Sometimes Free Speech Is a Bad Thing (Full Version)

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CrimsonMoan -> Sometimes Free Speech Is a Bad Thing (5/12/2007 10:09:38 PM)

If you are aware of what the Westboro Baptist Church out of Kansas is all about this will not surprise you too much. I wanted to smack my roommate for listening to the whole thing.

http://www.consumptionjunction.com/content/detail.asp?ID=69227&type=1&page=1

For those of you who need a more in depth look at this old fart his children and their "church" then visit www.godhatesfags.com

I am all for saying whats on your mind and whats in your hearts but I am sorry if god is talking through this man then christianity is doomed.(not a knock at christians just this bastard) Anyone who takes a tragedy and uses it as a platform for hate speech does not derserve the right to go about saying what he wishes.

Quick Facts About Rev. Phelps

1. Disbared for lawyer misconduct
2. Wife and Child beater (3 of his children have come forward for a book about thier family)
3. Used his children for several acts of fraud including selling for supposed "charities"

Now WBC has been out of the news for awhile. The last time beign when they were picketing funerals of fallen US soldiers and severals states passing laws stating they are not allowed with in certain distances of funeral services, memorial services, etc. Now with the recent VTech shootings they are comming out from the rock they call their church and home to aggravate people with decency and common sense.

My beef with them however goes further back. Any las Vegas residence may remember when Las Vegas Acadet had the production of the Marlboro Project going on. This was the play about Matthew Shepard. These..."christians" came all the way from KANSAS just to protest outside of the high school. If not for the fact that Las Vegas Metro police were on hand they more than likely would have been assulted by the various students and adults out in support.

There is Free Speech and then there is Hate Speech.




DomKen -> RE: Sometimes Free Speech Is a Bad Thing (5/12/2007 10:15:48 PM)

Any time Phelps and his "flock" show up in your area get a camcorder and go tape them. They apparently have gotten away with numerous crimes due to their never being anything other than "biased" witnesses and their reputation for litiginousness. A few years back one of the Phelps' grandsons was convicted of assault for spitting on a counter demonstrator due to it being caught on tape.




CrimsonMoan -> RE: Sometimes Free Speech Is a Bad Thing (5/12/2007 10:25:02 PM)

Yyyyeeeeaaahhhh that would be damn near impossible. the only the camcorder would catch would be me stomping one of them into the ground. You know a group should just go camp outside of their church/home and protest see how they like it.




GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Sometimes Free Speech Is a Bad Thing (5/12/2007 11:08:01 PM)

I had just finished reading the "Rosie gittin down" thread, and then came over here.
I have just pointed out the similarities to the two discussions on the other thread. And I am sure I will get a barrage on both discussions as to why these are two completely different things.  But I don't believe the issues are different...
Rosie O"Donnel is being defended (even by Republicans - *gasp*!) for her right to "free speech.  Yet she is spouting very hurtful and distressing things on her tv show, The View, each and every day!.  She doesn't state it, she shouts it!  Is much of what she says is supposed to be "free speech" but when a Christian wacko, with whom I do not agree in the least, takes his opportunities to protest what he beleives to be true, it is "hate speech"? 
I believe both can incite to riot and end up physically harming people. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoan

Yyyyeeeeaaahhhh that would be damn near impossible. the only the camcorder would catch would be me stomping one of them into the ground. You know a group should just go camp outside of their church/home and protest see how they like it.

 
Stomping them into the ground?  Is that okay, because you believe this is what they deserve?  Because you don't agree?  Or because you assume that you should get your licks in before they get their licks in?
I am just wondering about all this?
Why is one acceptable but not the other? 




Shanghaid -> RE: Sometimes Free Speech Is a Bad Thing (5/13/2007 3:16:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoan

If you are aware of what the Westboro Baptist Church out of Kansas is all about this will not surprise you too much. I wanted to smack my roommate for listening to the whole thing.

http://www.consumptionjunction.com/content/detail.asp?ID=69227&type=1&page=1


Wow.

I mean, holy shit he's offensive. His suggesting it would be better for 30,000 people to have died at V-Tech?

I couldn't watch it all either.

I'm... quite literally speechless.

SH'd




CrimsonMoan -> RE: Sometimes Free Speech Is a Bad Thing (5/13/2007 6:22:17 AM)

Ok Yeah Rosie does go off the deep end but not ONCE has Rosie EVER EVER anythign along the lines of what Rev Phelps and crew has. The man wants to say that homosexuality and that fact that this nation is more or less accepting it is the reason for every bad thing in th elast couple of years. KAtrina, Soldier deaths in Iraq, Vtech shooting.

I am sorry but most ppl who spout nonsense don't move to want to be violent. They do. Especially comming from a family full of military personal. I am sorry but this man is lucky that the cops are around when they go to funerals because greif does strange things to people. I know for a fact I am not the only one with that sentiment.

I am never said what Rosie doe sis right personally I tend to overlook anythign to do with her because she does go off the deep end sometimes with flair. My whole point was that takign a tradgedy like this is wrong and anybody who does so has no heart.




Alumbrado -> RE: Sometimes Free Speech Is a Bad Thing (5/13/2007 6:34:24 AM)

.

Using the term 'hate speech' loosely to cover speech that we hate, diminishes the concept that there is a very narrow set of criminal activities involving the spoken word.

Disbarred or no, Phelps is still lawyer (and coward) enough to stay safely on the legal side of that line.




Termyn8or -> RE: Sometimes Free Speech Is a Bad Thing (5/13/2007 6:53:58 AM)

God hates fags ? When did he tell them ? The 'fags' I know are cool people, one of them became a councilman.

Like abortion clinic bombers. If you don't like abortions, DON'T HAVE ONE. If you think god hates fags, don't be one.

I think in time this problem will solve itself, well kinda. Sooner or later they are going to step on the wrong toes and either the government or the JDL will get them. The kind of people who incite their followers to disrupt funerals and stuff like that are not likely to be squeaky clean. You've seen it before, the most voiciferous moralists getting caught in brothels, preachers caught doing little boys and so forth. In time, skeletons leak out of the closet, and it is their turn. Anyone who doesn't believe it, look at all the TV preachers. More than one have gone to jail.

You can thank westboro for one thing, I won't wear out my shift key as much. I will no longer capitalize the word god. If these fucking people are against the war so much, what are they doing at funerals ? Go to Pennsylvania avenue ! They are so stupid, like if George raped my sister so I decide to shoot Fred. These Men gave the ultimate sacrifice and you feel the need to go fuck with their families ?

These people have no idea of cause and effect, and that is a big thing about religion.

Tell you what, as much of a Constitutionalist I am, a strong case can be made for making it illegal to indoctrinate children into religion. The first job of religion is to eliminate reason from the person's mind. The very first thing they do is to ask you to believe something they cannot prove.

If you are a person who has been moved somehow to have faith in YHVH, or Joshua bar Joseph as the Christ, more power to you, and I wish you well. But I knew better than to listen to a preacher when I was five.

A friend of mine has a saying "Is the Pope any closer to God than you or I ?".

Where is Westboro ? In NC or something ? Maybe it is time to fuck with them. There are plenty of legal things that can be done. Let's get the members' names and go disrupt their families' funerals. See how they like it. Things like that.

Calling all 'fags'. We need people, find out who these crass asses are, where they live and watch the paper for obituaries of their family members. Then we need a few good Men, with little or no criminal record, no big problems, able to travel and with some guts.

Then when one of their Parents die or something you go "help the family pay their respects", ha ha. I want to see them have an indoor burial. Let's see how they like it. All the nasty shit they do, do unto them.

I think that was a quite profound placement of the word 'unto'. :-)

This should all be perfectly on the up and up. They have a right to express their opinion, but then should should others, right ?

BTW, did anyone listen to that clip on good speakers ? They had people singing, like a choir in the background. Mixed down in the background, but I heard it. That is a subliminal technique. Not much better than a 30 second TV commercial. But people fall for it every day. And people bitched about Hitler. Beam me up.

T




agirl -> RE: Sometimes Free Speech Is a Bad Thing (5/13/2007 9:42:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Tell you what, as much of a Constitutionalist I am, a strong case can be made for making it illegal to indoctrinate children into religion. The first job of religion is to eliminate reason from the person's mind. The very first thing they do is to ask you to believe something they cannot prove.



*Indoctrinate* is the offending word. I am content to live my life, with my values, morals etc , including NO belief in God or gods. But my children, in my opinion, must have the choice to pick their own.......I will continue to express how I see things and it WILL have an impact on them but I will not insist, nor pressure them to adopt MY ways, thoughts and ideas. They are not my property to abuse this way. They attended a Church of England school and had the freedom to explore what THEY thought about God, as presented to them. They also looked up other religions on the internet and read about them. If they choose to believe in God then they expect to be questioned on that , just as they have questioned my disbelief.

One of them is a teenager and an A* Religious Education student, with no personal belief in God.

agirl




clipper -> RE: Sometimes Free Speech Is a Bad Thing (5/13/2007 8:18:56 PM)

free speech is only free if people you despise are allowed to state their opinions...




Sinergy -> RE: Sometimes Free Speech Is a Bad Thing (5/13/2007 8:27:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: clipper

free speech is only free if people you despise are allowed to state their opinions...


I despise their opinion.

I have no problem with the actual person. 

Sinergy




Dauric -> RE: Sometimes Free Speech Is a Bad Thing (5/13/2007 9:06:25 PM)

"I may disagree with what you say, but I will fight for the death for yuor right to say it."

As long as it doesn't rise to the level of inciting people to commit violence; the "Shouting "Fire" in a crowded theatre rule, I cannot fault it.

After all, if they have the right to say it, You and I have the right to call em idiots, point out the reasons that they are idiots, and even make a full-on interactive flash presentation that illustrates in gory detail the type and degree of idiots theat they are.

Then they can bitch about us having free speech.

$0.02,

Dauric




Vendaval -> RE: Sometimes Free Speech Is a Bad Thing (5/13/2007 10:21:44 PM)

General reply -
 
One of the great challenges with the Bill of Rights is being able to tolerate and endure
the likes of Phelps and his ilk until they finally committ an action that would cause them to be prosecuted. 


(grammar edit)




domiguy -> RE: Sometimes Free Speech Is a Bad Thing (5/13/2007 10:31:39 PM)

Yep it is something to celebrate that you live in a country where someone can "voice" their dissapointment by taking the flag, the very symbol of our country, and setting it aflame.  On Fox News I saw an interview they conducted with a woman who said the tsunamis were an act of vengeance from God because he is pissed at the Muslims....You just have to laugh.




HutchGarahl -> RE: Sometimes Free Speech Is a Bad Thing (5/13/2007 11:22:07 PM)

I don't know what bible that guy is reading from, but no where in my bible does it state God hates fags. My bible says God love all. That guy has so terribly missinterprited the bible in so many ways. Now i'm no pro when is comes to the bible, but I do know that God or whatever people may call their higher power is loving to all and does not in anyway condone murder of anyone. That guy needs a good asskicking!




bigskycountry -> RE: Sometimes Free Speech Is a Bad Thing (5/13/2007 11:55:08 PM)

I will never speak to censure anyone's position or retorts. For, you see, dramatic response will always serve to polarize an audience, which is its reason for being. Allow all to expound. those that speak from a cryptic place will be marginalized and used as fodder or ad hominem critique. Those that speak via propaganda will never last (tyrants never do). Those that reflect the views of a large demographic will be the ones that matter.




Termyn8or -> RE: Sometimes Free Speech Is a Bad Thing (5/14/2007 12:51:23 AM)

Vend, hang on one sec.......

agirl, how does the word indoctrinate offend ? I meant no offence. But I do believe I used the correct word, we may have to agree to disagree. So be it.

V, so you lay in wait until he does something to shut him down ? Is that your wish ?

Do you have the desire to silence hjim ? If so that is wrong. Let him spew his bullshit, in fact let him get more radical so his followers leave him, but don't silence him.

I am going to go out on a limb here, and I don't want to alieanate anyone, but I will give my opinion. Let's see how this gets taken.

Homosexuality is wrong. It is not wrong because of any bible or bullshit, or that some people think it is gross. It is wrong because it does not produce offspring and is not conducive to human life. I think homosexuals have a trait, a characteristic that some would define as a defect, but we do not know it is not nature's way of selection of some sort. Homosexuals are not bad or evil, these concepts are actually foreign to me, somewhat. They need to live their lives in the way the see fit, and you only go round once.

Do I think it is right ? No. Fact. And I do judge, but there are factors not yet brought into the mix. Personally I do not describe it as a defect. Perhaps an abberation, but it is their preference. If they engage in this, they will not contribute to the biomass, but so what. Perhaps this abberation is actually the human race's response to extant conditions.

There are indeed too many people in the world, in a way homosexuality helps us. If the world's population were say one billion, we would want to encourage as much heterosexual copulation as possible. But then what of us who delve into deviant sex acts ? I mean including oral sex, sex with toys, whatever. All of it will not result in an offspring, so many of us are just as guilty if there is any guilt to be had.

So if you believe these religious assholes I guess somehow you must have normal sex only with your Wife, never jack off, never eat her out, and somehow impregnate her without incurring any pleasure, for either of you. Can you smell Puritan ?

Y'know, even though it goes against my nature, at least my preferences, if they keep this shit up I might just go bi, just to say "Go fuck yourself" to these assholes. I doubt it, but I am one of those people you do not dare.

How about we mobilize a movement to educate people about what religion really is, a control method. The Jehovah's Witnesses go door to door. Actually I am pleasant with them, reason being is that they are trying to do good. They might be misled, but I have seen them do nothing against Christian teachings.

This reverend fuckhead here, on the other hand. What happened to do unto others as you would have them do unto you ? And perhaps that is precisely what should happen.

And we got something they don't, BRAINS. We can do this without hate, we don't need blood on the street.

Let me tell yall this, a threat is supposed to be a deterrent. Carrying out the threat validates the deterrent. Exacting revenge for torts like this is supposed to teach. Not to punish.

I am not talking about mowing them down with an AK47, I am talking disrupting their funerals, making it waaaaaaaaay worse, especially for people who may have flown thousands of miles to be there. Fuck that one chance. The last chance. After all, they think it is OK to do that to others.

Get it ? But no anger. No physical hurt. No violence.

What do you think they'll do ? I can tell you, they will prove that we are better than them. They will prove that they are farther from Christianity then us agnostics, atheist etc. Let them prove it. If the cops come, well what happened ?

I cannot stress this enough, you do not raise your hand in anger to anyone when it involves opinion, EVER. EVER. When you do you lose, you admit you lost when you do it.

And you never lie. I do not lie because to lie would be to admit that someone is out there to whom I have to lie. I'll tell you all about what the fuck I am all about. I don't have to lie to anyone except once in a while the government. I don't have to lie to you because you are not more powerful than me. And if you are I will not admit it. See why I do not lie ?

And let me tell you about the rest of it too. Constitution. Yelling FIRE in a crowded theater. Just how much money do you make doing that ?

If you're getting the gist of this you're getting 'result based action'. That is the cause and effect thing which is missing in people's beliefs today, and indeed their lives. Life is exceedingly unfair. It almost seems the harder you work the less you make. Congressmen make how much ? Just what is their work schedule. President having a blow job when he at work ? But that's OK with some people.

How freedom of speech applies is a complicated thing, I will illustrate.
(Mod11, I assure you this is not for real)

Deborah K. Smythe
1670 E. Bottom Rd
Lakewood, NV, 14673
SSN 255-60-8872
DL N15575234
CC 4128-0031-5127-4484
CC 5424-4422-0013-1175
C rating 785 (wow)
LIC DHL7383, red Ford Ranger, 2005.
EMP Till's factory, POS shift manager
EDU Lakewood HS, BIT trade school, ongoing
PH 344-432-6578
CELL 344-667-9987
FAX 344-983-4271

Now folks, I made ALL of that up, but what if it were a real person ? I assure you it is not but what if it were ? I have freedom of speech right ?

Do you get it ? It is a matter of decency. Freedom of speech, well, if Debbie was a real person that would be a most eggregious misuse of free speech, or any type of media. That is unacceptable to me, even the staunch Constitutionalist I am, that violates that person's (if they existed) right to privacy.

If you want to sleep tonight, read no further.

That guy that called you the other day trying to sell you new siding for your house probably has most of that info on the screen when the computer automatically dials your number. He might know how much you owe on it as well, along with your interest rate.

So who are these people who go and disrupt military family's funerals ? Because when their Mom dies, I want to be there to pay my respects. I'll tell them how good her pussy was. I will tear the place up, and I will bring bodygaurds who are literally tough enough to defend without harming.

Try me.

I mean you just don't do that. Try that shit at one of my people's funerals and you are going in the hole too, literally. It may be out of my hands. I mean, my Parents are quite loved by my closer friends, whom I call 'chosen family'. If a Parent of mine dies and we are all at the funeral and someone shows up and disrupts it, I won't lift a finger. I won't have to. They'll pulverize whoever it is, even a group. I would not be able to stop them.

See that is one of the reasons I don't go to my girl in AZ (she is a millionaire), I will not leave this. I try to avoid pity, really, but sometimes....... I see people don't have this, people who work twice as hard physically as me for a third of the money, people who have noone to turn to.

And my friends are tight. They will go to westboro and do my bidding, I know it, I have no doubt. And they are very strong people. I got a couple in mind, I can't afford to send everyone. All I need is names, dates and times. And nothing illegal. I would not ask my chosen family to get in a problem with the law unless the need was very severe, this is not the case here. We got some 60 year old fuckhead who thinks he's a preacher, who has found a critical mass of total assholes. He is nothing to us even with all his money.

You see money cannot defeat money. In the past I have cost an asshole about ½ million dollars in ten minutes. The money means nothing.

I have just realized the immensity of this post, and I kinda apologize for overwhelming you.

T




sorokahdeen -> RE: Sometimes Free Speech Is a Bad Thing (5/14/2007 1:10:49 AM)

I don't know that I agree with everything you said, but I think one of your points is, at best, weak.

"Those that speak propaganda will never last (tyrants never do). Those that reflect the views of a large demographic will always be the one's that matter."

Okay, now, let's parse this.

"Those that speak... (tryants never do)."

One way of looking at this statement is through historical example. There are Roman examples that are fairly well known with Julius Caesar heading up the list in a very dramatic fashion ("sic semper tyranis"), but even this example is weak since Caesar was assassinated but his political allies and followers (Marc Antony and Octavian) not only came to ascend to power but triumphed in the civil war that followed that ascension leaving behind them permanant change of government replacing an oligarchy/representative democracy with a set of imperial dynasties that lasted until the fall of the Empire.

The modern day is no more hopeful for the notion that tyranny is the enemy of longevity. In many cases, its depends on the tyrant, his position in the world and the scale of his ambitions. Hitler's Nazi regime was destroyed but only after fighting a war on multiple fronts against several industrialized nations for half a decade. Had it been ruled by men who were slightly less visionary and determined (i.e., "psychotic"), it is easy to imagine them consolidating their hold over their conquests and bargaining for peace at the height of their strength leading to a situation where their heirs and assigns were still in power to this day.

When it comes to other dictators of the 20th century, little more than a glance is needed to see that the record is less than hopeful:

Generalissimo Francisco Franco of Spain:

(4 December 1892–20 November 1975), Held power in Spain for thirty-six years and died in bed.

Josef Stalin (Josef Vasarionovich Djugashvili):

Ruled the Soviet Union for approximately 25 years (1928-1953), killed millions of Soviet Citizens with misguided economic initiatives that led to widespread starvation; purged the Soviet officer corps, destroying Russia's military readiness against the Nazi threat and imprisoned millions of soviet citizens. In a word, he sucked, and, like Franco, he died, in power, and in bed.


Josip Broz Tito (1892-1980):

After leading a successful partisan movement against the Nazis during the second world war, Tito, either led or was influential in Yugoslavia's post-war period; during which time he held his nation together by force force of arms while surviving multiple assassination attempts by Soviet intelligence, creating socialist ties to third-world countries. He finally died following treatment for circulatory system problems that led to the amputation of one of his legs at the age of 88.

With all this in mind, I guess it may be the case that tyrants and dictators never last but so far, the evidence is less than convincing.

Just a thought.



:-)









LadyEllen -> RE: Sometimes Free Speech Is a Bad Thing (5/14/2007 2:38:01 AM)

We have laws in the UK which control free speech; one can say and publish whatever one wants, as long as one does not design to induce hatred or violence for another person or group. I would suggest that this law if effective in the US, would catch Mr Phelps and his flock, for inducing hatred for homosexuals.

Since Mr Phelps and his flock can publicly hold the position that "God hates fags", it must surely be equitable in law to demonstrate on the grounds that (for instance);

"God hates blacks" or
"God hates Jews" or

Although I would suspect very strongly, that anyone erecting placards to either effect would rapidly find their demonstration brought to an end by one way or another.

Why is it then, acceptable to promote homophobic hatred in the US, but not acceptable to promote race hate or anti-Semitism in a public place? Or is it acceptable?

E




Vendaval -> RE: Sometimes Free Speech Is a Bad Thing (5/14/2007 2:49:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Vend, hang on one sec.......

V, so you lay in wait until he does something to shut him down ? Is that your wish ? 

I would love to see more people intervening between him and
the mourners at funerals, keeping his group away from those
who grieve.


Do you have the desire to silence hjim ? If so that is wrong. Let him spew his bullshit, in fact let him get more radical so his followers leave him, but don't silence him.

No, I think he serves as a great example of hatred and stupidity;
let him have his bully pulpit and personal propaganda


I have just realized the immensity of this post, and I kinda apologize for overwhelming you.

T

Termyn8or, I don't know how to address the rest of your post. 
Sorry laddie, you have me a bit confused with all of that.  [&:]
 
 
Vendaval





(edited 'cause I have bandages on my fingers from an accident with an Exacto knife, don't ask!)




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