RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter?

RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter? (Full Version)

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thompsonx -> RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter? (7/28/2013 5:05:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 But the Army doesn't take tasers or baton rounds into combat, and the less lethal portion of LE use of force is outside of the military paradigm. The army no longer studies non lethal crowd control techniques?????why???[8\|]

NotTellingUAgain -> RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter? (7/28/2013 5:08:21 PM)
Lots of SARCASM from folks who just don't want to imagine a Different Way Of Doing Things... look in the mirror...one day it may be YOU

Powergamz1 -> RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter? (7/28/2013 5:09:04 PM)
When you learn the difference between 'into combat' and 'crowd control', get back to me. On second thought... don't bother. quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 But the Army doesn't take tasers or baton rounds into combat, and the less lethal portion of LE use of force is outside of the military paradigm. The army no longer studies non lethal crowd control techniques?????why???[8\|]

Powergamz1 -> RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter? (7/28/2013 5:11:57 PM)
Or you could simply answer the question, instead of playing internet 'Look At Me!!!' games at the expense of dead people. quote: ORIGINAL: NotTellingUAgain Lots of SARCASM from folks who just don't want to imagine a Different Way Of Doing Things... look in the mirror...one day it may be YOU

thompsonx -> RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter? (7/28/2013 5:13:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 When you learn the difference between 'into combat' and 'crowd control', get back to me. On second thought... don't bother. Crowd control is not combat????since when? quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 But the Army doesn't take tasers or baton rounds into combat, and the less lethal portion of LE use of force is outside of the military paradigm. The army no longer studies non lethal crowd control techniques?????why???[8\|]

mstrj69 -> RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter? (7/28/2013 5:26:34 PM)
The original post has nothing to do with the army. What difference does it make if 4 people shot him 41 times or if 41 people shot him 400 times or 1 person shot him once. If he is shot and dies, he is dead. As for why do they have guns with bullets, would you go out not carrying bullets if you thought you might get into a gun fight?

vincentML -> RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter? (7/29/2013 8:08:58 AM)
quote: You and reality will simply have to agree to disagree. But enjoy those TV fueled internet tough guy fantasies. So basically you have no valid response. TYVM[8\|]

Powergamz1 -> RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter? (7/29/2013 8:15:21 AM)
Valid response to the irrational fallacies you posted? I've already debunked them once, and the laws of physics and biology aren't going to change to suit your comic book solutions anytime soon. This is a real person, who is really dead, so no, I won't be playing your games. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: You and reality will simply have to agree to disagree. But enjoy those TV fueled internet tough guy fantasies. So basically you have no valid response. TYVM[8\|]

vincentML -> RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter? (7/29/2013 8:21:18 AM)
quote: One of the first things I learned after graduating from the academy, was that I was going to be in the midst of mentally disturbed, often angry, often resentful people on a daily basis. Some of them had guns. And that was before I went out on patrol... If you were not taught to approach a single subject armed with a knife on a quiet street with your gun unholstered and to the front and if you were not taught to remain at a safe distance then you graduated from the Academy of St. Teresa. Why is it that a hostage situation or a jumper can be stalled and talked down but a single knifer cannot? And were you taught to open fire at the "appearance of danger" as the grand jury approved? Seems doubtful.

vincentML -> RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter? (7/29/2013 8:22:47 AM)
quote: Valid response to the irrational fallacies you posted? I've already debunked them once, and the laws of physics and biology aren't going to change to suit your comic book solutions anytime soon You rely on a bogus video assuming the need to draw your weapon which should have been unholstered at the approach.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter? (7/29/2013 8:34:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: One of the first things I learned after graduating from the academy, was that I was going to be in the midst of mentally disturbed, often angry, often resentful people on a daily basis. Some of them had guns. And that was before I went out on patrol... If you were not taught to approach a single subject armed with a knife on a quiet street with your gun unholstered and to the front and if you were not taught to remain at a safe distance then you graduated from the Academy of St. Teresa. Why is it that a hostage situation or a jumper can be stalled and talked down but a single knifer cannot? And were you taught to open fire at the "appearance of danger" as the grand jury approved? Seems doubtful. Work on the reading comprehension. Especially the punch line. One more time.. that's TV-land, not real life. In police academies across the nation, what is taught is 'high carry', and 'low carry', not that ridiculous stuff you've got stuck in your head from the movies. And every police officer in America is taught that deadly force is only justified under the narrow conditions set forth by the Supreme Court in the Garner and the Graham rulings... 'clear and immediate danger'. That's been posted here numerous times, you can keep going 'Laaa laaa laa Never happened!!!' all you want, it is the law of the land. And your internet tough guy notion that the best way to de-escalate a situation like the ones under discussion is for everyone to stick their guns in the face of the disturbed person is as ludicrous as the 'just shoot the knife out of their hand' comic book fantasies. Finally, if you cannot grasp the difference in mental state of a person intent on jumping to kill themselves, and a person with a weapon hurting others, you really don't have a basis to add anything useful to this discussion, do you?

Powergamz1 -> RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter? (7/29/2013 8:38:25 AM)
I relied on a well known set of law enforcement training scenarios, that debunked the ridiculous lie about 'at 15 feet you can't legally shoot'. I added a real life video. The problem apparently lies in the fact that you can't separate real life from your own Hollywood fueled keyboard commando fantasies. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Valid response to the irrational fallacies you posted? I've already debunked them once, and the laws of physics and biology aren't going to change to suit your comic book solutions anytime soon You rely on a bogus video assuming the need to draw your weapon which should have been unholstered at the approach.

vincentML -> RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter? (7/30/2013 5:47:14 AM)
quote: I relied on a well known set of law enforcement training scenarios, that debunked the ridiculous lie about 'at 15 feet you can't legally shoot'. I added a real life video. The problem apparently lies in the fact that you can't separate real life from your own Hollywood fueled keyboard commando fantasies. No, dude, the problem is yours. You cite a video that centers upon drawing the weapon from its holster when clearly that is a strawman. There is no mention in this case of cops drawing from their holsters and in all likelihood they approached the knife kid with guns already drawn and came within a danger distance. There is no mention of the kid attacking. Just freakin absurd. Here is another case of police ineptitude. They enter the apartment of a 95 year old man who refused involuntary hospital commitment and kill him with bean bag shots at close range. Another knife wielder but this one in his own flat under attack by police for no good reason. WTF is it with you guys? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQWiJhcy_xc

Powergamz1 -> RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter? (7/30/2013 6:02:06 AM)
Enjoy your internet tough guy armchair quarterbacking about how you would do it right (even though you haven't come up with a single answer that isn't unworkable), and simply handwave away the reality. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: I relied on a well known set of law enforcement training scenarios, that debunked the ridiculous lie about 'at 15 feet you can't legally shoot'. I added a real life video. The problem apparently lies in the fact that you can't separate real life from your own Hollywood fueled keyboard commando fantasies. No, dude, the problem is yours. You cite a video that centers upon drawing the weapon from its holster when clearly that is a strawman. There is no mention in this case of cops drawing from their holsters and in all likelihood they approached the knife kid with guns already drawn and came within a danger distance. There is no mention of the kid attacking. Just freakin absurd. Here is another case of police ineptitude. They enter the apartment of a 95 year old man who refused involuntary hospital commitment and kill him with bean bag shots at close range. Another knife wielder but this one in his own flat under attack by police for no good reason. WTF is it with you guys? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQWiJhcy_xc

vincentML -> RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter? (7/30/2013 6:40:41 AM)
quote: Enjoy your internet tough guy armchair quarterbacking about how you would do it right (even though you haven't come up with a single answer that isn't unworkable), and simply handwave away the reality. The reality is that lives are taken needlessly by careless cops. It is not for me to come up with a better way to do it. My inexperience in the method does not preclude me from criticising the outcome. It is notable that in neither instance I cited the police failed to produce their own photo recording of the event. That would safeguard the police from criticism if they acted properly and it would motivate them to act properly. When cops kill without independent witnesses something is terribly amiss. These two events are egregious and cannot be glossed over by an irrelevent training video. Where are the reports from Internal Affairs? Conspicuously absent.

MasterCaneman -> RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter? (7/30/2013 7:03:43 AM)
This is an interesting thread, and I'd like to inject a little sanity into it. First off, let me inform those who don't know already that I am a CCW holder and have some police training (albeit a long time ago). I'm a member of a club that has a dedicated PPC team and the membership includes LEOs from four different local agencies. First off, I'm as concerned as anyone over the militarization of police. This is as much a result of having a good number of returning vets joining the local police forces as it is the wholesale distribution of military-grade hardware and the influence of popular media. That being said, I've talked with a few of the cops in my club, and when they're in civvies they tend to be more normal than when on patrol. We all know about the 21 foot rule, and in my opinion, it's valid. A lot of them don't trust the non-lethal weapons they're allowed to carry because they all have serious limitations when used on people with mental issues, extreme narcotic intoxication, or sometimes just pure rage and adrenaline. Other weapons, such as nets or that goo-spray, are very expensive, take time to set up and employ, and a lot of times, they simply don't have the time to call in the fire department to 'hose the guy down', as another commenter mentioned. And they are trained to try to talk someone down, but there are times that simply isn't possible, especially if the subject is off in their own little world at the moment or their brain is fried on drugs, legal or otherwise. In many cases, you'll get a combination of mental illness, narcotic/alcohol intoxication, and whatever triggered the event. Call 'em thugs if you want, every cop I know just wants to go home after their shift breathing and with no new scars to talk about. If they have a person who is acting in an overtly threatening manner and forces their hand, they are trained to stop that person in the fastest and most effective way they can. Unfortunately, that sometimes means they have to shoot, and as a range officer, I know how quickly forty-one rounds can go downrange. There's a funny thing that happens when someone starts shooting-the others next to them hear it and start launching lead as well. And with a modern semi-auto, it's nothing to empty a magazine in a matter of seconds. And despite what some folks say, pistol ammo is really not that effective a killing took as they think. There are studies that show that upwards of 80% of all people shot by handguns survive their injuries (Shooting Voodoo), which points to this document, of which I can only find an abstract, as I am not about to buy a .pdf to prove a point. As for 'shooting the weapon out of their hand'. Utter bullshit. I've been a shooter since I was nine, a handgun shooter since I was twenty-one, and I've been around some very good shots. In the dark, with adrenaline going, all manner of extraneous stimuli (flashing lights, shouts, other people/officers), it would be nearly impossible to set up a shot like that without the subject's active cooperation. I'm sure before long someone will post the video of the sniper shooting a revolver out of that guy's hand, but that was in broad daylight after a prolonged standoff with a man who wasn't as emotionally distraught as this subject. They had ample time for snipers to set up and dial it in. Most cops I know are just able to qualify with their duty weapons. Some require follow-up training because they're not active shooters. Their sidearm is just another tool they have to carry on their belt. There was one patrol officer that required four tries to qualify in one year because he simply could not master the steps. In short, very few are capable of doing better than hitting center mass, especially in a stress situation. Hindsight is always 20/20, especially in a situation like this. On one side there will the people who cry that the cops are murderers because they shot him full of holes. On the other are people who know about the limitations of the tools at their disposal. Somewhere in the middle is the answer. I was looking for this quote by some cop years ago who was asked what the perfect weapon would be, and he responded with "One of those phasers from Star Trek, where you could dial it in from stun to kill with the twist of a knob" or something to that effect. Since they don't exist, they are forced to work with what they got at the moment.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter? (7/30/2013 8:10:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: One of the first things I learned after graduating from the academy, was that I was going to be in the midst of mentally disturbed, often angry, often resentful people on a daily basis. Some of them had guns. And that was before I went out on patrol... If you were not taught to approach a single subject armed with a knife on a quiet street with your gun unholstered and to the front and if you were not taught to remain at a safe distance then you graduated from the Academy of St. Teresa. Why is it that a hostage situation or a jumper can be stalled and talked down but a single knifer cannot? And were you taught to open fire at the "appearance of danger" as the grand jury approved? Seems doubtful. Vince. I think in the bolded part, he was referring to his fellow officers.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter? (7/30/2013 8:21:14 AM)
As I said, check the punch line. (Supervisors actually) quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: One of the first things I learned after graduating from the academy, was that I was going to be in the midst of mentally disturbed, often angry, often resentful people on a daily basis. Some of them had guns. And that was before I went out on patrol... If you were not taught to approach a single subject armed with a knife on a quiet street with your gun unholstered and to the front and if you were not taught to remain at a safe distance then you graduated from the Academy of St. Teresa. Why is it that a hostage situation or a jumper can be stalled and talked down but a single knifer cannot? And were you taught to open fire at the "appearance of danger" as the grand jury approved? Seems doubtful. Vince. I think in the bolded part, he was referring to his fellow officers.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter? (7/30/2013 8:26:55 AM)
So you are now claiming that the grand jury reached their decision without having any evidence whatsoever in front of them? That no IA reports were written? You don't have to 'prove' anything, you can make any whacky assertions you want... and refuse to back them up. Your choice. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Enjoy your internet tough guy armchair quarterbacking about how you would do it right (even though you haven't come up with a single answer that isn't unworkable), and simply handwave away the reality. The reality is that lives are taken needlessly by careless cops. It is not for me to come up with a better way to do it. My inexperience in the method does not preclude me from criticising the outcome. It is notable that in neither instance I cited the police failed to produce their own photo recording of the event. That would safeguard the police from criticism if they acted properly and it would motivate them to act properly. When cops kill without independent witnesses something is terribly amiss. These two events are egregious and cannot be glossed over by an irrelevent training video. Where are the reports from Internal Affairs? Conspicuously absent.

Lucylastic -> RE: Suicide by cop or manslaughter? (7/30/2013 8:28:51 AM)
we had one this week.... 18 year old shot on a streetcar brandishing a three inch knife this is one of the reports http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/07/30/sammy_yatim_critics_deplore_police_tactics_as_vigil_draws_hundreds.html As more than a thousand protesters stormed the downtown core Monday evening, watchdogs, mental health workers and city councillors all pointed to inadequate police training and called for a procedural overhaul following the shooting death of an 18-year-old teen — the third such death in as many months. On Monday, just before a vigil was set to start for Sammy Yatim, police confirmed the officer involved — a six-year veteran of the force, according to the Toronto Police Association — was suspended with pay. Police and the SIU are keeping the identity of the officer secret. Anger was palpable at the vigil Monday night that quickly became a massive protest. About a thousand people blocked lanes in a procession that stretched several blocks on Dundas St., moving from Dundas Square towards the site of the shooting near Grace St., confronting police officers who walked alongside and chanting “Justice for Sammy” and “Think before you kill!” As Yatim’s mother, Sahar Bahadi, sat down in the middle of the street at the place where her son was killed, the crush of protesters around her fell silent. Pointing at a picture of her son printed on one of many posters decrying his death, the frail woman spoke quietly: “Feel how afraid he was.” Yatim’s sister, Sarah, sat beside her mother, comforting her as both women sobbed. “I promise I’m not going to let this pass,” Sarah told the crowd. The SIU, which investigates incidents of serious injury or death involving the police, confirmed Monday that Yatim was shot multiple times by one officer on a Dundas streetcar just after midnight Saturday morning. Protesters spray-painted a blood-red number “9” at the spot where a video recorded nine gunshots fired. The SIU also confirmed the teen was Tasered. Spokesperson Monica Hudon could not confirm whether Yatim was Tasered by the same officer who shot him. The shooting — captured in dramatic bystander video that now has drawn more than 300,000 views on YouTube — has drawn sharp criticism from critics and the community, who say Blair must re-examine police procedure for confronting people in crisis. Video of the shooting(from outside the streetcar) http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/07/29/sammy_yatim_man_who_videotaped_shooting_recounts_harrowing_event.html We have far to many people getting shot by our cops in Toronto. n most of them get off.

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