RE: Trump pardoning Arpaio (Full Version)

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vincentML -> RE: Trump pardoning Arpaio (8/26/2017 8:10:52 AM)

quote:

Another difference between conservatives and "liberals" - Obama freed terrorists, while Arpaio patrolled the border doing Obama's job of keeping potential terrorists and other criminals out


Too bad you can't argue the point of this thread without making some unwarranted comparison to Pres. Obama and the issue of terrorists. In the eight years that Obama was president we were protected from foreign terrorists. What was going on with this sheriff in Arizona is that he was massively picking up brown skinned people and throwing them into his concentration camp if they were not carrying proof of citizenship. In other words, he was enforcing federal law by profiling, and he had no business enforcing federal law.

As I said earlier, this is just another example of Trump's disdain for our institutions. As a candidate or as president he has picked fights with our intelligence services, with the House and the Senate, with our Courts, and with most of the institutions that work to apply the rule of law. If the rest of the nation were asleep Trump could easily become a dictator. Because that's how fascism works.

Trump's very low satisfaction ratings under 37% show that at least 63% of the population is aware of the importance of the rule of law in our country and in any democracy.




Nnanji -> RE: Trump pardoning Arpaio (8/26/2017 8:22:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Another difference between conservatives and "liberals" - Obama freed terrorists, while Arpaio patrolled the border doing Obama's job of keeping potential terrorists and other criminals out


Too bad you can't argue the point of this thread without making some unwarranted comparison to Pres. Obama and the issue of terrorists. In the eight years that Obama was president we were protected from foreign terrorists. What was going on with this sheriff in Arizona is that he was massively picking up brown skinned people and throwing them into his concentration camp if they were not carrying proof of citizenship. In other words, he was enforcing federal law by profiling, and he had no business enforcing federal law.

As I said earlier, this is just another example of Trump's disdain for our institutions. As a candidate or as president he has picked fights with our intelligence services, with the House and the Senate, with our Courts, and with most of the institutions that work to apply the rule of law. If the rest of the nation were asleep Trump could easily become a dictator. Because that's how fascism works.

Trump's very low satisfaction ratings under 37% show that at least 63% of the population is aware of the importance of the rule of law in our country and in any democracy.

A couple of things just not quite right with what you've said here.

I don't think Trump's approval ratings have much to do with the rule of law so much as the obvious main stream media bias.

Arpaio didn't round up anyone. He instructed his Deputies to consider whether or not a person may be illigal while they performed their regular duties. Of course the left can stretch that into rounding up.

He didn't throw anyone into a concentration camp. He was sued more than once by lefties saying his tent jails were concentration camps and won every lawsuit against him because the tent ails were exactly how out military were living in Iraq, Afghanistan and other ME countries. What was good enough for our troops was good enough for criminals.

I guess you can say it was a violation of prisoners rights to have their underwear dyed pink to stop them from stealing them. That seems just about the absurdity level this argument has.

Oh, and where do you get the claim that any law enforcement officer shouldn't enforce any law, federal or not? Should a local sheriff, for instance not enforce state drunk driving laws because they aren't adopted by the county in which he was elected. Or perhaps he shouldn't pay attention to federal ATF gun laws or drug laws?




BoscoX -> RE: Trump pardoning Arpaio (8/26/2017 8:38:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Trump's very low satisfaction ratings under 37% show that at least 63% of the population is aware of the importance of the rule of law in our country and in any democracy.


Polling also proves that Hillary is inevitable

+12 in every swing state

Polling also proves that you can put your trust in the alt left news media to report fairly and accurately




Real0ne -> RE: Trump pardoning Arpaio (8/26/2017 8:39:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Another difference between conservatives and "liberals" - Obama freed terrorists, while Arpaio patrolled the border doing Obama's job of keeping potential terrorists and other criminals out


Too bad you can't argue the point of this thread without making some unwarranted comparison to Pres. Obama and the issue of terrorists. In the eight years that Obama was president we were protected from foreign terrorists. What was going on with this sheriff in Arizona is that he was massively picking up brown skinned people and throwing them into his concentration camp if they were not carrying proof of citizenship. In other words, he was enforcing federal law by profiling, and he had no business enforcing federal law.

As I said earlier, this is just another example of Trump's disdain for our institutions. As a candidate or as president he has picked fights with our intelligence services, with the House and the Senate, with our Courts, and with most of the institutions that work to apply the rule of law. If the rest of the nation were asleep Trump could easily become a dictator. Because that's how fascism works.

Trump's very low satisfaction ratings under 37% show that at least 63% of the population is aware of the importance of the rule of law in our country and in any democracy.



pro·fil·ing
ˈprōˌfīliNG/
noun
noun: profiling

the recording and analysis of a person's psychological and behavioral characteristics, so as to assess or predict their capabilities in a certain sphere or to assist in identifying a particular subgroup of people.


what case can be made about ANYTHING without some level and degree of profiling vince.

was he profiling for the purpose of race or illegal activity?

on the other hand you cant just stop someone because they are mexican or whatever, but you can stop someone who looks like a pimp or drug dealer.

remember the measuring stick today is no longer probable cause, its probable suspicion, brought about in violation of the constitution by your liberal courts

so edumacate us on the RULE OF LAW.



sus·pi·cion
səˈspiSHən/
noun
noun: suspicion; plural noun: suspicions

1.
a feeling or thought that something is possible, likely, or true.




bounty44 -> RE: Trump pardoning Arpaio (8/26/2017 8:47:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Trump's very low satisfaction ratings under 37% show that at least 63% of the population is aware of the importance of the rule of law in our country and in any democracy.


Polling also proves that Hillary is inevitable

+12 in every swing state

Polling also proves that you can put your trust in the alt left news media to report fairly and accurately


the incredibly outlandish and unsupportable "if this, then that" assertion is a good one too.





Musicmystery -> RE: Trump pardoning Arpaio (8/26/2017 8:55:28 AM)

nm. waste of pixels.




Lucylastic -> RE: Trump pardoning Arpaio (8/26/2017 8:58:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji


quote:

ORIGINAL: bostonpolarbear


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

He violated constitutional rights, he is a racist pig, and trump is giving him a pass...
who is surprised,



His crime was enforcing the laws that Obama refused to enforce....



When did violating constitutional rights become "the law".

Pardons are for mercy or for those who were treated unfairly by the law. Arpaio was a sheriff, whose duty was to follow the law, who *unfairly treated" others by using "the law" illegally.

. . .



Arpaio didn't violate anyone's constitution rights. He violated the far left's sense of hate. In your world when a Deputy Sheriff pulls over a Latino who can't speak English and has no drivers license he should let that guy go or it's racist hate. It's not in mine.

yes, he did

He violated constitutional rights, he is a racist pig, and trump is giving him a pass...
who is surprised,




kdsub -> RE: Trump pardoning Arpaio (8/26/2017 9:01:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

In my opinion he was a great sheriff and deserved a pardon. Right on Mr. President.



Sooo.... making people wear pink undies... having them live in tents in sweltering heat is your idea of law?

As far as the rest goes right or wrong we must all follow the laws of the land. If every sheriff can decide on his own what the law is then we will have anarchy. Trump has given another signal to racists that it is ok to flaunt the law... he will have their backs... until it is no longer politically advantageous anyway.

Butch





BoscoX -> RE: Trump pardoning Arpaio (8/26/2017 9:09:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

In my opinion he was a great sheriff and deserved a pardon. Right on Mr. President.



Sooo.... making people wear pink undies... having them live in tents in sweltering heat is your idea of law?

As far as the rest goes right or wrong we must all follow the laws of the land. If every sheriff can decide on his own what the law is then we will have anarchy. Trump has given another signal to racists that it is ok to flaunt the law... he will have their backs... until it is no longer politically advantageous anyway.

Butch




Arpaio treated everyone the same, didn't single people out by race for pink undies or tent cities (which our troops live in tent cities in the Middle East) so your claim of 'racism' is ludicrous

His crime, was enforcing the law that Obama swore to uphold, but didn't. Leftists want open borders, President Trump is the voter response to their reckless disregard for border security and their contempt for the voting public




kdsub -> RE: Trump pardoning Arpaio (8/26/2017 9:11:27 AM)

Lucy.... you should know... the Constitution only applies to Trump Republicans.... and racists.... same thing it seems i guess.

Butch




kdsub -> RE: Trump pardoning Arpaio (8/26/2017 9:13:22 AM)

Oh so its a lie?... he didn't make people wear pink undies?... he didn't make them stay in tents... he did follow the judges instructions to the letter? well then that changes everything.

Butch




Nnanji -> RE: Trump pardoning Arpaio (8/26/2017 9:22:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

In my opinion he was a great sheriff and deserved a pardon. Right on Mr. President.



Sooo.... making people wear pink undies... having them live in tents in sweltering heat is your idea of law?

As far as the rest goes right or wrong we must all follow the laws of the land. If every sheriff can decide on his own what the law is then we will have anarchy. Trump has given another signal to racists that it is ok to flaunt the law... he will have their backs... until it is no longer politically advantageous anyway.

Butch



Dude, I dug ditches for twelve hours a day (well, we only worked ten hours on Saturday and had Sunday off) for a living in that sweltering heat. I poured concrete in that sweltering heat instead of steal stuff to make a living. I did that to pay for college. And because I did pay for college I very rarely could afford AC when I was home and not working out in the sun. Arpaio placed overflow prisenors in the tent cities based on what was available when they were arrested and it had nothing to do with race.

A lot of the jail issue underwear was stolen so Araio had them dyed pink and the theft stopped. Please show me where the constitution says that tighty whities are a right.




BoscoX -> RE: Trump pardoning Arpaio (8/26/2017 9:23:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Oh so its a lie?... he didn't make people wear pink undies?... he didn't make them stay in tents... he did follow the judges instructions to the letter? well then that changes everything.

Butch


If you calm down read what I wrote again, it's not what your fevered imagination is telling you that I wrote




Musicmystery -> RE: Trump pardoning Arpaio (8/26/2017 9:24:24 AM)

Before the flames start, I'm just sharing this, not embracing it. A distinction the usual suspects will ignore, I suppose.

Arpaio Pardon May Be Opening Act of a Constitutional Crisis

Trump's move Friday night shows the same disregard of the rule of law with which he's trying to quash the Russia probe.

Donald Trump’s pardon of Sheriff Joe Arpaio marks the real beginning of the coming constitutional crisis in America.

Trump started tweeting trial balloons about this a month ago —“all agree the US
— President has the complete power to pardon”– and he has even asserted the unlitigated idea that he can pardon himself. But what he did yesterday puts his presidency on a whole new plane: a Category 5 political hurricane. By pardoning a man convicted of criminal contempt for direct violation of a Federal order, Trump is now flaunting his eagerness to overturn the rule of law in America.

I have never seen anyone who has acted more obviously guilty than Donald Trump has almost every single day since he became president. From his tete-a-tete with James Comey, in which he asked the FBI director to end his investigation of Michael Flynn, to his firing of the same man when he failed to heed that warning, to his newly-reported phone call to North Carolina Senator Thom Tillis to complain about a bill that would protect special counsel Robert Mueller’s independence, the president has engaged in one blatant attempt to obstruct justice after another.

Here is the most logical way to view his pardon of Sheriff Arpaio: it is the latest and gravest step he has taken in his continuing efforts to undermine the rule of law. Obviously Trump delighted in fueling the racism of Arpaio’s supporters by pardoning this convicted criminal –he made that clear earlier this week during his repellent speech in Phoenix. But I am certain that is not the main reason for this heinous act.

For many weeks, Washington has been swirling with rumors that Mueller already has secured the cooperation of Michael Flynn and Paul Manafort in his investigation of the president. And Trump undoubtedly is more vulnerable to the testimony of these two men than he is to that of any other players in this fearful drama. Therefore, Trump must feel compelled to send this message through Arpaio’s pardon: the president is eager and willing to do the same thing for anyone who might be pressured into testifying against him.

I have a written a book about France under fascism, and what we are now experiencing is exactly what incipient fascism looks like. The combination of Trump’s relentless assaults on the free press, his open encouragement of Nazis — which is the only honest description of his initial refusal to condemn them — and now a pardon without even pretending to go through the normal channels of the Justice Department — these are all the acts of man who is blatantly defying his sacred pledge to uphold the Constitution of the United States.

Like the men and women of Vichy France who began their collaboration with the Nazis seventy-seven years ago, from now on, every senator and House member of either party who continues to remain silent about this president’s unconstitutional acts is directly complicit in the high crimes and misdemeanors of Donald Trump.

I know very serious students of American justice who already were convinced last night that the pardon of Arpaio has fatally undermined Robert Mueller’s investigation by killing the incentive for anyone to testify against this president. Personally, I am not yet that pessimistic. I still believe that any pardon of Flynn or Manafort or Jared Kushner will produce a large enough firestorm to end Donald Trump’s presidency, either through impeachment or the 25th amendment to the Constitution, which would allow his removal by a majority vote of his cabinet.

But if there is a majority of Republican senators and House members who wish to avoid a full-blown constitutional crisis worse than anything we have seen since the secession of the Confederate states, they must speak loudly and act clearly right now. They must immediately pass the bill introduced by Democratic Senator Chris Coons of Delaware and Republican Senator Tillis of North Carolina that would shore up the independence of the special prosecutor, and they must pass it with veto-proof majorities.

Senator Lindsay Graham already has said that the firing of Attorney General Jeff Sessions would mean the beginning of the end of Trump’s presidency. It is long past time for all of Graham’s colleagues in both houses to declare that the same thing will be true if the president dares to repeat the horrific abuse of his pardon power that we witnessed last night. Otherwise, America is destined for an era of violence and darkness unlike any we have ever witnessed since the end of the Civil War, one hundred and fifty-two years ago.

More: http://billmoyers.com/story/arpaio-pardon-may-opening-act-constitutional-crisis/




kdsub -> RE: Trump pardoning Arpaio (8/26/2017 9:27:14 AM)

Nnanji... so you only did it for a few years... I did it for 40...so what...damn... Here in Missouri...as Republican as they come... they do not put people in tents only because they are arresting against court orders... they don't make them wear pink undies just to humiliate them... they do follow the law... and if they have overflow they transfer them to other facilities... they are humane... even if Republicans....DUDE

Butch




jlf1961 -> RE: Trump pardoning Arpaio (8/26/2017 9:27:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub



Sooo.... making people wear pink undies... having them live in tents in sweltering heat is your idea of law?

As far as the rest goes right or wrong we must all follow the laws of the land. If every sheriff can decide on his own what the law is then we will have anarchy. Trump has given another signal to racists that it is ok to flaunt the law... he will have their backs... until it is no longer politically advantageous anyway.

Butch




The tents you are complaining about stood up against lawsuits as not being inhumane or violating rights, in point of fact, the only thing they had him on was the 'profiling' of Latinos as all being illegal, in a county and part of the country where illegal aliens of Latino ancestry are prevalent.

The point is that no matter who is pardoned by a president, some one or group are going to have a problem with it. Like the blanket amnesty given to cowards who went to Canada to avoid the draft.

And Bosco, not only his supporters but numerous international agencies had him listed as a political prisoner. So while the US screams about political prisoners in other countries, we have the nasty habit at not looking in our own prisons for those people that are considered political prisoners under internationally agreed to guidelines.

Personally, given the nature of his crimes, he should have been executed not stuck in prison, but that is my opinion.

And, when considering the number of 'political prisoners' and 'terrorists' that have been pardoned after getting trials that have not had a shred of impropriety found, one man is still in prison, after being convicted when even the federal prosecutor admitted that "we cannot prove he fired the fatal shots, we cannot even prove he held the weapon we think fired the fatal shots, but two agents are dead and someone has to pay."

Didn't matter that one man acquitted of the two murders confessed, during his trial even, that he knew for a fact bullets he fired hit at least one of the dead agents.

There are a few others languishing in American prisons with questionable convictions, white, brown, black and red, but their biggest crime is that they actually had valid points, to which the government did not want to admit to.




Musicmystery -> RE: Trump pardoning Arpaio (8/26/2017 9:30:17 AM)

A note from Bill Moyers: "This morning, I received an email from an old friend – one of the country’s top trial lawyers: 'I have underestimated Trump. He knows what is coming, including a variety of criminal charges and other impeachable offenses. He is not just arousing his base to anger but to arms, some of them. There is no other way to explain the transgender ban, the Arpaio pardon, his Charlottesville remarks…

'I would think he will pardon himself, family members, Michael Flynn and Paul Manafort, among others, and if he is angry enough, Mrs. O’Leary, who, you must admit, got kind of a raw deal.' [Note: Myth has it that one Kate O’Leary’s cow kicked over a lantern in the barn and started the Great Chicago Fire of l871. She was widely blamed but never charged.]

And the following post - 'Arpaio Pardon May Be Opening Act of a Constitutional Crisis' - came from the journalist and author Charles Kaiser. His books include 'The Gay Metropolis,' '1968 in America,' and 'The Cost of Courage,' a riveting account of one family that joined the French resistance against the Nazi occupation."

— Bill Moyers

https://www.facebook.com/moyersandcompany/posts/1856059461078723




Musicmystery -> RE: Trump pardoning Arpaio (8/26/2017 9:35:32 AM)

from News And Guts

Justice was not done. Joe Arpaio was yet to be sentenced for his crime. But that didn't matter to Donald Trump as he pushed a shiv through the heart of the American justice system. As Senator John McCain wrote, "The President has the authority to make this pardon, but doing so at this time undermines his claim for the respect of rule of law..". Trump also thumbed his nose at his own Justice department because there was no pardon review process, common in such matters.

But most important was the precedent this pardon set. Think Russia. Here's a must read from Michael Waldman, president of the Brennan Center for Justice at NYU School of Law, via New York Daily News.

Trump's pardon of Joe Arpaio is unpardonable

With Donald Trump, it's important to separate the outlandish from the outrageous.

His pardon of former Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, Ariz., is unpardonable. In many ways, it's worse than it looks.

On its merits, the pardon rebukes equal justice and the rule of law.

Arpaio is a notorious figure. He relentlessly pursued Latinos for years. The Sheriff even set up outdoor detention facilities that he bragged were "concentration camps."

He also dwelled on the racist conspiracy theory fringe. President Barack Obama's birth certificate, he once announced, was a "computer-generated forgery."

In 2011 a federal court ordered Arpaio to stop detaining people just because he suspected they were not citizens, a policy that plainly profiled and targeted Latinos. He routinely violated that court order. So he was convicted of criminal contempt of court earlier this year.

In his frenzied rally in Phoenix last week, Trump hinted broadly he might let Arpaio off the hook. Even so, he waited to act until the news would be drowned out by the roar of Hurricane Harvey.

To be sure, Trump does have a legal right to issue a pardon. The Constitution declares the President "shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment." But it still rings loud alarm bells, for a few reasons.

First, the crime. This was not mercy for some low level drug offender, say, who had served too much time. The President pardoned a public official who was found to have violated a court order that upheld the constitutional rights of minorities.

Once it was more common for presidents to issue pardons in contempt of court cases. A 1925 Supreme Court case even upheld the practice. But in recent decades, it has become seen to be a rebuke to the power and independence of the federal courts.

We've long worried Trump might trample judicial independence. Recall that last year, he loudly decried a federal judge in his own fraud case because the Indiana-born jurist was "Mexican."

But so far, as President, Trump's attacks on the courts were mostly just blustery tweets and words. He followed judicial rulings. Not this time. He has effectively stepped into a court case and said, "just ignore that pesky judge — you're free to go."

Chief executives long have backed the power of federal courts to uphold the U.S. Constitution. Think of Trump's Republican predecessor Dwight Eisenhower sending in troops to ensure that Little Rock, Ark., followed a school desegregation order. Ike would spin in his grave.

Second, the process. There was no review by the Justice Department. No recommendation for a pardon. It is hard to believe that the White House counsel signed off.

This undermines years of procedures followed by presidents of both parties. And it opens the way to wide abuse of the pardon power.

Recall that President Bill Clinton's pardon of fugitive financier Mark Rich in 2001 led to howls of protest and years of investigation. (I was a former senior Clinton aide, but I thought that pardon was a big mistake. But even there, the acting Attorney General gave the president the green light.)

If Republicans stay silent now, they will give hypocrisy a bad name.

There's a third reason this is alarming: it sends a semaphore signal to others. Abusive law enforcement officials will take note. So will aides and allies enmeshed in independent counsel Robert Mueller's investigation of Russia's interference in the 2016 election.

It shows that Trump might recklessly use the pardon power as a get-out-of-jail card for his friends and supporters. Just yesterday, word came of new subpoenas in the Russia probe. The audience for this pardon likely included people like Paul Manafort and Mike Flynn, former top aides facing pressure.

Just hold tight and keep your mouth shut, the message seems to be, and I'll take care of you. That's something we might expect from a crime boss or a tinpot strongman in some other country. It's not something we should ever want to hear from the Oval Office.

What can be done? Not much, likely, right away. Congress should consider writing into law the procedures to ensure that the pardon power is not abused, and to make sure the Justice Department plays its proper role.

There may be even bigger consequences. During the ratification of the Constitution, James Madison explained that abuse of the pardon power could be grounds for impeachment.

In the Watergate scandal, one of the counts of obstruction of justice being brought against Richard Nixon was that he dangled clemency before one of the conspirators in an effort to buy his silence. That was to save Nixon's skin, not just to pay off a political debt.

If Trump acts to pardon his allies in the Russia probe, calls for impeachment would grow to hurricane strength.

For now, we can raise our voices. Arizona's Republican Sen. John McCain had it right last night: this pardon of a lawless lawman "undermines [Trump's] claim of respect for the rule of law."

More: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/trump-pardon-joe-arpaio-unpardonable-article-1.3444461




kdsub -> RE: Trump pardoning Arpaio (8/26/2017 9:36:58 AM)

I agree...it makes no difference how many people and for what reason Obama pardoned someone...Each pardon stands on its own merit and for its own reasons and each should expect scrutiny. Show me an Obama pardon where an officer of the law was pardoned when ignoring the law. I did not agree with some of the pardons issued by Obama and said so... I sure as hell did not agree with his handling of the Ferguson affair. I call all abuses as I see them and this is one of the worse. Anyone, in my opinion, that defends Trump in this pardon is a racists plain and simple.

Butch





BoscoX -> RE: Trump pardoning Arpaio (8/26/2017 9:37:36 AM)


Must be hard work finding such rare far left howlers like Bill Moyers spreading blatant leftist propaganda against president Trump

How ever do you manage

/sarcasm




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