

For your edification, there's also a superconducting möbius train demo on YouTube showing a train moving around a track in this way by using something called flux pinning (which is way off topic, but WP covers it if you're interested).

Just some random thoughts.

Health,
al-Aswad.




LillyBoPeep -> RE: I had a crazy idea (8/8/2011 9:51:06 AM)

ooo interesting post! that theory was also touched on; that the universe was a torus. you could travel along and never come to an edge because there isn't really an edge. i admit, i had to do some googling, but that makes me happy. more stuff to read! ^_^




Icarys -> RE: I had a crazy idea (8/8/2011 9:53:41 AM)

quote:

Dr. Michio Kaku, Physicist and Professor at C.U.N.Y., was a guest speaker of one of my favorite technical shows, some years ago.

I love to hear him talk. Brilliant man.

One of the episodes of through the Wormhole my personal wiffle ball theory was talked about by a scientist and I believe he has hosted a show that spoke about it as well. My memory isn't the greatest at times and he may have very well been the one speaking about it. Anyway.

It might explain the existence on wormholes and they're usefulness. He went on to say that a wormhole is a cosmic vacuum cleaner and recycle'r of sorts. It would draw in matter from one part of the universe and distribute it into another which would then be formed into new systems. That's where I break a bit from his theory and mine kicks in. I think it may get sent to different universes so in turn the wiffle ball like wormholes would be linked from one dimension to another. One of the problems with my particular theory is that we have yet to find a wormhole (that I'm aware of anyway) that spews matter into ours. Our universe is of course huge and we are about as truly less knowledgable of it than we like to admit. How really could we be so sure as we are when we barely know the full extent of our own planet and it's oceans.




mnottertail -> RE: I had a crazy idea (8/8/2011 9:54:37 AM)

And let it be said that a moebius strip need not have only one twist.  The thought that standing waves in the electron orbits (to me at least) are akin to the corkscrewed phone cords would account for all that, and since there is a handedness or spin to quarks........

In any case al-Aswad, I am of the ever collapsing and re-expanding universe crowd, it satisfies my sense of ------correctness (???) don't quite know if there is a word for what  it satifies in me.    




sunshinemiss -> RE: I had a crazy idea (8/8/2011 9:56:08 AM)

Aswad, darling,
If that is your version of random thoughts, the world may fall off its axis if you actually focus on something.
best,
sunshine




Icarys -> RE: I had a crazy idea (8/8/2011 10:17:11 AM)

quote:

His website has several articles, the most fascinating of which (in my opinion) is "M-Theory:

Thanks.




Icarys -> RE: I had a crazy idea (8/8/2011 10:20:57 AM)

quote:

Current observation favors an expanding universe

I understand they think this and can even understand why they would come to this conclusion to a degree but I'm curious, since I've never been taught why exactly. Where did they get their control of movement from? In relation to earth? Stars in relation to one another? How do they know which way is north so to speak in order to say "this way"?




mnottertail -> RE: I had a crazy idea (8/8/2011 10:23:02 AM)

there is no up it is expanding in every direction, they know from such things as redshift, and observations over centuries.

we are moving like a crazy frizbee in it really up (if you will) to the side (if you will) and spinning around our core.....

Like a frizbee thrown at a steep angle and lip up steeply as well.




Icarys -> RE: I had a crazy idea (8/8/2011 10:25:16 AM)

quote:

there is no up it is expanding in every direction, they know from such things as redshift, and observations over centuries.


Wouldn't there be a point of origin?

The theory that things just appeared and then move away from one another in the same direction seems odd sorta. They say it wasn't like a grenade going off but if it wasn't like that then that's just as strange a theory as any.




mnottertail -> RE: I had a crazy idea (8/8/2011 10:31:10 AM)

Called the big bang (I suppose) and some 12 to 14 billion years ago, but it was an explosion OF space, not IN space.  And it sort of pervades us, if there was a center, we are so far away from it and moving like everything else equally away from it and each other we could not pinpoint it. 

We cant sort thru the rubble like a building and find the seminal event, because we are the building.




Icarys -> RE: I had a crazy idea (8/8/2011 10:39:47 AM)

quote:

Called the big bang (I suppose) and some 12 to 14 billion years ago, but it was an explosion OF space, not IN space. And it sort of pervades us, if there was a center, we are so far away from it and moving like everything else equally away from it and each other we could not pinpoint it.

That's kinda partly my point. If we are moving away from something equally how would we not be able to pinpoint anything. One would think that if we can measure movements in the heavens then we could have a mathematical path to the start line.

One theory holds that as you said partly that everything happened simultaneously. So I wonder then if that's true how did we all wind up moving in the same general directions. AWAY from something.

There are so many frigging theories out now. I've seen models for a grenade like expansion, an all at one time throughout space expansion and a number of others. So which one is true.




mnottertail -> RE: I had a crazy idea (8/8/2011 10:42:41 AM)

we are not moving away from a center, the best analogy is to make some dots on a balloon, and blow it up........thats how we are moving.




Icarys -> RE: I had a crazy idea (8/8/2011 10:46:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

we are not moving away from a center, the best analogy is to make some dots on a balloon, and blow it up........thats how we are moving.

I know that theory. So everything is moving away from everything else in all directions.

Maybe everything is just moving away from us in all directions..maybe we are the center of everything after all. [:D]




mnottertail -> RE: I had a crazy idea (8/8/2011 10:55:33 AM)

Our youth and good looks (insofar as the universe is concerned) would preclude that.  There are far more august bodies out there (moving away from us in all directions) that would grasp that brass center ring, if indeed it is brass, and a ring, and in the center.




Icarys -> RE: I had a crazy idea (8/8/2011 11:03:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Our youth and good looks (insofar as the universe is concerned) would preclude that.  There are far more august bodies out there (moving away from us in all directions) that would grasp that brass center ring, if indeed it is brass, and a ring, and in the center.

I don't think for all the knowledge we think we hold that we hold near the amount needed to begin to form coherently strung theories. We though as egotistical a species as we are will never be able to form anything but fumblingly placed words in an attempt to do so and prove little but pat ourselves on the backs for our wordsmithing abilities.




NuevaVida -> RE: I had a crazy idea (8/8/2011 11:07:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

It might explain the existence on wormholes and they're usefulness. He went on to say that a wormhole is a cosmic vacuum cleaner and recycle'r of sorts. It would draw in matter from one part of the universe and distribute it into another which would then be formed into new systems. That's where I break a bit from his theory and mine kicks in. I think it may get sent to different universes so in turn the wiffle ball like wormholes would be linked from one dimension to another. One of the problems with my particular theory is that we have yet to find a wormhole (that I'm aware of anyway) that spews matter into ours. Our universe is of course huge and we are about as truly less knowledgable of it than we like to admit. How really could we be so sure as we are when we barely know the full extent of our own planet and it's oceans.



Re: the bolded part, I believe I've read Dr. Kaku pretty much saying the same thing.

I have not, however, read anything on matter coming into our universe, but it wouldn't surprise me, and it could certainly explain a lot.






WinsomeDefiance -> RE: I had a crazy idea (8/8/2011 11:08:34 AM)

I'm the least person qualified to touch upon this, but I think the reason we 'all' aren't moving in the same direction at the same time (as we are expanding outward in all directions) has to do with stars at various points throughout the universe dying at different time, black holes of various sizes forming as consequence - some causing galaxies to collide, and the explosion of energy outward from them.  Even if expanding on a curve, there are various energies being applied at different areas in space.  How significant each event is, in the whole entirety of the universe, no clue.

Maybe one could mathematically chart the origin backward, if one could factor in all the variables - ie document and measure each of the explosions in space that transpired since the original Big Bang.  All that to say, who is to say we are moving outward equally, since there are so many things happening that we are just now becoming aware of, and so many more we haven't touched upon.  Which may be total and complete bullshit, and completely wrong and irrelevant.  As I said, I'm the least qualified to touch upon such things.




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