RE: Legalize Prostitution...........Now.

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meatcleaver -> RE: Legalize Prostitution...........Now. (12/28/2006 9:17:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Would you compare the legalization of drugs in Amsterdam similarly? Is there still a market for "street" drugs in Amsterdam? What about the association that is made in the US where "street crime" is linked to prostitution and the illegal drug trade? If there wasn't a dramatic positive effect in Amsterdam with the decriminalization of these "victim-less" crimes it would be contrary to the Libertarian position that decriminalization in the US would have the same impact as the repeal of prohibition regarding criminal activity. I think I am right in saying the philosophy here is not that legalising soft drugs and prostitution (These laws are complex and not all is technically legal though tolerated) on the surface stops problems but keeping as much of such activities on the surface enables the authorites to monitor the situation so there is a rational reason for such openess. Such openess does appear to work, if you compare Holland with Britain which has similar harsh laws to the US, less young people use drugs and there is less teenage pregnancy. In fact there is less drug use and sexual permissiveness all round from what I can tell even though sex is so much more in the open.

Stephann -> RE: Legalize Prostitution...........Now. (12/28/2006 9:48:03 AM)
Personally, I don't agree that gambling is in the same ballpark as prostitution. I have a strong personal dislike of gambling, but I think the same stance on regulation over prohibition is still the way to go. A woman still can't legally bet on a football game with the guy next to her on the street anymore than she can offer him a blowjob for $20. It's perfectly legal for the guy to fly to Nevada. It's also legal for them to place bets on internet gambling sites (for now) but personally, I'd -still- trust the bookie to pay out over the gambling site. The odds of winning a lottery jackpot (Roughly 1:14,000,000 for California) are far worse than getting a royal flush 1:649,740, making a casino more attractive to gamblers (though statistically more destructive to surrounding communities.) I take a similar approach to the decisive loss of our 'drug war' which has made the US appear both as oppressors and fools in our own backyard - our absolute inability to control the steady flow of drugs into the country won't be solved by any fence of any height, and the 2000+% profit margin on drugs (due to their illegality) has only helped make drug lords more powerful than oil sheiks. But these are arguments for different social ills that deserve their own thread, lest this become a convoluted 'how to fight evil' mess. The desire for the human psyche to engage in illegal behavior is underwhelming compared to the social gluttony we see with humans trying to point the finger at each other and say 'BAD BAD BAD I'm gonna TELLLLL MOMMMMYYYY on youuuuuuuu.' The fewer basic laws we have, the easier they are to enforce. After all, we already use the tax system to regulate and punish moral 'evil doers' with their nasty estates when they die, libatious liquor addictions, and filthy cancer sticks. Stephan

thompsonx -> RE: Legalize Prostitution...........Now. (12/28/2006 3:05:16 PM)
I take a similar approach to the decisive loss of our 'drug war' which has made the US appear both as oppressors and fools in our own backyard - our absolute inability to control the steady flow of drugs into the country won't be solved by any fence of any height, and the 2000+% profit margin on drugs (due to their illegality) has only helped make drug lords more powerful than oil sheiks. But these are arguments for different social ills that deserve their own thread, lest this become a convoluted 'how to fight evil' mess. Stephan: How did you arrive at the 2000% mark up figure? There is not a dope dealer in the world who would not sell his or her soul for a mark up like that. If we look in the magazine Hi Times which quotes drug prices on the street in various metropolitan areas. Good pot runs about $500 per ounce that would make the dealers cost .25 cents an ounce. Cocaine at $2000 an ounce would make the dealers cost $1.00 an ounce. Your figures seem a little inflated. thompson

Chaingang -> RE: Legalize Prostitution...........Now. (12/28/2006 3:25:45 PM)
The profit margin on drugs is huge. If it were legal and regulated most drugs would cost about the same as aspirin to produce, although taxes might make them higher in cost. One thing to consider when it comes to marijuana, cocaine, and heroin is that they are derived from what are basically "weeds" that grow naturally. The coca plant can even be hard to eradicate as it is tenacious where it spreads. At this point there is some proof that growers may even have bred an herbicide resistant strain of the coca plant.

thompsonx -> RE: Legalize Prostitution...........Now. (12/28/2006 3:34:21 PM)
Chingang; I would agree that there is a meaningful mark up on illegal drugs. I am questioning the 2000% number. thompson

Stephann -> RE: Legalize Prostitution...........Now. (12/28/2006 4:28:37 PM)
For the record, I'm not a statistician. For a much more detailed analysis of fluxuations of street drug prices (yes, nerd that I am, I don't know how much drugs actually cost) check out this report: http://www.publicpolicy.umd.edu/faculty/reuter/Working%20Papers/Illegal%20Lemons.pdf From it, I was able to lift that one kilogram (2.25 lbs) of Cocaine is valued at around $25,000 US. I buy the same amount of sugar or flour for around a dollar, coffee for about five dollars, though surely prices have increased in the US. As a crop, it simply isn't more difficult to harvest cocaine (chosen for example, different drugs carry different margins) than it is coffee. The profit most certainly doesn't go into the hands of the actual farmer, anymore than the grocery store owner is profitting from the mob bookie in the back. Still, my 2000% guestimate in this case falls well short of a coffee comparison - it's actually a profit of x 50,000 (or 5,000,000%) (cost of cocaine manufacturing: 5$/kilo, Street price: $25,000/kilo... well, you do the math.) With money like that, naturally it's in the interests of the drug cartel to keep the drug trade illegal. Edited: cuz I hate when people use 'teh' intentionally, and my fingers move too fast sometimes.

MmakeMme -> RE: Legalize Prostitution...........Now. (12/28/2006 4:49:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen I'm sure I'm not the only one who might query that. I bet you were such a good little boy before that trip. Just look at you now E Good God, if his personality is the side effect of sleeping with a whore, I am inordinately jealous of the whore. ~languourous stretch~

thompsonx -> RE: Legalize Prostitution...........Now. (12/28/2006 5:24:32 PM)
Stephann: I found your article quite interesting but I did not draw the same conclusions you did. For example on page 144 the article states that cocain comming into the US in multiple kilogram quantities cost about 15 to25 dollars a gram and is sold on the street in one gram quantities at 100 dollars a gram this is for pure and uncut product. Your comparison of coffee to cocain is not a fair comparison. While coffee and cocaine are both picked by hand coffee is dried roasted packaged and shipped. The weight of the shipped product is greater than 50% of the weight of the picked product. Cocaine on the other hand must be extracted from the coca leaf and the weight of the shipped product is less than 10 % of the picked weight. A more accurate comparison of price might be to compare the price of illicit cocain to pharmacutical cocain. Cannibus is similar. A marijuana plant weighing 25 pounds might only provide a pound of product. I am not denying there is a huge profit margin but 2000% is contradicted by the evidence you supplied. thompson

shatteringlilium -> RE: Legalize Prostitution...........Now. (12/28/2006 5:39:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver In fact there is less drug use and sexual permissiveness all round from what I can tell even though sex is so much more in the open. This largely to do with the fact that one of the reasons we have an overwhelmingly sexually disfunctional society is, we throw a bigger fit over a tit on TV than we do watching someone's head get blown off. We're sheltered about sex due to the assumption that if we talk about it more and become more open, kids will want it more. Even though it's basic psychological principal and common sense that the more tabboo you make something, the more certain people will want it : ) If we were more open and comfortable with our reproductive cycle in our culture, it would no longer be taboo, and no longer be lusted after due to its mystery. It won't be a mystery anymore. Nothing to lust after.

LadyJulieAnn -> RE: Legalize Prostitution...........Now. (12/28/2006 6:05:51 PM)
I'm all for legalizing prostitution, but I don't agree with you that cerebral palsy, amputations, burns, etc. instantly qualify one as being "pitiful" and unable to find a sexual partner without paying for one. Be well, Julie

Stephann -> RE: Legalize Prostitution...........Now. (12/28/2006 6:19:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Stephann: I found your article quite interesting but I did not draw the same conclusions you did. For example on page 144 the article states that cocain comming into the US in multiple kilogram quantities cost about 15 to25 dollars a gram and is sold on the street in one gram quantities at 100 dollars a gram this is for pure and uncut product. Your comparison of coffee to cocain is not a fair comparison. While coffee and cocaine are both picked by hand coffee is dried roasted packaged and shipped. The weight of the shipped product is greater than 50% of the weight of the picked product. Cocaine on the other hand must be extracted from the coca leaf and the weight of the shipped product is less than 10 % of the picked weight. A more accurate comparison of price might be to compare the price of illicit cocain to pharmacutical cocain. Cannibus is similar. A marijuana plant weighing 25 pounds might only provide a pound of product. I am not denying there is a huge profit margin but 2000% is contradicted by the evidence you supplied. thompson Thompson, I drew my price figure from page 157 at the bottom. One of the troubles about the 'value' of any illegal drug (as the report illustrates in language I didn't care to spend five hours studying) is that it fluxuates - I recall further down, on page 161 paragraph 2 where it illustrates that even a casual user could easily save $5,000 a year if they purchased only slightly larger amounts less often. I poked around the net for a bit, but couldn't find any facts to compare how much coca is needed to make (say) a kilo. I did determine that the process of manufacturing cocaine is rather complicated, though the same could be said for making dried pasta or vinegar. At any rate, even if the cost of processing cocaine was twice that of coffee, there's still a great deal of profit. I did a little bit of poking around the prices, and it seems 40$ is the running street rate per gram - leading to a $40,000 per kilo end value. Still, I'll stand by the more conservative $25,000 per kilo estimate for the sake of argument. I'll also admit I am not a marketing expert - anyone with a stronger grasp of terminology is welcome to jump in. Anyway: A candy bar priced at $1.00 that costs $.50 to make yields a 100% profit (the profit is equal to cost.) A candy bar priced at $1.00 that costs $.10 to make yields of %1000 profit (the profit is ten times the cost.) Thus, assuming the processing of cocaine is twice the cost of processing coffee, we are still left with one kilo of cocaine yielding $24,995 - or a 2,500,000% profit (well beyond my initial suggestion of 2,000%) For perspective, that literally sets the value of a kilo of cocaine to actually be a few thousand dollars higher than gold. Legalizing and regulating these substances would reduce them to the value of coffee. Anybody here read about the latest coffee deals gone bad in LA?

MstrssScarlet -> RE: Legalize Prostitution...........Now. (12/28/2006 6:36:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Its not only the physically challenged that could/should be legitimately served, those with mental problems that lead to social maladjustment need some fun now and then. Or those with wild way out fantasies. First to ask how I know that gets their name written down in my little black book !. Not going there!!! Too scary for me even!!! LOL Mistress Scarlet

thompsonx -> RE: Legalize Prostitution...........Now. (12/28/2006 6:59:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Stephann: I found your article quite interesting but I did not draw the same conclusions you did. For example on page 144 the article states that cocain comming into the US in multiple kilogram quantities cost about 15 to25 dollars a gram and is sold on the street in one gram quantities at 100 dollars a gram this is for pure and uncut product. Your comparison of coffee to cocain is not a fair comparison. While coffee and cocaine are both picked by hand coffee is dried roasted packaged and shipped. The weight of the shipped product is greater than 50% of the weight of the picked product. Cocaine on the other hand must be extracted from the coca leaf and the weight of the shipped product is less than 10 % of the picked weight. A more accurate comparison of price might be to compare the price of illicit cocain to pharmacutical cocain. Cannibus is similar. A marijuana plant weighing 25 pounds might only provide a pound of product. I am not denying there is a huge profit margin but 2000% is contradicted by the evidence you supplied. thompson Thompson, I drew my price figure from page 157 at the bottom. One of the troubles about the 'value' of any illegal drug (as the report illustrates in language I didn't care to spend five hours studying I do not understand why you would give me a 25 page document to justify your arguement if you did not care to spend enough time to read it yourself. ) is that it fluxuates - I recall further down, on page 161 paragraph 2 where it illustrates that even a casual user could easily save $5,000 a year if they purchased only slightly larger amounts less often. I poked around the net for a bit, but couldn't find any facts to compare how much coca is needed to make (say) a kilo. I did determine that the process of manufacturing cocaine is rather complicated, though the same could be said for making dried pasta or vinegar. Making dried pasta or viniger is childs play compared to making cocain from coca At any rate, even if the cost of processing cocaine was twice that of coffee, there's still a great deal of profit. It is more like ten to one. I did a little bit of poking around the prices, and it seems 40$ is the running street rate per gram - The price of street cocain is quoted several times in the document that you base your opinion on. leading to a $40,000 per kilo end value. Still, I'll stand by the more conservative $25,000 per kilo estimate for the sake of argument. I am a bit confused here...first you say that if you buy in quantity you could save a bunch and then you use the gram price to extrapolate the kilo price. I'll also admit I am not a marketing expert - anyone with a stronger grasp of terminology is welcome to jump in. That would be me and I am here. Anyway: A candy bar priced at $1.00 that costs $.50 to make yields a 100% profit (the profit is equal to cost.) A candy bar priced at $1.00 that costs $.10 to make yields of %1000 profit (the profit is ten times the cost.) Thus, assuming the processing of cocaine is twice the cost of processing coffee, we are still left with one kilo of cocaine yielding $24,995 - or a 2,500,000% profit (well beyond my initial suggestion of 2,000%) There you go making unwarented assumptions. For perspective, that literally sets the value of a kilo of cocaine to actually be a few thousand dollars higher than gold. That is true of illicit cocain and not true of pharmaceutical cocain. Legalizing and regulating these substances would reduce them to the value of coffee. Anybody here read about the latest coffee deals gone bad in LA? No: legalizing cocain would reduce the price of street cocain to the value of pharmaceutical cocain not the price of coffee. Perhaps you should read the complete article you are quoting as your source before you post your opinion of what it says. Your opinion is not supported by your source. thompson

TreSwank -> RE: Legalize Prostitution...........Now. (12/28/2006 7:30:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyJulieAnn I'm all for legalizing prostitution, but I don't agree with you that cerebral palsy, amputations, burns, etc. instantly qualify one as being "pitiful" and unable to find a sexual partner without paying for one. Be well, Julie Honey............how many healthy women do you know that would choose an amputee, cerebral palsy sufferer, or a SEVERELY physically handicapped man as a lover? I know 26 year-old men that are virgins simply by merit of their social ineptitude alone, so I can't really imagine that the severely disabled are doing any better at the game of love. Let's face the facts...............................healthy women don't want to fuck the handicapped unless "said" party is an individual of vast financial means. I thank God everyday that I don't have anything wrong with me except for inveterate flakiness and a pack-a-day cigarette habit.

Stephann -> RE: Legalize Prostitution...........Now. (12/28/2006 7:30:26 PM)
I do not understand why you would give me a 25 page document to justify your arguement if you did not care to spend enough time to read it yourself. I used it to illustrate where I got the price of cocaine from, that's all. I warned that a 'much more detailed analysis' could be found there - I thought that was sufficiant warning that it was a long read, on a very specific topic. Making dried pasta or viniger is childs play compared to making cocain from coca Nope. It's not hard. quote: ORIGINAL: Me At any rate, even if the cost of processing cocaine was twice that of coffee, there's still a great deal of profit. It is more like ten to one. According to the DEA it's not. (same link as above.) I'd be interested to see your evidence. To boot, coke traffikers don't have to worry about silly costs packaging, sanitary plants, or paying taxes. The price of street cocain is quoted several times in the document that you base your opinion on. And? I am a bit confused here...first you say that if you buy in quantity you could save a bunch and then you use the gram price to extrapolate the kilo price. I also cited my source, feel free to read it. The point is that the end consumer pays a much higher end cost, for reasons also mentioned in the report. I still used the more conservative price of $25,000 in my calculations (and indicated I did so.) quote: A candy bar priced at $1.00 that costs $.50 to make yields a 100% profit (the profit is equal to cost.) A candy bar priced at $1.00 that costs $.10 to make yields of %1000 profit (the profit is ten times the cost.) Thus, assuming the processing of cocaine is twice the cost of processing coffee, we are still left with one kilo of cocaine yielding $24,995 - or a 2,500,000% profit (well beyond my initial suggestion of 2,000%) There you go making unwarented assumptions. Huh? I offered some pretty concrete figures and conclusions - you're welcome to try it on your own calculator if you don't trust them. For perspective, that literally sets the value of aHu kilo of cocaine to actually be a few thousand dollars higher than gold. That is true of illicit cocain and not true of pharmaceutical cocain. My entire premise was the high value of cocaine, because it is illicit. Pharmaceutical Cocaine isn't a consideration here, because the issue is based on the value of an activity, on the basis of it's illegality driving up market price. No: legalizing cocain would reduce the price of street cocain to the value of pharmaceutical cocain not the price of coffee. Perhaps you should read the complete article you are quoting as your source before you post your opinion of what it says. Your opinion is not supported by your source. thompson The article repeatedly points out several underlying reasons for the prices, chief among them being that the substance is illegal, thus carrying inherent risks associated with illegal activity. Kindly address the core of the issue, and support your opinions. Stephan

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Legalize Prostitution...........Now. (12/28/2006 7:41:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shatteringlilium Even though it's basic psychological principal and common sense that the more tabboo you make something, the more certain people will want it : ) If we were more open and comfortable with our reproductive cycle in our culture, it would no longer be taboo, and no longer be lusted after due to its mystery. It won't be a mystery anymore. Nothing to lust after. While I certainly agree that repression leads to greater excitation, full openness won't take away the lust at all. Kids will still want to have sex, they already do, they always have. It will simply be open about it. And hopefully that will lead to good education, trust, and all the other good things we WANT to associate with sexuality.

thompsonx -> RE: Legalize Prostitution...........Now. (12/28/2006 7:43:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreSwank quote: ORIGINAL: LadyJulieAnn I'm all for legalizing prostitution, but I don't agree with you that cerebral palsy, amputations, burns, etc. instantly qualify one as being "pitiful" and unable to find a sexual partner without paying for one. Be well, Julie Honey............how many healthy women do you know that would choose an amputee, cerebral palsy sufferer, or a SEVERELY physically handicapped man as a lover? I know 26 year-old men that are virgins simply by merit of their social ineptitude alone, so I can't really imagine that the severely disabled are doing any better at the game of love. Let's face the facts...............................healthy women don't want to fuck the handicapped unless "said" party is an individual of vast financial means. I thank God everyday that I don't have anything wrong with me except for inveterate flakiness and a pack-a-day cigarette habit. TreSwank: Actually I know a 60 something guy with MS who scores often and well but I will admit he is an exception. He has an interesting style...he mind fucks them first then he just peals their knickers off. Sorry for hijacking your thread. thompson

shatteringlilium -> RE: Legalize Prostitution...........Now. (12/28/2006 8:13:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyJulieAnn I'm all for legalizing prostitution, but I don't agree with you that cerebral palsy, amputations, burns, etc. instantly qualify one as being "pitiful" and unable to find a sexual partner without paying for one. Be well, Julie :( In a perfect world that would be true, but in a world where the less physically and mentally perfect (or seemingly perfect) you are, the fewer people want to screw you, that is an unrealistic statement. Some of them do. Just not all of them. It's one of the really scarring things about something so detrimental happening to you - it will be harder to find the decent people in the world because they are harder to find. Even really good-hearted people have problems if someone they are ina relationship with ends up with any of the above.

petdave -> RE: Legalize Prostitution...........Now. (12/28/2006 8:32:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Voltare Two sides to the coin. If prostitution is legalized, the state (under current tort law) would incur a financial responsibility and risk. When there are laws prohibiting an activity, it's more difficult to sue for damages. i donno about that. The .gov, being in the position of writing the laws and appointing the judges, is pretty good at avoiding responsibility. However, in our (U.S., at least) surrealistically "politically correct", sue-happy culture, there is an interesting ponderable... would state-licensed whores be prohibited from practicing discretion in selecting their clientele the way every other business is? Would the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) mandate complex rigging in cathouses to accomodate disabled customers, and require them to take on HIV+, hep+, and various other buggy sorts in the name of equality? And more importantly, could fetishists use this to our advantage? [8\|] ...dave i went to a whore, who said my life's a bore, so quit my whinin' cuz' it's bringing her down...

CalliopePurple -> RE: Legalize Prostitution...........Now. (12/29/2006 12:23:09 AM)
dave, now I have that godforsaken Green Day song stuck in my head.

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