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RE: Pro-stitute? (no flames please) - 11/12/2007 6:17:29 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		Fyi keep in mind we are in a political battle on a lot of levels things can  change. Joe and joan pubic are changing their minds about a lot of civil rights.  Make sure you always have a plan B

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RE: Pro-stitute? (no flames please) - 11/12/2007 6:33:59 PM   
MsSaskia


Posts: 415
Joined: 9/9/2004
From: Denver
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

Fyi keep in mind we are in a political battle on a lot of levels things can  change. Joe and joan pubic are changing their minds about a lot of civil rights.  Make sure you always have a plan B


Amen to that!  Can't wait to see if other Districts uphold District 6 overturning 2257 laws. 

One of the positive sides of the mainstreaming of BDSM is that a lot more people are understanding that it's more than just sex and it's not harmful between consenting adults.  I think that's going to start impacting how legal cases are decided.

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RE: Pro-stitute? (no flames please) - 11/13/2007 3:04:51 AM   
pinksugarsub


Posts: 1224
Status: offline 		If You look up 'prostitution'in the criminal code for Your state, You will likely find that to commit the crime the offender must offer certain defined acts in exchange for money -- acts of a sexual nature.  In fact it might be funny to look it up just to see how lawmakers struggled to describe these acts without resorting to commonly used words.
 
As i understand it, when a Dom/me requires tribute, there is no quid pro quo apart from some sort of attention.  Escort services keep good lawyers on retainer to help them stay in business by not crossing this line in a provable manner.
 
pinksugarsub

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RE: Pro-stitute? (no flames please) - 11/13/2007 6:51:48 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		A pro Domme and a prostitute both require tribunes. I still havent seen the difference. If you feel that calling yourself a Pro Domme makes a difference good for you. Your still a prostitute. At least you don't see the prostitutes kick and scream about being called what they are.

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Profile   Post #: 284
RE: Pro-stitute? (no flames please) - 11/13/2007 7:02:05 AM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		In the future, please find a way to support your argument... and learn to quote me accurately.

You said, "I think you'll be hard-pressed to find any law dictionary that defines flogging, caning and the like a sex act."

I believe I provided you with fairly clear legal definitions regarding prostitution and they really weren't hard to find.  Perhaps you passed that over and just went straight to being defensive.  You seem to talk a lot about legal definitions, but have yet to produce any.  In fact, you don't really provide anything but a lot of ..well.. unsupported whining, really. 

You say that, "Sex acts involve genitals with genitals or anus and genitals or anus with mouths."  Is that the legal definition in Colorado?  So  paying for a handjob on Colfax avenue is okay then, by your legal definition?

"We, unlike you, are very clear on exactly what the law states.." 
You have yet to provide that you know anything about the law beyond your own (mis)interpretation of it.

"Police are very clear on this, too, and do not target pro dommes because they are clear on our job descriptions.  They test everyone out to see if any of us are willing to bend the rules a bit, keep an eye on those that are to be sure they aren't becoming a public nuisance and leave alone the ones that don't bend the rules.  If no sex acts are being performed by their own legal definition, there is no cause for arrest or prosecution."
I suppose I will again have to take your word for it.. I mean, all these legal definitions you tell us you know about without providing any actual definitions... and your in-depth analysis of the workings of the local police is simply stunning.

"It's good enough for the legal system, but clearly not good enough for you.  Perhaps your next step should be lobbying your Congressional representative to get those laws changed so people like me know our place a little better."

Don't... just don't.  In all your overreactions and your defensiveness you think to color me as some kind of pro domme-hating prude from the religious right who is out to  bring fire and brimstone down upon the sinful hussies that like to eat babies and are destroying the morality of our fair youth..or some other such horseshit?  I have never said anything about what pro dommes do as being wrong.  I have never called a pro domme a whore, hooker, or any other derrogatory term.  I answered the OP's question by providing my viewpoint on the difference between someone who offers sex in exchange for money and someone who offers BDSM in exchange for money... and you want to get your panties in a twist over it?  Fine.. argue your position.. develop some kind of coherent rebuttal.. but leave your melodramatic, meaningless meanderings about what you think you know about me by the wayside.

"BDSM is not all about sex.  Sex is a small part of it and no, it is not standard operating procedure that the client gets his rocks off/achieves orgasm with a pro domme."
Never said it was...  

That whole "I got no problem with prostitutes, and I don't care what you say, you're a hooker" 
is ridiculous and transparent. 
Well, you're right... I don't care much about what you have to say.  However, I do care that you never seem to quote me correctly.  I do care that you choose to try and put words in my mouth and that you assume to know something about me. 
 
"You want to reduce what we do to sex acts, whether we're performing sex acts or not.  The idea that couples might come to us to learn to play with each other, or that crossdressers might need a non-judgmental place to go to learn to be more passable, or that someone just needs to be beaten til they fly sounds a little too much like what everyone else in the scene does.  We're good enough at it and we love it enough that we devote ourselves to it 24/7, and a lot of lifestylers resent that and try to find reasons to pick at it.  Whatever.  Knock yourself out.  Continuing to spread misinformation about what pro dommes do might comfort you somehow, but it's weak as hell. "

There you go again...  I mean, did you ever read my original post, or did you just go straight to Defcon 1? Did I say anything about BDSM being only about sex acts?  Those are your words. What the hell do you know about what I want? 
 
The only thing I have claimed as fact in any of this is that:
1. Prodommes accept money for their services.
2. Prostitutes accept money for their services.
3. Prodommes perform what some would refer to as sexually-related activity
4. Prostitute has been legally defined in at least 3 countries and multiple states within the U.S.  as accepting money, goods or services for sexual and sexually-related activities.
 
I have no issues with pro dommes. 
I am not "picking" at what pro dommes do.
I am STILL not judging sex workers, pro dommes, prostitutes, or anyone else's choice of profession.
 
 
Hope you all have a pleasant evening...
 
~Thorns
 
 
 




_____________________________

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"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

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RE: Pro-stitute? (no flames please) - 11/13/2007 7:12:34 AM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
Joined: 4/8/2004
Status: offline 		here is something that of interest No matter what you do or how you do it. If a prosecutor wants to make waves for you they will find away. So the thing of it is. Try to get a long with all parities and smile alot yep lol

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Profile   Post #: 286
RE: Pro-stitute? (no flames please) - 11/14/2007 2:15:33 AM   
hermione83


Posts: 393
Joined: 8/1/2007
Status: offline 		I pretty much think anyone who sells their love, affection, friendship, body, etc etc is doing something wrong, whether you call it prostitution or not. And you know - anyone who sells anything that gives anyone any sexual fulfillment at all, in my eyes is a prostitute. Whether you're a haute couture model posing nude or partially, doing some entertainment ala-Britney Spears, a stripper, a phone sex-op, a pro-domme, a pro-sub, a girl in a pink fur coat with spots on it hanging out a central park at night looking for a car to hop into, or a person selling her body for a meal to feed her five kids who were born with her HIV in 3rd world country.

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RE: Pro-stitute? (no flames please) - 11/14/2007 3:02:49 AM   
susie


Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hermione83

I pretty much think anyone who sells their love, affection, friendship, body, etc etc is doing something wrong, whether you call it prostitution or not. And you know - anyone who sells anything that gives anyone any sexual fulfillment at all, in my eyes is a prostitute. Whether you're a haute couture model posing nude or partially, doing some entertainment ala-Britney Spears, a stripper, a phone sex-op, a pro-domme, a pro-sub, a girl in a pink fur coat with spots on it hanging out a central park at night looking for a car to hop into, or a person selling her body for a meal to feed her five kids who were born with her HIV in 3rd world country.


So you think women modelling underwear, or singers and entertainers or strippers equate to the same thing as a prostitute? Wow what a huge leap. So what about a married women who stays at home and lets her husband pay for everything is she a prostitute because she lets her husband have sex with her?

Try going up to Naomi Campbell and telling her you think she is a prostitute and see what she thinks.

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Profile   Post #: 288
RE: Pro-stitute? (no flames please) - 11/14/2007 3:14:41 AM   
hermione83


Posts: 393
Joined: 8/1/2007
Status: offline 		susie - I realize that models think what they're doing is nothing short of a high form of art - even though they're simply using sex appeal to earn money for the company they work for in the end. And yes, if a woman married a man *for* his money and has sex with him to keep that going, she is, in my eyes. Hopefully, though, in a marriage it just so happens that someone wants to take care of the other person in any way that he/she can - and they both happen to want to have sex because again, they love each other. I'd like to think that in a *loving* relationship, there is no score nor someone owing anyone anything. If marriage is simply about both parties getting what they want - its business, not something higher.

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RE: Pro-stitute? (no flames please) - 11/14/2007 4:22:30 AM   
RumpusParable


Posts: 1923
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: NYC now!
Status: offline 		I do have to say I find it ironic that someone playing the "I'm a (technical) virgin"-game makes such grand generalization of other's sexual and non-sexual life choices while splitting hairs so very carefully with thier own is being done.    -Or are all the things involving BDSM, kink and physical contact on your interest list hypothetical?

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Relationships come and go, but plastination is forever.

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Profile   Post #: 290
RE: Pro-stitute? (no flames please) - 11/14/2007 4:47:34 AM   
hermione83


Posts: 393
Joined: 8/1/2007
Status: offline 		RP, they're more thann hypothetical, but it's not just technical anything, I assure you. And I'm far more stringent with myself and how I live.

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Profile   Post #: 291
RE: Pro-stitute? (no flames please) - 11/14/2007 4:53:35 AM   
asubmissiveheart


Posts: 462
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns
The only thing I have claimed as fact in any of this is that:
1. Prodommes accept money for their services.
2. Prostitutes accept money for their services.
3. Prodommes perform what some would refer to as sexually-related activity
4. Prostitute has been legally defined in at least 3 countries and multiple states within the U.S.  as accepting money, goods or services for sexual and sexually-related activities.
 
I have no issues with pro dommes. 
I am not "picking" at what pro dommes do.
I am STILL not judging sex workers, pro dommes, prostitutes, or anyone else's choice of profession.
 
 
Hope you all have a pleasant evening...
 
~Thorns


Mr. Thorns said it best, and these are the facts.
Pro Dommes charge for sexually related activities.
Prostitutes charge for sexually related activities.
These are the facts, and anything that you feel or say does not change the facts.

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RE: Pro-stitute? (no flames please) - 11/14/2007 4:59:54 AM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline 		I feel that Pro Dommes provide a much needed service, and as long as there's no penetration, or orgasm assistance, they're not prostitutes.

OTOH, if they do anal training, or masturbate their client to orgasm, then yes, it's prostitution, with fetishes thrown in.

(in reply to Copulo)
Profile   Post #: 293
RE: Pro-stitute? (no flames please) - 11/14/2007 5:02:16 AM   
asubmissiveheart


Posts: 462
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline 		Many of them are performing penetration, and yes anal training is penetration.
Hand to genital contact is a sexual actitivity also.
Call it what you want to, but a lot of what most of them do are sexual acts.

< Message edited by asubmissiveheart -- 11/14/2007 5:05:35 AM >

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RE: Pro-stitute? (no flames please) - 11/14/2007 5:29:36 AM   
Kirren


Posts: 580
Joined: 9/5/2007
Status: offline 		I think its great that this thread, no matter how many ways its said, keeps popping up. Last week it was is a hooker better than a pro domme, two weeks from now itll be some insanity about hookers with penis's being pro dommes.

I just have to laugh at it. Honestly.
As a Domme, that has and will continue to do Pro sessions, I will tell you this, I dont care if you think Im a hooker. Im not sleeping with any one. Im not touching any ones lil pee pee. Im not anally penetrating any one in a pro session. I humiliate, I objectify, I degrade, and I beat the holy shit out of them, but I certainly dont give any one head, I dont let any one touch Me, and I do NOT have sex with them.

So, as some one, among the few others I have seen post to this, that does NOT have sex when in a Pro Session, I would sincerely appreciate it, if you would NOT generalize, and show ignorance to what well may be, tho still exists, minority.



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Everything has been said before
There's nothing left to say anymore
When it's all the same
You can ask for it by name


Did I fail to mention...I am a BITCH?

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RE: Pro-stitute? (no flames please) - 11/14/2007 5:34:04 AM   
RumpusParable


Posts: 1923
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: NYC now!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hermione83

RP, they're more thann hypothetical, but it's not just technical anything, I assure you. And I'm far more stringent with myself and how I live.


Then, if you would, can you explain how you call yourself a "virgin" when you're engaging in sexual overtly sexual activities such as breast play and orgasm control but can call someone a prostitute for having an attractive picture taken of them for others, often thousands of miles away, to just find attractive?

_____________________________

Relationships come and go, but plastination is forever.

I generally use fast-reply. If directing my post at someone specific I will indicate so.

Minimal summary: Artist, Disabled Veteran, Vegan, Pornographer, and Agender dominant female.

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Profile   Post #: 296
RE: Pro-stitute? (no flames please) - 11/14/2007 5:38:41 AM   
RumpusParable


Posts: 1923
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: NYC now!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: asubmissiveheart

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns
The only thing I have claimed as fact in any of this is that:
1. Prodommes accept money for their services.
2. Prostitutes accept money for their services.
3. Prodommes perform what some would refer to as sexually-related activity
4. Prostitute has been legally defined in at least 3 countries and multiple states within the U.S.  as accepting money, goods or services for sexual and sexually-related activities.
 
I have no issues with pro dommes. 
I am not "picking" at what pro dommes do.
I am STILL not judging sex workers, pro dommes, prostitutes, or anyone else's choice of profession.
 
 
Hope you all have a pleasant evening...
 
~Thorns


Mr. Thorns said it best, and these are the facts.
Pro Dommes charge for sexually related activities.
Prostitutes charge for sexually related activities.
These are the facts, and anything that you feel or say does not change the facts.


Then you must consider all masseuses prostitutes as well, as they all have much more sexual-related activities with their clients than I do my subs.  -And I'm not speaking of the non-professionals or those that do "extra", but rather the legitimate ones.

_____________________________

Relationships come and go, but plastination is forever.

I generally use fast-reply. If directing my post at someone specific I will indicate so.

Minimal summary: Artist, Disabled Veteran, Vegan, Pornographer, and Agender dominant female.

(in reply to asubmissiveheart)
Profile   Post #: 297
RE: Pro-stitute? (no flames please) - 11/14/2007 5:42:14 AM   
RumpusParable


Posts: 1923
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: NYC now!
Status: offline 		And with that last post there ^ I'm ending my part in this thread.  The ignorance and bitterness level is too high, throughout it.

_____________________________

Relationships come and go, but plastination is forever.

I generally use fast-reply. If directing my post at someone specific I will indicate so.

Minimal summary: Artist, Disabled Veteran, Vegan, Pornographer, and Agender dominant female.

(in reply to RumpusParable)
Profile   Post #: 298
RE: Pro-stitute? (no flames please) - 11/14/2007 5:52:34 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hermione83

I pretty much think anyone who sells their love, affection, friendship, body, etc etc is doing something wrong, whether you call it prostitution or not. And you know - anyone who sells anything that gives anyone any sexual fulfillment at all, in my eyes is a prostitute. Whether you're a haute couture model posing nude or partially, doing some entertainment ala-Britney Spears, a stripper, a phone sex-op, a pro-domme, a pro-sub, a girl in a pink fur coat with spots on it hanging out a central park at night looking for a car to hop into, or a person selling her body for a meal to feed her five kids who were born with her HIV in 3rd world country.


And that would include massage therapists? By definition they are selling stimulating  contact between their body and the naked skin of their clients. It is not at all uncommon for said clients to become sexually arounsed during such contact.

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RE: Pro-stitute? (no flames please) - 11/14/2007 6:13:04 AM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eldritchdancer

"If a Dominant, be they male or female, demands tribute to meet with them at all... how are they different from a prostitute/giggilo? In both cases you are giving something of value just for the pleasure of their company."



I see no difference between the two.  The trade of goods, services, coin, cash, candy, car payments, chickens, goats, etc,  in exchange for sexually-related services is exactly what a prostitute or giggilo does.  The type of tribute is really irrelevant when being used as a means for trade.

Professionals in the BDSM sense of the word, are just bossier about how they ask for it. 

(Regardless.. I'm not passing judgement on either practice.  I'm just going to call it as I see it.)

~Thorns


And what is it when a pro dom is paid a tribute for non sexual services?   Just off the top of my head ... flesh hook suspension, a discipline session eg caning where there is no sexual context to or for the discipline, a bondage session with 'houdini' whose trip is not about been turned on by his or her predicament but the endurance (of sustaining their bondage positions) and achievement for escaping from it, a cross dresser where there is no sexual desire when they are cross dressed ... infact a-sexual is how I would describe the ones I know ... where all they wish to do is to receive orders such as having to iron a pile of laundry, count and colour co-ordinate a bag of drinking straws, re-pot my sunflower seedlings ...

I just seems to me that when talking professional domination many, many, many, many and let me say it again, many, people can't see past their own libidoes and allow for the many, many, many many, and let me say it again, many, facets of B&D, S&M, dominance and submission that do not require, nor have any desire for any form of sexual gratification. 







_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.


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