Thoughts on taxes

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KenDckey -> Thoughts on taxes (2/15/2015 10:44:15 AM)
I believe we can all agree that the current tax system of the United States is not sustainable and is broken. There has been lots of debate on how to fix this problem - increase the taxes on the rich and business; value added, flat and fair taxation. Increase taxes - I don’t believe this is a viable option. When you increase taxes on the rich and business all you are doing is burdening the poor even more. To make up for their “losses,” they increase the price of goods and services to cover the increase in taxes. Value Added taxes - Value added taxes basically shifts the tax burden to point of sales business. It provides that you take the total amount of sales for a given period and reduce it by a percentage equal to the tax and pay it to the Treasury. Flat taxes - I believe this is one viable option. One tax rate (I believe the current thinking is somewhere around 17%) that covers all income. The rich can’t use their tax lawyers to find the loopholes that reduce their tax burden and the poor are going to pay taxes anyway to cover what the rich don’t pay. This option also eliminates the need for social security, capital gains, and other taxes. Fair taxes - The other viable option. This is a national sales tax on goods and services paid at the point of service. It prebates the poor up to the national poverty level to aid in their tax burden. When you have either a value added or flat tax system, when you walk into a store and negotiate your price of the goods and services being purchased, that is the price. No additional taxes added. Fair taxes add sales tax at time of purchase of the goods and services. Not a bad plan, but the rich don’t buy as much stuff as the rest of us (my opinion) expressed as a percentage of their gross income. I suggest that we change our tax code to a flat tax. Everyone pays their share. No exceptions. No deductions. No sliding scale payment scheme. No incentives. No tax season. It all comes out of our paycheck at the time we receive it and no papers to file. Everyone pays their fair share of the burden.

MercTech -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/15/2015 12:00:23 PM)
The opinion inside the beltway that the constituency are all idiots creates a lot of taxes that we are told are NOT taxes. i.e. Social Security tax, Medicaid tax, and the recent Health Insurance tax. If you track all the drop by drop bleeding that is done in taxes it can surprise you. Back in 1998; I tracked all the taxes I paid. 58% of my income was taken up in taxes. I'm afraid to check on what percentage I'm paying now.

bounty44 -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/15/2015 12:18:51 PM)
ken one of my major problems with taxes is (apart from that im a small government type of guy) that government is under no compunction, like private industry is, to use the tax dollars in an effective or efficient way. they have no competitors. but that said, of the options you mentioned, I prefer the flat tax. help me out though---when you mention it eliminates the need for social security tax, are you suggesting that because people would be able to keep more of their money, they would therefore be able to use it for retirement and the "need" for social security would disappear?

DesideriScuri -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/15/2015 12:27:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey I believe we can all agree that the current tax system of the United States is not sustainable and is broken. There has been lots of debate on how to fix this problem - increase the taxes on the rich and business; value added, flat and fair taxation. Increase taxes - I don’t believe this is a viable option. When you increase taxes on the rich and business all you are doing is burdening the poor even more. To make up for their “losses,” they increase the price of goods and services to cover the increase in taxes. Value Added taxes - Value added taxes basically shifts the tax burden to point of sales business. It provides that you take the total amount of sales for a given period and reduce it by a percentage equal to the tax and pay it to the Treasury. Flat taxes - I believe this is one viable option. One tax rate (I believe the current thinking is somewhere around 17%) that covers all income. The rich can’t use their tax lawyers to find the loopholes that reduce their tax burden and the poor are going to pay taxes anyway to cover what the rich don’t pay. This option also eliminates the need for social security, capital gains, and other taxes. Fair taxes - The other viable option. This is a national sales tax on goods and services paid at the point of service. It prebates the poor up to the national poverty level to aid in their tax burden. When you have either a value added or flat tax system, when you walk into a store and negotiate your price of the goods and services being purchased, that is the price. No additional taxes added. Fair taxes add sales tax at time of purchase of the goods and services. Not a bad plan, but the rich don’t buy as much stuff as the rest of us (my opinion) expressed as a percentage of their gross income. I suggest that we change our tax code to a flat tax. Everyone pays their share. No exceptions. No deductions. No sliding scale payment scheme. No incentives. No tax season. It all comes out of our paycheck at the time we receive it and no papers to file. Everyone pays their fair share of the burden. I'm all for a consumption tax. What I disagree with, when it comes to all the consumptive tax plans I've read about, is that there are no exemptions. If we allow exemptions for food (like we do now) and for charities (like we do now), I'd have no problem with that. While "the rich" might not spend as much of their income, as a %, that the poor do, is immaterial to me. Don't "the rich" spend more, overall? It might not be as high a % of their income, but it's a lot more than the poor. Plus, there are people out there whose income is spent on little more than food, making their income almost tax (at least consumption tax) free. People who (illegally) get their money tax free now wouldn't be able to stay untaxed, either.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/15/2015 12:28:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 ken one of my major problems with taxes is (apart from that im a small government type of guy) that government is under no compunction, like private industry is, to use the tax dollars in an effective or efficient way. they have no competitors. but that said, of the options you mentioned, I prefer the flat tax. help me out though---when you mention it eliminates the need for social security tax, are you suggesting that because people would be able to keep more of their money, they would therefore be able to use it for retirement and the "need" for social security would disappear? I think the idea behind the flat tax is to set it at a high enough rate that no other taxes would need to be levied. It's not that there wouldn't be a need for Social Security, but that the revenue from the flat tax would cover social security taxes (and medicare taxes), too.

bounty44 -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/15/2015 1:01:25 PM)
so desideri if I read that rightly, you're saying that social security taxes would be part and parcel of the flat tax rate at 17%? every time I read about a consumption tax, I can just envision a huge black market system for just about everything being created.

MrRodgers -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/15/2015 1:06:31 PM)
As usual your questions as to whether or not to enact any of these tax options...results in more questions. Congress has in no small way, adopted sort of an Orwellian approach to taxes in not so much always calling [it] something other than a tax but in offering various definitions of income or just how one arrived at that or profits and thus that becomes a 'different' tax even though...still a tax. Examples: Corporate tax. This is in the end still rather simple varying only in how one arrives at the final tax liability. There is that 35% top corp, tax rate but then there are those 1000's of loopholes. Some say about 1500 just since the great tax reform of 1986 which wasn't really all that much reform in the end. The result is some businesses paying at or about 35% and some paying...none...ZERO. Some even arrange for a refund and then there are carry-forward losses, something not enjoyed by all businesses and of course unheard of with personal taxes. There is the so-called capital gains tax some of which is short term some long term, the lack of it arising when long term is defined as...ONE year. Something even the most agreeable would find rather ridiculous. The idea of a person calling them a conservative and suggesting that one needs a tax incentive to invest in something simply bought and sold (capital gains) in some case more than twice the incentive of labor (income tax).....is NOT a conservative. The original 'conservative' idealism held that there should be NO tax on labor society's only real wealth, and a small tax on business. Then there are the transfers of wealth from business to the political class in exchange for such lack of fastidiousness in there attempts at what one might call...a level playing field, differing even within the business communities. "The richest or most powerful lobby...wins." Some businesses realize a large actual profit while showing a paper (for tax purposes) loss. That loss even though not a real loss...can be carried forward for what I think is still 3 years. Wouldn't it be a beautiful world if we could trust in our politicians to clean the slate and then...leave it clean ? I don't. Your options would be corrupted in one political cycle and there goes to whole neighborhood. BTW, as long as there is one, even Adam Smith favored a progressive income tax over a flat tax. He correctly rationalized that the income of the poor which was less secure and most all of it spent on food, clothing and shelter while the wealthy had income much steadier and more secure most of which was spent on luxuries.

NorthernGent -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/15/2015 2:30:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Some businesses realize a large actual profit while showing a paper (for tax purposes) loss. Curious about how this works in the US. I thought your Corporate Governance had improved after the Enron shambles. As with Enron, you could report anything providing the auditors were in on it and there was a complete failure of Corporate Governance. Furthermore, I'm not quite sure why anyone would want to report a loss when they'd made a healthy profit. Yes, of course you may save a few quid in tax, but that short term gain will be comfortably wiped out when investors review measures such as EBITDA when deciding whether or not to invest. There is tax planning of course, and smoothing your profits and tax cashflow to manage investor expectations, but assuming investors in the United States are interested in working capital I doubt they'd be pleased with a company which appears to be eating into cash and cash equivalents. Assuming the aim of the game is to present a growing business, growing in a sustainable fashion, then reporting a loss in order to save a few quid in tax makes no sense. The only possible scenario where to me there appears to be some value in it, is one in which the company is struggling to stay in business/pay its bills. In this scenario, what EBITDA says is the least of your worries as you need to save cash to keep your head above water. But, even then, you would need the auditors in on the scam.

joether -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/15/2015 2:47:16 PM)
The problem with taxes, is people approach it from the wrong angle. They look at it as a personal burden onto themselves. What would they do with that extra $500 in a year? Because that is simply $19 for a paycheck period (typically two weeks). What do we as citizens obtain with the revenue amassed? Quite a huge number of things. The last budget for 2015-2016 is about $3.1 trillion. Do you know what we buy for $3.1 trillion dollars? The answer is 'Just about Everything". Break it down to 31 units of $100 Billion, and then ask, "What does the government do with $100 Billion"? That answer falls into one of two things: A ) Jobs or B ) Material. Even then that is not the exact answer. Let's start with 'A', Jobs. The break down of jobs is generally heavily weighed towards the private sector. The public sector is the third group of 'jobs'. So what of the jobs created/maintain that are not private or public? Those are called 'Downstream Jobs'. Downstream jobs are created because the public and private sector need or want stuff. Cars, cloths, gas, food, movies, furniture, houses; are some examples of things purchased. And those are usually sold by employees hired by companies that do business with the public. The 'materials' from 'B' above for the government create additional jobs (creating raw materials, making items, packaging, and shipping). So we really have quite a number of jobs the US Government maintains. Many of these jobs are not 'low scale jobs' either. The defense industry is a big example of that. The government does business with just about every industry operating in the nation to one degree or another. So it is considered a 'good idea' to make sure the 'system' is not fucked around to hard. Any number of problems can emerge, including creating a recession. That said, figuring out how to pay for everything at a grand scale is not a piece of cake! that we have been doing it for decades does help us to some degree. Still, its important to watch what is purchased and debate the merits of those purchases. In a week and change, the Agriculture committe will put together a new bill. The question is whether SNAP will be attached to it. The question is: How much food is a 'decent amount' to keep Americans from starving? Obviously answering that question is not a simple solution. So, paying for all of this stuff becomes quite the question. We do not wish to place to high a burden on citizens nor companies; yet, helping Americans out of tough jams works to our favor. Quite a number of programs have been active through this last recession, that helped people cope with problems. I believe this had a direct effect on the crime rates experienced. Since crime rates did not rise during the recession, which it has in pay recessions.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/15/2015 2:47:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 so desideri if I read that rightly, you're saying that social security taxes would be part and parcel of the flat tax rate at 17%? every time I read about a consumption tax, I can just envision a huge black market system for just about everything being created. A "flat tax" is an income tax that is levied on everyone. Don't quote me on the 17%, but I think the rate is set so it includes those "other" taxes. The thing is, though, the black market has higher prices than normal markets. If the prices are still lower than the legal market + consumption tax, then there may be some incentive for an illegal market. I don't know if there could be an illegal market that supplies people the way the legal market does, though. But, the incentive for illegal markets is definitely something to think about. Thanks for bringing that up.

KenDckey -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/15/2015 3:27:13 PM)
I have a rental and report a loss every year. I rent it as a Section 8 so I don't get everything I possibly could, but I cover the majority of the expenses, especially the mortgage. I have an excellent renter and havn't raised the rent on it and he has improved the property value every year. I usually cover about 50% of the cost of the improvements (depends on the improvement) and he covers the rest. But I am lucky to have a good renter. Gotta say that my good renter doesn't help my property taxes LOL Section 8 doesn't provide me with tax incentives to cover some of my operating expenses. It does assure I get a paycheck every month tho. A Flat tax would simplfy my accounting tremendously. No more trying to figure out how to pay fewer taxes. Just pay my percentage.

bounty44 -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/15/2015 3:44:36 PM)
I don't think conservative and libertarian types would disagree with you in general but rather would disagree greatly in terms of "degree." I suspect most of us understand the need for taxes to provide for defense, the legal system, etc...but if you put a social/political mix of people in the same room and ask them what is the role of government and what should taxes support, you'd get wildly different answers. from the conservative and libertarian perspective, government on the whole does few things well such that the private sector, or private citizens, couldn't do better, and with less expense---so it peeves us to give more of our dollars to a wasteful, inefficient and oversized government.

joether -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/15/2015 3:45:12 PM)
This is tied to the previous post of mine on this thread. But wished to speak to KD directly on the thoughts. He did create the interesting thread; so credit should be given! quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey I believe we can all agree that the current tax system of the United States is not sustainable and is broken. There has been lots of debate on how to fix this problem - increase the taxes on the rich and business; value added, flat and fair taxation. The current tax system works. Its not a perfect system, but its far from unsustainable nor close to broken. There are parts that need addressing and fixing. That we hire individuals to use high level mathematics to figure out possible solutions to problems. We did it with the Military and NASA, why not the tax system? The ideas on how to fix the system are tailored for political football, rather than actually dealing with the issues of the tax system. Every side does it, and all are guilty of it. Since what is a 'fair tax' on one's income or wealth? Every person will give you a difference answer. I believe the answers will range from the totally selfish to the complete selfless. Some where in the middle is where we will find the 'right fit'. quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey Increase taxes - I don’t believe this is a viable option. When you increase taxes on the rich and business all you are doing is burdening the poor even more. To make up for their “losses,” they increase the price of goods and services to cover the increase in taxes. No one likes having their taxes raised. Lets just get that out there. We can all point fingers and blame each other to whom bought what, and that doesn't matter. This were purchased and things will be purchased. No one group (fortunately) holds a monopoly over the decision making process. There will be stuff to help each industry and the people directly and indirectly. Just because you dont use something, doesn't mean its no less important. But, it does come down to weighing the options. I for example, see things more compassionately towards my fellow Americans; so I would be in favor of those programs and systems that serve as a safety net or help reduce suffering. There are others that make Ebenezer Scrooge look like a philanthropist! Taxing the rich is a no brainer. They have gone two decades with lower effective taxes than the poor and the middle class; they have no excuses for paying the fair amount as everyone else. For companies being forced to pay a higher amount might place it with other expenses and thereby raise their prices. However, there is a strategy that has proven quite curious: eat the tax, maintain price or lower it. This creates....COMPETITION....between companies. That gallon of milk was $3.00. After the taxes to the businesses, one raises their price to $3.12 and the other eats the tax and sells for $2.98. Who sells out of milk and gets more customers (and profit)? But increasing taxes for the sack of increasing taxes should not be the reason. That if taxes are raised, its due to something directly that we as citizens decide is important by a democratic vote. Sooner or later, we'll have to deal with the huge debt. Blaming each other for who allowed what to grow is irrelevant. Putting together a plan to pay it off in like 15-20 years and a set tax increase to it, that nullifies itself after 15-20 years, maybe something we have to put together. quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey Value Added taxes - Value added taxes basically shifts the tax burden to point of sales business. It provides that you take the total amount of sales for a given period and reduce it by a percentage equal to the tax and pay it to the Treasury. When ever a rich person wants us to sign off on something, its a good reason to ask 'Why"? This tax system places a heavy burden on the poor and the middle class. Even with conditions and structure, I've never seen a 'value added' tax system that didn't screw the poor and to some degree, the middle class. The rich have no problem, as they can acquire materials either at a bulk rate (with easy storage) or purchase outside the nation and shipped here by private means. And there are many economic white papers to show this form of taxation as a primary means for a country's revenue stream does not work to well. Since what happens during a recession? Under this tax system, the country will hang in the 'economic runt' longer than the current tax system we have. How does that help us? It is used in many forms to supplement revenue to the nation's bank account, but holding it as a primary means would be unwise. quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey Flat taxes - I believe this is one viable option. One tax rate (I believe the current thinking is somewhere around 17%) that covers all income. The rich can’t use their tax lawyers to find the loopholes that reduce their tax burden and the poor are going to pay taxes anyway to cover what the rich don’t pay. This option also eliminates the need for social security, capital gains, and other taxes. I've seen twenty nine different 'flat tax' systems over the years. And perhaps twice that in variations. All of them are vague and the numbers on how the program works exactly are usually fluff. Many of them are sold to us as '5-9%' of gross income. The reality? You'll pay about 39-52% given circumstances. Or...we chopped the current budget not only in half but 3/4ths! And watch our entire economy take a nose dive straight into an economic depression for about a generation! That's not the 'liberal' in me screaming out, but rather, the 'old-school conservative'. These concepts are pushed onto a people that do not understand the fine mechanisms that make up the economy and the marketplace. Its very dangerous when people start pushing this stuff and either dont realize what they are babbling about; or know all to well. The first group I can understand as 'not educated enough on economics', the second group I call 'traitor'! Please, if you dont believe me, sit down and do the math yourself. Take these 'flat tax' schemes and do the numbers. You'll find two different values. The first value is what the individual is 'selling you'. The second value is 'reality', which unless you look at the big picture; is easy to miss. I understand the appeal of the flat tax, I sincerely do! It really is not a good idea. quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey Fair taxes - The other viable option. This is a national sales tax on goods and services paid at the point of service. It prebates the poor up to the national poverty level to aid in their tax burden. Fair taxes? Yeah there's an oxymoron if I ever heard one! What is fair, truly? Should the combat veteran whom lost a leg in combat pay as much as that nerd whom got 4.0 in college? Be careful with the 'fair tax' concept; it can....REALLY...rile people up around you. The 'sales tax' on goods and services work much like the 'value added taxes' above. There have been examples. All of them have screwed the poor in one way or another, while allowing a 'free ride' for the rich. Again, this is one pushed by the rich. And again, you should be asking "What does the rich have to gain from this"? People purchase things and a tax of some percentage is added to the final price. To the poor with few dollars, this really sucks. For the rich, they can usually get things in bulk and thereby gain a discount. To make either the 'Value Added' or 'Fair Tax' systems to work well, one would have to create quite a number of programs to help the poor out. You want to pay more for all that, than we do now? Getting less bang for the buck while we're at it? quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey I suggest that we change our tax code to a flat tax. Everyone pays their share. No exceptions. No deductions. No sliding scale payment scheme. No incentives. No tax season. It all comes out of our paycheck at the time we receive it and no papers to file. Everyone pays their fair share of the burden. I say leave the current tax system in place. Take a class at the local community college on how to understand and navigate things. If the college doesnt offer such a course, suggest it. It does help the poor and place more of the burden on the rich and the upper middle class. Unless of course things are shifted like the Bush Republicans did in 2000-2002... I've learned a few things in my life on 'everyone pays their share'. That there are people with serious and even crippling illnesses and injures. An that many people have no even an ounce of knowledge to effectively understand the situation(s) other Americans find themselves in. We have had discussions on this forum on Depression. Its shocking the amount of people that do not understand this illness. Likewise, circumstances land people in all sorts of positions in which 'pulling their share' is not easy or possible. I simply do not agree with your viewpoints. I find they lack compassion, knowledge, and consideration of reality. Yes the financial and economic burdens at the macro or micro levels always need to be considered; but what do we gain as a nation when we behave like assholes to each other? Rather than helping each other out of the shitty situations we sometimes find ourselves in?

kdsub -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/15/2015 4:01:40 PM)
There reaches a point where 17 percent of income will still make some choose between things like heat...food...and medicine. I am for the consumer tax with exceptions for certain items that are a necessity of life. This way waitresses and waiters for instance cannot cheat or at least do not have to... illegal aliens will pay tax... so will drug dealers...tourists...etc. Many people that do not pay now. In this system many government subsidies can be eliminated because the poor will not have to pay taxes on the necessities of life and have more real income. Butch

quizzicalkitten -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/15/2015 4:31:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether This is tied to the previous post of mine on this thread. But wished to speak to KD directly on the thoughts. He did create the interesting thread; so credit should be given! quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey I believe we can all agree that the current tax system of the United States is not sustainable and is broken. There has been lots of debate on how to fix this problem - increase the taxes on the rich and business; value added, flat and fair taxation. The current tax system works. Its not a perfect system, but its far from unsustainable nor close to broken. There are parts that need addressing and fixing. That we hire individuals to use high level mathematics to figure out possible solutions to problems. We did it with the Military and NASA, why not the tax system? The current tax system is busted. There should be no way that someone who pays in 1000 dollars in taxes gets an 11000 dollar tax refund. Theres no reason my tax rate should be 52% because well "you gotta pay your share" when someone elses rate is 6% I agree with the OP on a flat tax, and also suggest cutting a lot of bloat that requires the increased tax revenue. Does a person in congress really need to make 6+ figures when they only work half the year? Does the president really need to draw a salary while in office when everything is provided?

joether -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/15/2015 5:09:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten quote: ORIGINAL: joether This is tied to the previous post of mine on this thread. But wished to speak to KD directly on the thoughts. He did create the interesting thread; so credit should be given! quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey I believe we can all agree that the current tax system of the United States is not sustainable and is broken. There has been lots of debate on how to fix this problem - increase the taxes on the rich and business; value added, flat and fair taxation. The current tax system works. Its not a perfect system, but its far from unsustainable nor close to broken. There are parts that need addressing and fixing. That we hire individuals to use high level mathematics to figure out possible solutions to problems. We did it with the Military and NASA, why not the tax system? The current tax system is busted. It works just fine. Its not the fault of the tax system that you do not understand it and allow yourself to be dumb down by bullshit.... I understand it just fine. It has its problems, but nothing that some good thinking and engineering can not fix. quote: ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten There should be no way that someone who pays in 1000 dollars in taxes gets an 11000 dollar tax refund. Got a source? quote: ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten Theres no reason my tax rate should be 52% because well "you gotta pay your share" when someone elses rate is 6% Got a source? quote: ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten I agree with the OP on a flat tax, and also suggest cutting a lot of bloat that requires the increased tax revenue. Yes, the flat tax concept appeals to people with basic levels of education. How do I know that? I understand the tax code and you do not. Hence why your bitching about it. Ever notice that kid in your schooling whom always complained that the math was to hard and he or she would never have a use for it. Funny that later in life, they come across problems that could be solved with such mathematical knowledge. What you considered 'bloat' is a safety net to someone else. Unfortunately for you, we do not live in a dictatorship and with you as the dictator. We live in a Democratic Republic, in which the people elect people to represent them in Congress. An there are people that either need or could use a hand on things, that you disagree with (they are allowed to vote too!). I'm sure if I quizzed you long enough, I'd find something you would not like the government to remove. Then vote to have it removed. If you dont like it happening to you; why do it to others? quote: ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten Does a person in congress really need to make 6+ figures when they only work half the year? You forgot the benefits that come with that $174,000-223,500/year salary. That when they are not in session, they should be working on bills to present to the next session. Yes, reality is different from the fiction. And there have been threads about it. How much a Congressman makes and what they do with it, is...NOT...the subject of this thread. If it bothers your so much, perhaps make a thread about it. Then we can discuss the matter in-depth. quote: ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten Does the president really need to draw a salary while in office when everything is provided? It IS a government job. The matter has been previously voted upon. As with almost every other aspect as well. That you hate the current president is irrelevant to the subject matter being discussed. This is a thread about 'Taxes'. Started by Ken. I dont think he would like having you hijack his thread for your own petty issues with the President of the United States. Again, if it bothers you so deeply, perhaps create a thread separate from this one.

joether -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/15/2015 5:40:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub There reaches a point where 17 percent of income will still make some choose between things like heat...food...and medicine. I am for the consumer tax with exceptions for certain items that are a necessity of life. If your making $250,000/year and have problems with your taxes; you have some...SERIOUS...financial problems. Perhaps contacting an accountant will help you manage your funds better. They will help you create a budget. If you stick by this budget, the tax will not even be an issue. The people that have to weigh freezing and have food, or having medicine but going hungry, do not make $250,000/year. Many either make the minimal wage or lower in a month. That their problems can be significant and dreadful, even well beyond their means. Should they suffer because your to much a dick to be human? Do you enjoy knowing that your attitudes cause suffering on to your fellow Americans? quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub This way waitresses and waiters for instance cannot cheat or at least do not have to... illegal aliens will pay tax... so will drug dealers...tourists...etc. Many people that do not pay now. Your making an assumption that waiters and waitresses cheat and/or are dishonest. Try working one of those jobs, before you bash on the people. They typically put up with alot of crap, long hours, lots of sore limbs, just for the money. Got a source for this information? Or do you just hate having to be civil in a civilized land? I hate to break it to you, but illegal aliens, drug dealers and even tourists pay taxes. Some of those illegal aliens pay income taxes. Its a funny thing, bu the IRS does have things set up that one can voluntarily pay income taxes. Why the illegal alien would pay income taxes voluntarily is beyond you no doubt. Makes complete sense to me. But that's because I understand....WHY...they do it. Drug Dealers who walk into the convenience store, buy some gas for their truck, pack of smokes, and some goodies....PAYS TAXES. They pay on the gas they are pumping (local, state and federal), on the cigarettes (local, state, and federal), and depending on the state, taxed on some or all the other stuff they are purchasing. Or do you think they say "Hey man, I dont have to pay these taxes, I'm a drug dealer!"? Does it sound silly? Yes, because it IS a silly argument your making. Most tourists understand there will be taxes to pay in the area they are visiting. This could be someone from the other side of the state, across the nation, or another nation all together. They dont seem to have a problem with it. quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub In this system many government subsidies can be eliminated because the poor will not have to pay taxes on the necessities of life and have more real income. Yeah, if the problem was....REALLY...that simple; dont you think it would have been solved by now? I know your view of government is like the 'Keystone Cops', but frankly, even they would have solved the problem too! Many government subsidies exist precisely because of costs the poor must face are sometimes above their means; which are sadly basic level necessities to you or I. Heating for cold winters....costs money. Buying food....costs money. Getting shelter....costs money. And that is assuming the adult doesnt have children. The problems the poor faces, with children is amplified. When people do not understand the hardships the poor endures on a daily basis; it becomes insulting, having to inform them (the clueless) due to their ignorance when the time could have been better spent solving the poor's problems.

quizzicalkitten -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/15/2015 5:50:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether Blah blah blah blah blah.... my sister has 4 kids which means 1500 dollars per kid in deductions which is 6000 dollars She gets a head of house hold deduction, a day care something or the other, a home owners deduction, and the earned income credit. she paid in taxes 1029 dollars and recieved a 10953 dollar refund because of her multiple children, and other exclusions I havent done my taxes yet but per my w2 my 52 percent of my paycheck went to the various taxes. My sister pays about 6 percent total because of her children, my lack of children means I have a higher rate. Its not bad math, Its not because I have a basic education. Its because Im a Single person making a decent living who doesnt own a home. It makes my tax bracket start totally different then If I had children I understand the tax code, I understand there are loopholes and a shit ton of things that can be done to get various money back. That doesnt change the fact, that its busted. A Flat rate or consumption tax makes a lot more sense then a your a breeder you get a tax break that non breeders get tax code.

Kirata -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/15/2015 6:00:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: quizzicalkitten The current tax system is busted. It works just fine. Right now our tax system is badly broken ~Fixing a Broken and Unfair Tax System, Senate Budget Committee Republicans and Democrats agree the American tax system is too complicated, unfair, and is hurting economic growth ~Chairman, Senate Finance Committee Congress is determined to fix the broken tax Code, even if it has to do it one provision at a time ~Forbes K.

KenDckey -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/15/2015 6:57:24 PM)
I love the discourse and exchange of ideas and thoughts. Please Keep them coming.

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