RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed?

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RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs&... - 10/6/2006 5:00:49 AM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

What would happen if you took a country, one that had pretty much every natural resource needed to survive, and closed its borders, and all of the economy, beginning to end, was kept in country? Could a high standard of living be maintained?

You've just asked the magik question. It's the question that the elites asked in ''Think Tanks'' many moons ago but didn't like the answer.

Just my opinion....

If the scenario you have posed were to happen in America, the logical eventual outcome would be that the gap between the masters and subjects would shrink - And the masters know that better than you, I or anyone.

That is definitely one of the reasons behind globalism. Globalism is the only way to make the gap larger between the masters and the subjects.

- R

Good morning, R. I hope you'll check back in on this.... I'm going to take that scenario a bit farther, but don't have time now lol. I'll try to come back to it this evening, or this weekend at the latest.

I might start a new thread on it, so's not to hijack this one.

'Morning, Level.

Take your time. Globalism and all the possible scenarios intertwined, is one of my favorite topics for discussion - So I'm not going anywhere.

- R

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

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RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs&... - 10/6/2006 5:12:17 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

A global economy has both good and bad points; it enables others around the world to have a better life.

In theory yes....but that is not the reality. The Mexican people -- especially those in rural economic industries --- have paid a horrendous price under NAFTA / globalism.

And the Chinese still serve their masters { any way you look at it} under a strict one-party-totalitarian-oligarchy - The average citizen might get to use a cell phone now and then or play a video game, but they are still slaves.

I guess you might be able to make a case that the average person from India might be doing a tad bit better, but I'd like to see the numbers before I totally agree.

quote:

What would happen if you took a country, one that had pretty much every natural resource needed to survive, and closed its borders, and all of the economy, beginning to end, was kept in country? Could a high standard of living be maintained?

You've just asked the magik question. It's the question that the elites asked in ''Think Tanks'' many moons ago but didn't like the answer.

Just my opinion....

If the scenario you have posed were to happen in America, the logical eventual outcome would be that the gap between the masters and subjects would shrink - And the masters know that better than you, I or anyone.

That is definitely one of the reasons behind globalism. Globalism is the only way to make the gap larger between the masters and the subjects.

- R

R, if that's their purpose then they are succeeding.
The "Middle Class" in this country is shrinking.

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Post #: 62

RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs&... - 10/6/2006 5:28:46 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LTRsubNW

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

OK, so in other words we're going to be perpetually lied to by our own govt. and there's nothing we can do about it?
Is that what you're saying?

You always seem to look for the extreme. It's this simple...jobs are going to leave this country if we can't produce the products that those jobs cause to happen, at a price that is at minimum equal to or less than those products can be produced elsewhere.

It's really pretty simple math.

If you want to argue about it...do it from a clean perspective. Throw away all the Tupperware that you own (because since 1987, 82% of all Tupperware was produced in Asian countries).

Oh, and...approx. 2 years ago they closed all their American production facilities and now produce all of their products in either Mexico or China (big stuff is produced in Mexico due to shipping, little stuff in China).

Make sure that you order ONLY Champion spark plugs...because they're the only ones produced in the United States, and have been since 1996. (And, by the way...your car DOESN'T have Champion spark plugs, nor has any car manufactured in the United States since 1994).

Absolutely don't buy gas, because barely 22% of that is produced in the United States...and most of that goes to the Government.

NEVER buy apples (Washington State, which produces 71% of the nations production, ships 76% of it's product to Japan and China)...43% of what you buy are grown outside the United States.

Jeans...most come from India.

That T-Shirt you wear in your photo...if you have even 5 T-Shirts in your collection...exactly 0% came from American Mills.

If you have a dress shirt...yep...India.

Your shoes...those are from Brazil. If you want more...those will come from Brazil (or Mexico, or China) as well.

So...if you feel the need to argue that the world is going to Hell in a handbasket, and that it's the fault of Democrats, Republicans, politicians in general, or even your current city council...be aware...the world is changing...where we produce products that are cost effective or desirable (currently software, airplanes...and as todays news would indicate...coffee stands), we'll do well...and where we don't, we won't...and the rest of the world stands ready to eat our lunch.

And so many, like yourself, are convinced enough to spend abundant effort to convince others of the "unfairness of it all"....

It ain't unfair Popeye...it ain't even a rotten deal.

It's simply the deal we've got and it ain't going away anytime soon.

The rules have changed, and the only way to beat the system is to do a better job than the other guy.

(And those that don't get that....won't get a seat at the table).

LTRsub, I think you're missing the point here.
The American People never wanted "NAFTA"
My Congressman lost his job because he voted for it.
And, it required a 2/3 vote in the Senate (67 votes) yet it only got 60 or 61 votes! Yet, somehow Clinton pushed it through.
In other words, it's illegal!
How many votes do you think it would get today?

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Post #: 63

RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs&... - 10/6/2006 6:00:26 PM

LTRsubNW

Posts: 1604
Joined: 5/6/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

LTRsub, I already "have my place at the table."
I make more being retired than a lot of people with degrees do

I'm so glad you do (have your place at the table), however, you were arguing for the greater "us", when you were on your soapbox. Had you been arguing for yourself (which of course, you would not have been...since you have achieved your station in life, as you've suggested), my retort would have been significantly different.

I'm even more glad (for you) that you "make more (retired) than" others...but that's really beside the point. (And I really am happy for you, as I'm sure many others are as well).

If you want to argue that the world sucks for you, please feel free to do so, however, you argued that the world sucks in general, and by virtue, that "Kennedy...that P.O.S." (and his ilk) is (effectively) messing up all that we know because they've held the collective consciousness for "over 40 years".

I actually don't disagree (somewhat), we probably need a "putsch" as you say...(I'd probably use different phrasing, but the genesis comes from the same source)...I've wondered in the past 6 years "at what point do good people say something..." and "am I just being paranoid, or is Bush (not making comparisions at all but...) an example of what Germans many years ago may have wondered (frog in the boiling water) 'have we crossed the line?'"

...and done nothing.

Have we reached that point? Are we about to be relegated to history?

Will the world be talking about us in 40 years, as we talk about Germany?

Something is giving me a twinge (and before you get overconfident Popeye...it ain't you).

My brother is a doom and gloom type. He's been telling me since the end of 1993 "This is it man....stock up on everything you can...."...and, you know....every week he sends me new emails (yes, really, every week since 1993) explaining rather clearly how, the end of the world is pretty much around the corner...not 'around the corner" like the Holy Rollers want us to believe ("within our lifetime")....but like, within a few months. The next few months.

And I pretty much tell him "Chill man...build a fence, put some money in the bank, get a few wireless cameras...it'll all be good". (Then of course, he educates me how the banks don't mean shit...etc...etc...)

..but...something tells me, we're getting pretty damn close to that shit.

(And no, I'm not expecting some climactic shit....but the truth is...{and I've been really fucking mellow over the last 20 some years}...it's getting a little freaky).

Just on the Northern edge of a "little too freaky".

So....Popeye...I think you run to the extreme 98+% of the time....but there are a few occasions where I think you may actually know what you're talking about (don't get cocky...it doesn't happen often).

< Message edited by LTRsubNW -- 10/6/2006 6:24:12 PM >

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RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs&... - 10/6/2006 7:48:53 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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LTR, I know I'm right about one thing; The American People didn't and don't want "NAFTA".

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RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs&... - 10/6/2006 7:55:57 PM

LTRsubNW