RE: Thoughts on taxes (Full Version)

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Kirata -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/23/2015 10:04:01 PM)


~ FR ~

I don't know if this idea has been discussed, but my skim of the thread missed it so I'll toss it in...

There are two points that I think require consideration in the tax code. Firstly, money makes money, and secondly, money is power. The influence that multi-billionaires can bring to bear on governments and society is beyond reason. You can't have a government of the people, by the people, and for the people when you allow excessive power to accumulate in unelected hands.

So I favor a progressive tax, but not like the one we have now. I think our tax-rate curve turns up too soon and peaks too low. I would suggest that it should be flat out to maybe $1 million in today's dollars, let's say at 15 or 20 percent for argument sake, rising 5% on income over $1 million, 5% again on income over $5 million, and an additional 5% on every additional $5 million up to a maximum tax-rate of 95%.

In other words, a hockey-stick curve. That kind of progressive tax doesn't penalize people for improving their situation to a comfortable level, but it does suppress excessive accumulations of wealth and power in un-elected hands.

With regard to deductions, costs of doing business should apply to everyone. You need a body to work. A body requires fuel, maintenance, shelter, and transportation. So your first maybe say $15 thousand of income would not be taxable, and all medical expenses would be deductible in total.

Just spit-balling here.

K.




Kirata -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/23/2015 11:08:26 PM)


Another factor to consider with regard to tax rates is other sources of income. Tariffs, for example. I view "free trade" as nothing more than theft. There is no evidence of which I'm aware, for example, that Chinese workers are much better off for all the trade money flowing into the country. All we've done is create a lot of new Chinese millionaires, and reward American companies for shipping jobs and production overseas.

I'm talking about economically appropriate, not punitive, tariffs. When low-wage foreign countries start improving workers' well-being by paying them more, their increased costs would trigger an adjustment in the tariffs. That creates a choice between paying their workers more and improving their well-being, or paying us. They can take their pick. Instead, we're feeding a growing class of fat cats on the backs of American workers.

K.






KenDckey -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/24/2015 1:14:12 AM)

Kirata

Your progressive flat tax isn't to bad an idea. It is definately one possibility.

I agree and disagree on free trade. I don't think there is one correct way to do it. I was in one country where there was no tarrif on the import of a vehicle and the repair parts had a 50% tariff. No one had an American vehicle. Lots of Fiat 500's tho.

For various reasons, American's produce goods at a higher price than lots of foreign countries. At the same time, American's produce better quality goods than lots of foreign countries. We do a tariff they do one (increases the cost of the item). no win situation.




Kirata -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/24/2015 1:25:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I agree and disagree on free trade... We do a tariff they do one (increases the cost of the item). no win situation.

Okay, but don't you think that nobody winning is better than them winning and us losing?

K.





KenDckey -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/24/2015 1:33:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I agree and disagree on free trade... We do a tariff they do one (increases the cost of the item). no win situation.

Okay, but don't you think that nobody winning is better than them winning and us losing?

K.




LOL I try to always figure out a way to win. LOL Not always possible, but I try. LOL




Kirata -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/24/2015 1:39:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

LOL I try to always figure out a way to win. LOL Not always possible, but I try. LOL

Tell me about it! [:D]

K.




KenDckey -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/24/2015 5:19:42 AM)

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/whats-a-fair-tax-rate-it-depends/

Interesting article. Europe pays more taxes than us it appears. Seems like,at least to me, they are taking the side that it isn't fair.




MrRodgers -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/24/2015 4:36:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
Well, Des...except for the dollar ("basis") you're correct.
In inherited properties, the asset is inherited at the new (current value) basis....what it was worth on the day when the previous owner (Dad/Grampa) no longer had control which, as some may not know is...the second (death) when he relinquished control of said asset via his demise.
2 bucks....12 katillion.....none of the basis matters on inherited stuff (just went through it...got it all dialed in).
I spent 3 months trying to figure out the basis (what he paid)...in the end...the feds don't care what he paid...it's all about current value (what did I know?).
Basis doesn't come in to play. Ever.
Unfortunately, the inheritors will pay 55% (federal) over and above values that exceed 5 million (I think that's been indexed....not sure), and in some states (Washington is one) you also pay an additional graduated (up to 19.77%) tax on the first 2 million.
It is pure thievery.

Except that one of the things the President wants to change is that basis value. Inherited assets would carry the basis value from the now-passed to the inheritor. That's not current law, but he wants it to become current law.

Interesting....I hadn't heard that. No surprise eh?


http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-brain-trust/013015-737288-obama-proposes-highest-estate-tax-rate-in-world.htm



Thanks Des....read it....absolutely crazy and "If the tax were to ever get this high, most family businesses would have to be sold at the time of death in order to pay the taxes owed...." makes my point entirely.

I know that most don't generally inherit those kinds of dollar amounts, making agreement on a no Estate tax issue all the more difficult but....what most don't grasp (which the link covers so well) is.....this is where it will start.....

(It never ends where it starts).

Except that what you guys seem to be saying...is not true. As it is and has been for decades, much of inheritance and almost all of capital gains tax has been almost nothing.

First, the estate tax doesn't even kick in until almost $12 million for a couple and spouses don't pay any only children if both spouses are deceased or have been divorced.

Then we see that "Hundreds of billions of dollars escape capital gains taxation each year because of the 'stepped-up' basis loophole that lets the wealthy pass appreciated assets onto their heirs tax-free,"

Then we see Obama trying to raise these taxes by closing loopholes and 99% is paid by the 1%ers and 80% of the tax is paid by the richest 1/10 of 1%.

The repubs are already claiming this tax will hurt...virtually everybody. Wrong.

The sale of family businesses almost never occurs to pay estate taxes.

HERE

Plus I am more than sick and tired of those that when it suits them, compares our fiscal and economic policies with anywhere in Europe.

Can't do that until after we have a single payer national health care regime, Guaranteed 4 weeks paid vacation, guaranteed maternal leave and that's just for starters. Only then...will I listen to such comparisons.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/24/2015 6:55:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Another factor to consider with regard to tax rates is other sources of income. Tariffs, for example. I view "free trade" as nothing more than theft. There is no evidence of which I'm aware, for example, that Chinese workers are much better off for all the trade money flowing into the country. All we've done is create a lot of new Chinese millionaires, and reward American companies for shipping jobs and production overseas.
I'm talking about economically appropriate, not punitive, tariffs. When low-wage foreign countries start improving workers' well-being by paying them more, their increased costs would trigger an adjustment in the tariffs. That creates a choice between paying their workers more and improving their well-being, or paying us. They can take their pick. Instead, we're feeding a growing class of fat cats on the backs of American workers.
K.


http://www.businessinsider.com/china-vs-us-manufacturing-wages-2014-3

[image]http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/532ccb18eab8eadc39f33da6-1004-667/screen%20shot%202014-03-21%20at%207.15.35%20pm.png[/image]




Kirata -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/24/2015 7:43:15 PM)


Real wages, however, are a different matter...

The current annual inflation rate in China, as of 2014, is 3.00% ~Source

The money they're raking in isn't going to workers' wages, it's going here:

China announced on Wednesday that it would increase its military budget for 2014 to almost $132 billion, a 12.2 percent rise over last year... In 2013, China’s defense budget increased by 10.7 percent over the previous year. The country’s military spending is the second largest in the world... The buildup of the People’s Liberation Army, which also includes navy and air force branches, is considered by many analysts to be consistent with the size of China’s economy ~NY Times

K.





KenDckey -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/25/2015 5:49:34 AM)

China is playing catchup. russia is rearming according to reports. All the while we are disarming. Makes me wonder about budget priorities.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/25/2015 3:14:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Real wages, however, are a different matter...
The current annual inflation rate in China, as of 2014, is 3.00% ~Source
The money they're raking in isn't going to workers' wages, it's going here:
China announced on Wednesday that it would increase its military budget for 2014 to almost $132 billion, a 12.2 percent rise over last year... In 2013, China’s defense budget increased by 10.7 percent over the previous year. The country’s military spending is the second largest in the world... The buildup of the People’s Liberation Army, which also includes navy and air force branches, is considered by many analysts to be consistent with the size of China’s economy ~NY Times
K.


Mfg. Wages have more than doubled in that 5 year period. Inflation is 3%/yr. I'm thinking real wages, then, are still going up pretty well. The article mentions wages (not real wages) going up 18% annually (at the time of the article). But, 18%>3%, so....

If manufacturing wages are going up, what matter is it that military spending is going up, unless tax rates have also increased to sop up all those higher wages.




KenDckey -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/25/2015 5:34:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Real wages, however, are a different matter...
The current annual inflation rate in China, as of 2014, is 3.00% ~Source
The money they're raking in isn't going to workers' wages, it's going here:
China announced on Wednesday that it would increase its military budget for 2014 to almost $132 billion, a 12.2 percent rise over last year... In 2013, China’s defense budget increased by 10.7 percent over the previous year. The country’s military spending is the second largest in the world... The buildup of the People’s Liberation Army, which also includes navy and air force branches, is considered by many analysts to be consistent with the size of China’s economy ~NY Times
K.


Mfg. Wages have more than doubled in that 5 year period. Inflation is 3%/yr. I'm thinking real wages, then, are still going up pretty well. The article mentions wages (not real wages) going up 18% annually (at the time of the article). But, 18%>3%, so....

If manufacturing wages are going up, what matter is it that military spending is going up, unless tax rates have also increased to sop up all those higher wages.


Just speculating but that is probably the case.




MrRodgers -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/25/2015 7:12:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

China is playing catchup. russia is rearming according to reports. All the while we are disarming. Makes me wonder about budget priorities.

The US defense budget has come down from around $600 billion or higher than at anytime in history, Vietnam war or cold war, to about $500 billion equal to the height of the cold war,

Where is it we are disarming...ending two real hot wars ? Well, you'll have that.




KenDckey -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/25/2015 7:32:39 PM)

Our end strength is somewhere around pre WWII strength now. That is disarming to me.




Kirata -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/26/2015 12:57:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

Mfg. Wages have more than doubled in that 5 year period. Inflation is 3%/yr. I'm thinking real wages, then, are still going up pretty well. The article mentions wages (not real wages) going up 18% annually (at the time of the article). But, 18%>3%, so....

I interpreted the chart you posted as showing wages rising by a little over 2% between 2007 and 2012 (the vertical axis wasn't labeled). But I still have to wonder. Doubling the wages of someone earning $50 a month is not much of a wowza. That said, though, fair enough. I'll keep an open mind.

K.





DesideriScuri -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/26/2015 1:31:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Mfg. Wages have more than doubled in that 5 year period. Inflation is 3%/yr. I'm thinking real wages, then, are still going up pretty well. The article mentions wages (not real wages) going up 18% annually (at the time of the article). But, 18%>3%, so....

I interpreted the chart you posted as showing wages rising by a little over 2% between 2007 and 2012 (the vertical axis wasn't labeled). But I still have to wonder. Doubling the wages of someone earning $50 a month is not much of a wowza. That said, though, fair enough. I'll keep an open mind.
K.


While the vertical axis wasn't labeled, it was noted that both wages were indexed to 1 initially. So, it going from 1 to 2.5-ish...

I can see how it could have been seen as the yearly % increase, though.

But, if you were making $25/whatever, wouldn't $50 be quite an increase? I understand that $25 increase isn't going very far, in the US, but we aren't talking about the US, either.

https://www.ventureoutsource.com/contract-manufacturing/2011-china-manufacturing-hourly-labor-rate-compensation-costs-ems
    quote:

    Though manufacturing workers in China are earning more than ever before, average hourly compensation costs were only $1.36 in 2008.

    quote:

    The published data on average weekly hours worked in China’s urban manufacturing sector at the beginning of November each year show a decrease from 50.4 hours per week in 2006 to 47.9 hours per week in 2008.
    Meanwhile, hourly compensation growth rates in China’s manufacturing sector have been rising steadily, and comparatively quickly.
    Consider that, from 2002 to 2008, hourly labor costs in the manufacturing sector in the United States increased by 19%, while the corresponding figure in China grew 100%.
    Three reasons for rising China compensation costs
    One reason for rising manufacturing labor compensation costs in China the report highlights is the rising literacy, numeracy, and educational attainment of even unskilled and semi-skilled Chinese employees from rural as well as urban areas, and even greater increases in the human capital embodied in skilled workers and high-talent employees.
    ...
    Another reason for the surging cost of labor in Chinese manufacturing today is a new employment contract law (also called a labor contract law) that came into effect in 2008.
    The law gives workers the right to have a signed labor contract, protects the working conditions and timely payment of wages to employees, limits overtime work, requires payments to compulsory social insurance schemes for employees, and makes it much more difficult to fire workers.
    ...
    A third reason for rising compensation costs in China is the growing shortage of workers.


Certainly, the wages are lower than they are in the US, but they are going up. The article also mentioned a child labor (labor by people 0-14 years old) lower than expected for a developing economy.






MrRodgers -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/26/2015 3:13:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Our end strength is somewhere around pre WWII strength now. That is disarming to me.

What is planned and has not yet happened, is a reduction in the size of our Army only and the elimination of 1 air wing...hardly disarming when we are leaving two wars.

Our budget will still be more than the next 12 largest western defense budgets combined. We are increasing defense spending in the last defense budget and mostly in security and cyber warfare.

Any reduction in actual military fighting personnel is a reflection of not needing them and fighting one war at a time if need be.

BTW, during all of this, the US has flown 2000 (air) sorties over Syria and ISIS stopping them in their tracks and likely setting up a Kurdish/Jordan/Saudi/Iraqi offensive to reduce them to a band of thieves.







DesideriScuri -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/26/2015 5:44:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Our end strength is somewhere around pre WWII strength now. That is disarming to me.

What is planned and has not yet happened, is a reduction in the size of our Army only and the elimination of 1 air wing...hardly disarming when we are leaving two wars.
Our budget will still be more than the next 12 largest western defense budgets combined. We are increasing defense spending in the last defense budget and mostly in security and cyber warfare.
Any reduction in actual military fighting personnel is a reflection of not needing them and fighting one war at a time if need be.
BTW, during all of this, the US has flown 2000 (air) sorties over Syria and ISIS stopping them in their tracks and likely setting up a Kurdish/Jordan/Saudi/Iraqi offensive to reduce them to a band of thieves.


Don't forget the "Draconian" sequester cuts. [8|]




bounty44 -> RE: Thoughts on taxes (2/27/2015 1:51:00 PM)

folks I haven't been following the thread and so I know I am dropping in kinda cold here (I apologize for that) but maybe with some things worth saying. I normally don't watch Hannity on fox, but last night he was at cpac and ended up interviewing all 4 of the people (and a 5th) who are my favorites for the next presidential race.

if I am remembering rightly, when asked about his first five agenda items as president, one of the things ted cruz said was, abolish the IRS.

ben carson (who's not in my top 4) said he would be all for a flat tax rate starting at 15% and then over years, working its way down to 10%.

for what its worth here---I wish ted cruz would have been a little bit less rambunctious and more measured in his approach, though I still liked him, and I was very impressed with scott walker, bobby Jindal and rand paul.




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