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Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/11/2007 9:37:28 PM   
cloudboy


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Must say this quote really struck me:

>“A private who loses a rifle suffers far greater consequences than a general who loses a war,” he wrote.<

George Packer, The New Yorker
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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 2:41:27 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Yes. The ordinary soldiers have to live with the consequences of the war, the politicians just move on to other things, the generals appear to just get shuffled around. This is probably the reason the neocons don't have a problem with starting stupid wars, they don't have to face the consequences of failure, they just blame everything and everyone else. You can see the mentality here on the the threads when supporters of the war say they did win the war, the problems started after the war and the problem is the Iraqis for being divided. Well let's get something clear. The war was never won! The opening battle was won. To say the war was won is like saying Germany won WWII, the problem was that other countries wouldn't accept the result.

But getting to the point, until politicians and generals face the consequences of their actions, there will be other misconceived wars. Remember, this was a war that didn't need to be fought, it was illegal by any civilised standards and it was fought because of the blind arrogance of the neocons and the belief that violence could be used to advance their interests. Those who started this war should be put on trial. If politicians have to face the consequences of their policies, there minds might be concentrated on what is good for the country, not what is good for themselves. This war was not a mistake, it was not a choice between two evils, it was not about politicians making a tough decision and getting it wrong, it is not about human fallibility unless you include downright arrogance. There are no mitigating factors that could possibly give those politicians that started the war any defence.

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 4:13:46 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Accountability in Iraq.

Yes, politicians determine invasions, and in this day and age they're rendered subservient to corporate objectives, but:

1) The army: 

The people who fight wars need to take some responsibility for Iraq (the proportion of the share they take is open to debate). This isn't 1914 where the majority of the population could be excused due to an education that didn't extend beyond the 3 Rs. If a person signs up to the army, then they know there's a chance of invasion and destruction - when the government sends them into destroy, then the "only following orders" line would have washed in 1914, but not today. Each individual is governed by his/her own actions and the environment in which they live - circumstance plays a part in life, but so does personal choice/responsibility, and if someone is in Iraq displacing 2 million civilians, dropping bombs on villages and killing civilians in assaults, then they must take a share of responsibility for their actions. A point on the wider issue of reining in politicians, a society needs to recognise and accept it has social and cultural failings before it can ever begin to change society for the better/common good/people.

2) The people:

The old adage of the establishment causing war and the people fighting them still holds true, but the people should know better in today's world. What percentage of the US people supported the invasion of Iraq regardless of UN mandate or evidence of WMDs? These people are complicit in the death, destruction and displacement of millions of people - without the support of these people, then the government do not have a mandate, and "just following orders" or "I didn't understand" isn't good enough in this day and age. These people need to make sure they understand before they take part in a decision concerning the lives/deaths of millions of people.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 5/12/2007 4:15:39 AM >

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 6:10:34 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		NG - I'm sorry, but you seem to be portraying here an absolute ignorance of how the armed forces work. One cannot have armed forces in which each member is permitted a consience in the way you suggest, and ever expect them to be effective. Those who join up, do so in the knowledge beforehand that they must act as a collective, according to orders given from above the grounds for which will most likely be unknown even a few stages down the hierarchy let alone at the front line. Subject to the orders not being illegal, then they must be followed as to not follow them may produce immense risk to the whole, or at least compromise the whole.

The only liability which can attach to a soldier (using the army as reference) in such circumstances, is where through his own negligence/ omission / commission, he has failed to obey a legal order, or where on his account he has committed some act in knowing contravention of an order. Orders can be issued specifically of course - "go and do x, y, z" or they can be standing orders - "dont lose your weapon", "dont shoot civilians" etc. That he might contravene a standing order such as "dont shoot civilians" unknowingly due to the confusion and stress involved in combat operations, does not make him guilty of such a contravention of a standing order however. War is a messy business, even in today's age of "smart" weapons etc. One can be sure that the vast majority of soldiers who do unknowingly kill civilians or become involved in friendly fire incidents and so on, regret it deeply to the end of their days.

All accountability and liability for the consequences of following legal orders, rests firmly with those issuing the orders. When it comes to illegal orders, then the accountability and liability rests with those issuing the orders and those following those orders unquestioningly, equally. Although even in the case of illegal orders, it must be borne in mind that what we are dealing with in army units is not a bunch of individuals - the army takes great care to ensure that those individuals are a unit for operational purposes and the psychology involved in that can make a unit very effective in following both legal and illegal orders. It would take a lot of courage in such a situation to break from one's unit and refuse an order, should one's fellows be going along with it - its no excuse of course, but it perhaps explains why terrible things can sometimes occur. Throw in the factor of one's friends being killed and injured around one and the fear and anger that breeds and one can have a deadly combination out for revenge.

Above all, its easy to condemn soldiers for some of the things they do, from the distance of one's front room in a tranquil country and with a mindset ignorant of their reality.

E

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 6:42:14 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

NG - I'm sorry, but you seem to be portraying here an absolute ignorance of how the armed forces work.



It appears you haven't followed my post.

My post wasn't concerned with the oath once in the army.

The US army has form for being involved in military operations in a fair few countries - I'm sure they don't need to be pointed out. The US government has form for involvement in overthrowing governments and dictating their own version. Thus, it should be clear to a person thinking about enlisting that when you join the US army there's a chance you will be involved in killing people in another country in order to impose US values.

It follows that the soldiers in Iraq, and the people supporting at home, are complicit in the destruction and violence. Pleading ignorance is not a good enough excuse. If the would-be soldier doesn't understand these issues before joining up - then do some research - considering the potential death and destruction caused by the army, I think soldiers have a duty to the civilians on the receiving end to understand the full breadth of their potential actions and the reasons for these actions.

It ain't 1914, propaganda is not a get out of jail free card for soldiers - they're there, they're killing and displacing people - take some personal responsibility for joining an army that has form for killing people in other countries.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 5/12/2007 6:46:19 AM >

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 6:46:45 AM   
cyberdude611


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Status: offline 		War is not something that can be avoided. I think this is something that will be part of human civilization until our extinction. There is no one core reason why wars start. Sometimes it is land. Sometimes it is money. Sometimes it is religion. Sometimes it is for revolution or for liberty. It is impossible to eliminate the triggers of war.

"We make war so that we may live in peace"
-Aristotle

"It is an unfortunate fact that we can secure peace only by preparing for war."
-President John F. Kennedy

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
-John Stewart Mill

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 7:01:41 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
-John Stewart Mill


This is a false argument. As Bertrand Russel pointed out, most people prefer to die than to think. If people thought a little more, they wouldn't let their leaders turn them into murderers or have their families die as victims in a war.

One thing for certain, patriotism and nationalism are not an alibi for murder.

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 7:02:35 AM   
MellowSir


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Status: offline 		The solution is obvious, bring all the troops home, let the foreigners go ahead and kill each other off, then when they're all dead, go back and take the oil. Why should this country be the world's police? And of course it's easy to send someone off to die when you're not under threat yourself, and "support" a "war" 5000 miles away from your backyard.....

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 7:33:59 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		I'll be clear NG. The Iraq adventure is a disaster; a strategic blunder on a monumental scale in its conception and ill planned in its execution.

But if one is a soldier, one is governed by one's orders, which come from the command and in turn from the politicians. It is not a viable reason to disregard an order to say "I dont think this is a good idea", unfortunately, even if one is privy to the real reasons for any action to be taken. Neither is it at all relevant in such regard to refuse an order because one disagrees with the policies of one's government.

It seems to me that your problem with the armed forces is that they can and will do as they are intended to do - kill people to achieve the objectives of their country. I will concede that in the case of Iraq, they are killing or have killed people for the objectives of a small self interest group rather than achieving any objective in defence of their country or the advancement of their countries' interests as a whole, however it must be noted that disagreement with the policy or ideas of an elected government controlling the armed forces is no valid defence for refusing the orders given at the front line. It is for the top brass in this particular instance to identify the orders at strategic level as illegal or at least questionable.

And I think one will find that soldiers who do end up in combat zones do retain a great deal of consience about what they do and see - in normal circumstances of combat and especially when it comes to the effects on a civilian population. Thousands will return from the Iraq theatre with psychological problems as a result of it. Were they the unthinking, jingoistic killers you seem to portray them as, I dont think this would be the case.

E

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 7:47:29 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		My two posts are concerned with responsibilities when deciding to enlist, your response is concerned with taking orders after joining the army. You then misquote me with the "jingoistic killers" comment, which I blatantly didn't say - I said ignorance and a lack of misunderstanding is not a get out of jail free card. You may want to come back with you said "seem to portray", I'd rather you didn't waste my time - placing "seem to portray" in the small details doesn't cancel your "jingoistic killers" comment - if you don't mean it, then don't say it.

It's high time that people realised that blaming politicians all the time doesn't wash. If people don't recognise a problem, they'll never solve it, and the culture of supporting and excusing invasion for economic gain (and propping up personal self-esteem) extends far beyond the government.


_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 8:00:36 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MellowSir

The solution is obvious, bring all the troops home, let the foreigners go ahead and kill each other off, then when they're all dead, go back and take the oil. Why should this country be the world's police? And of course it's easy to send someone off to die when you're not under threat yourself, and "support" a "war" 5000 miles away from your backyard.....


Nobody is asking the USA to be the world police. Quite the opposite from what I can tell.  This self proclaimed role has nothing to do with keeping any peace or policing the world but advancing the interests of corporate America.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 5/12/2007 8:02:27 AM >

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 8:11:37 AM   
MellowSir


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Status: offline 		We ARE the world's police. The present prime minister in Iraq recently said that the troops need to stay in order to keep the present gov and Iraqi army propped up till democracy can take hold, we supply the israelis with weapons and training, same with the saudis and jordanians. And there are also american troops patrolling the borders in Iraq and afghanistan both, not to mention the national guard backing up our border with mexico here at home. Seem our gov is only too eager to get involved with bloodshed no matter where it is.....has to have a piece of every pie...and don't forget the fact that there are at present at least two American aircraft carriers just offshore in Iran too....WMD'S WMD'S...what crap, even if such things were in the hands of the middle easterners, they don't have enough of them to wipe us out, whereas we'd shoot ours back and obliterate them anyway 

< Message edited by MellowSir -- 5/12/2007 8:36:44 AM >

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 9:43:44 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		You say in your original post...Why should this country be the world's police?  Because the US government sees its vested interest in being the world police, though some would say the US is the world's mafia because one would expect a police force to be impartial and enforce the law, the US doesn't uphold international law but imposes its own law.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 5/12/2007 9:44:22 AM >

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 11:00:23 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

It follows that the soldiers in Iraq, and the people supporting at home, are complicit in the destruction and violence. Pleading ignorance is not a good enough excuse. 


Just as I have said, you condemn all Americans for your disagreement with any action of the US government.

Absolutist thinking. 

It's what would justify atrocities against all American in your mind, because you have marginalized any moral reasoning other than your own, and reduced an entire group of almost 300 million people to the basic formula of "bad", therefore worthy of any punishment or actions that you preceive as justified.

You are doing exactly what you rail against. Your reasoning would lead to the very things you condemn.

FirmKY

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 11:32:16 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		I'm sorry NG, but your entire position then seems to rely on the idea that enlisting in the armed forces is an act preparatory to murder? 

I dont think many of those in Iraq now or in the last few years, wanted to be there. I would suppose that if their voting habits are representative of the whole US population, that a significant proportion didnt want the government that sent them there. I would posit even further that even the daftest out there have considerable reservations about the whole adventure by now, even if they didnt have them before. And I'm pretty sure that aside from a few lunatics perhaps, they dont want to be shooting at anyone, or indeed getting shot at.

It is with the personalities running the US at the moment, and their backers and interest groups, and the policies they have instigated to achieve their own ends over and above the interests of the American people, that liability lies. To suggest that the front line soldier is guilty for the disaster as a whole or for specific incidents within the entirety is just plain wrong, in the absence of sufficient hard evidence of personal wrongdoing.

One can argue that it is the populace which elects such an administration with which blame lies. Given the way that the US electoral system works however, this is hardly very fair either. If the proportion of support for Bush and his crew is similar to that for Blair here, then at best 40% of the US population could perhaps be held accountable - however, alike with here one has only a choice of Idiot A or Idiot B, and either Idiot does not necessarily ever live up to anything they advertise in order to secure a vote and indeed often come up with new bright ideas that are not part of their mandate, because of the way our systems work. I would suspect that had the Bush manifesto from the start put forward the idea of invading Iraq for the commercial interests of its' supporters businesses, (which given the strategic blunder it represents must be the case), then he would never have won any election.

You are right though, that we have a problem, both in the US and the UK. Not because either people is stupid and easily led, not because either people thinks that invading other countries is a good idea - but because we are forced to live with an electoral and political system which is not representative and which furnishes us with a choice between a turd sandwich and a giant douche at every opportunity. Strangely enough, the turd sandwich and the giant douche appreciate this situation and when in opposition rail against it, but then when in power forget the lesson learned and perceive it to be far from their interests to change things in the system. It does not matter one jot, the way things are organised now, if the majority of both countries are suddenly converted to a certain way of thinking - the choice will still be the same; douche or turd, because those two are the only candidates with the resources and backing to make it to the final cut.

E

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 1:13:06 PM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: MellowSir

The solution is obvious, bring all the troops home, let the foreigners go ahead and kill each other off, then when they're all dead, go back and take the oil. Why should this country be the world's police? And of course it's easy to send someone off to die when you're not under threat yourself, and "support" a "war" 5000 miles away from your backyard.....


Nobody is asking the USA to be the world police. Quite the opposite from what I can tell.  This self proclaimed role has nothing to do with keeping any peace or policing the world but advancing the interests of corporate America.


OK. So we pull out of Iraq. We pull out of Afghanistan. We pull out of Korea. And we finally pull our troops out of Germany (even though the government there wants the American troops there) and Japan. Do you have any clue the number of people that would die and the number of countries that would fall? Because we sure as hell know the European Union doesn't have the balls or the manpower to fill the void. You will have a global power vacuum...not to mention the effect on the world economy.

I agree. I dont want the US spread all over the world. It wouldn't bother me any to have the US pull out of some of these places. Except the fact that there is no one else to fill the void. The EU is a joke. The UN is an even bigger joke. So who's going to fill the gap? Answer me that! And no, I do not trust the UN. Al-Queda blew up the UN building in Baghdad and the UN ran out of there with their tail between their legs. If they can't stand up to a few thousand people with AKs and homemade bombs...what makes you think they can protect large populations of people better than the US military against entire rogue nations like North Korea or Iran?

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 1:42:06 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

OK. So we pull out of Iraq. We pull out of Afghanistan. We pull out of Korea. And we finally pull our troops out of Germany (even though the government there wants the American troops there) and Japan. Do you have any clue the number of people that would die and the number of countries that would fall? Because we sure as hell know the European Union doesn't have the balls or the manpower to fill the void. You will have a global power vacuum...not to mention the effect on the world economy.

I agree. I dont want the US spread all over the world. It wouldn't bother me any to have the US pull out of some of these places. Except the fact that there is no one else to fill the void. The EU is a joke. The UN is an even bigger joke. So who's going to fill the gap? Answer me that! And no, I do not trust the UN. Al-Queda blew up the UN building in Baghdad and the UN ran out of there with their tail between their legs. If they can't stand up to a few thousand people with AKs and homemade bombs...what makes you think they can protect large populations of people better than the US military against entire rogue nations like North Korea or Iran?


What countries will fall to who? This idea that there are countries full of potential Ghengis Khans ready to swoop down on defenceless countries doesn't stand up to even the most superficial scrutiny. The only reason I can think why some Americans go on and on about imminent danger to western civilisation is Strausian philosophy of keeping the population in a constant state of fear so they conform American ideology.

The European Union doesn't want to fill any void. When it comes to empires the Europeans have seen it, done it and got the tee shirt and I am not aware of any hunger to do it again. While Europe doesn't have the military to go on endless jollies around the world, it has enough to defend itself.

As for Iran, just read its history, you will then see that its behaviour towards the west is not mad and irrational but quite rational. It is the west that keeps interfering with Iran, not Iran that keeps interfering with the west. Who do you think overthrew its democratic government in 1953? Who do you think supported its hated government that kept in power by torturing its own people? Who is N. Korea going to invade? China doesn't want instability on its doorstep but they won't be seen to kow tow to the US demands, left to itself, China will keep a rein on N.Korea.

Al Queda wasn't even in Iraq until the invasion so that shows how good the invasion has been in fighting Al Queda!!!!

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 2:39:37 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Must say this quote really struck me:

>“A private who loses a rifle suffers far greater consequences than a general who loses a war,” he wrote.<


I read the New Yorker too, and that line also caught my eye.

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it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 4:04:00 PM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		I feel that most American want no part of being the world's police force. Iraq wasn't fought for this ... it was fought for monitary gain and revenge.

I think it's nieve to say that other nations don't want the United States to be the world's police. What they want, is for America to be the world's police when they want her to, and not be, when they don't. The rest of the world is just as self serving as America is. American just has a big army that allows this self interest to manifest in war. I find this unfortunate ... but also find the holier than thou opinons to be living proof of the self serving nature of all nations.

On point, isn't it true that Generals start out as Lieutenants, and at some point have left themself open to the risk of the common soldier?

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 4:55:44 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I think it's naive to say that other nations don't want the United States to be the world's police. What they want, is for America to be the world's police when they want her to, and not be, when they don't. The rest of the world is just as self serving as America is. American just has a big army that allows this self interest to manifest in war. I find this unfortunate ... but also find the holier than thou opinons to be living proof of the self serving nature of all nations.


Which is exactly the argument that NG has made to me about US foreign policy.  That it should reflect the interest of other nations more than the national interests of the US.

And he doesn't see the hypocrisy in it, at all.

FirmKY

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